Romans 2 - gentiles are the ones described as keeping the LAW of Moses

BobRyan · Apr 5, 2020

Since most people here will freely agree that God's Ten Commandments written in stone in Exodus 20 are included in the "LAW of Moses" - I make the statement in the subject title.

Which means it is " a sin" even for Christian - even for gentiles -- to "take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7

In the writings of Paul -- gentiles come in "many flavors" --

A. some are pagans who worship only pagan gods as Paul describes in Galatians 4 worshiping that "which is not god at all".

B. Other gentiles are like those in Acts 13, and Acts 18:4 worshiping God "every Sabbath" in the Synagogues -- and accepting the Gospel preaching of Paul to the point of request that the Gospel message be presented to them "AGAIN the next Sabbath" Acts 13

So notice how interesting it is that Paul describes gentiles ask KEEPING the LAW in Romans 2.

13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

So then in that case of the first group of gentiles above - as shown in Rom 2:26-29 Paul describes the work of the Holy Spirit on their heart such that the LAW of God is written on the heart just as the New Covenant predicts "I will write My LAW on their heart" Jeremiah 31:31-34.

It is the Holy Spirit that causes the New Birth - the writes the LAW on the heart, that "Convicts the World of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16

there it is - the NEW covenant where "God writes His LAW on heart and mind" Jer 31:31-34

And Paul ends Romans 3 this way "What do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

And Paul says to the gentile church at Corinth "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Commandments having the "first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 as the 5th commandment.

For "The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" under the Gospel.

========

Then what advantage has the JEW?

Rom 3:
What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.

Paganism did not give us the bible - rather God gave it to us through His prophets which of course - were Jews... not pagans.

BobRyan · Apr 5, 2020

And of course the Bible says
"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 KJV

Just as James 2 also affirms even in the NASB that sin IS transgression of the LAW

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

---
It is the Holy Spirit that causes the New Birth - the writes the LAW on the heart, that "Convicts the World of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16

=============================

Romans 10 "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the WORD of God" KJV, NKJV, YLT, KJ21

(Some argue that the Word of Christ is not the Word of God - but the rest of us know better)

John 16
"12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak;

Turns out... that works for "both gentiles and jews"

HARK! · Apr 5, 2020

I like where this thread is going.

Aussie Pete · Apr 5, 2020

BobRyan said:
Since most people here will freely agree that God's Ten Commandments written in stone in Exodus 20 are included in the "LAW of Moses" - I make the statement in the subject title.

Which means it is " a sin" even for Christian - even for gentiles -- to "take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7

In the writings of Paul -- gentiles come in "many flavors" -- some are pagans who worship only pagan gods as Paul describes in Galatians 4 worshiping that "which is not god at all".

Other gentiles are like those in Acts 13, and Acts 18:4 worshiping God "every Sabbath" in the Synagogues -- and accepting the Gospel preaching of Paul to the point of request that the Gospel message be presented to them "AGAIN the next Sabbath" Acts 13

So notice how interesting it is that Paul describes gentiles ask KEEPING the LAW in Romans 2.

13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

there it is - the NEW covenant where "God writes His LAW on heart and mind" Jer 31:31-34

And Paul ends Romans 3 this way "What do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

And Paul says to the gentile church at Corinth "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

========

Then what advantage has the JEW?

Rom 3:
What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.

Paganism did not give us the bible - rather God gave it to us through His prophets which of course - were Jews... not pagans.

You misinterpret the reference to the gentiles and the law. How can people keep a law which they know nothing about? Every society has its laws and moral standards. Every individual is born with a conscience. Unbelievers follow their own conscience or violate their conscience apart from the law.

God's commandments are, as you say, written on the hearts of those who are born again. Your obsession with the law is at odds with God's word. I'm saved by grace, not some legalistic observation of going to church on Saturday instead of Sunday. I'm saved by the life of Christ, not by not working on Saturdays. I'm led by the Spirit because I am a son of God, not because I'm vegetarian.

I note that you avoid quoting 1 Timothy 1 on this subject.

"8But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted."

Galatians 3:24
"Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith."

I've come to Christ. Outward observance of the law is no longer applicable. The temple in Jerusalem has been destroyed. It is no longer possible to observe the law. I have the inner guidance that leads me in the way that God wants me to go. Along with most mainstream Christians, I have no difficulty going to church on Sundays. My conscience is entirely clear.

BobRyan · Apr 5, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
You misinterpret the reference to the gentiles and the law. How can people keep a law which they know nothing about?

The OP gives TWO examples of gentiles from the writings of Paul

============================

In the writings of Paul -- gentiles come in "many flavors" --

A. some are pagans who worship only pagan gods as Paul describes in Galatians 4 worshiping that "which is not god at all".

B. Other gentiles are like those in Acts 13, and Acts 18:4 worshiping God "every Sabbath" in the Synagogues -- and accepting the Gospel preaching of Paul to the point of request that the Gospel message be presented to them "AGAIN the next Sabbath" Acts 13

=========================================

Clearly the second group have access to scripture.

But in the case of the first group Paul describes the work of the Holy Spirit on their heart such that the LAW of God is written on the heart just as the New Covenant predicts " will write My LAW on their heart" Jeremiah 31:31-34.

It is the Holy Spirit that causes the New Birth - the writes the LAW on the heart, that "Convicts the World of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16

==================

BTW - another interesting point brought out in this thread later on.

pasifika said:
Notice, the covenant where Christ the seed comes was through the covenant with Abraham....Also the law was added or introduce 430 years after that covenant, so it wasn't before as you claim.....

The LAW existed since Eden -- but writing it on stone-tablets and the thundering of it from Sinai does not happen until the Exodus.

"sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 "by definition" - even in the NT.
yet in Genesis 4 God tells Cain Gen 4: "7 If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”"

It would be a sin for Cain to kill Able. A transgression of the LAW of God.
Rom 4:15 "Where there is no LAW there is no transgresson" no sin no violation of LAW.
Rom 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

pasifika · Apr 5, 2020

BobRyan said:
Since most people here will freely agree that God's Ten Commandments written in stone in Exodus 20 are included in the "LAW of Moses" - I make the statement in the subject title.

Which means it is " a sin" even for Christian - even for gentiles -- to "take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7

In the writings of Paul -- gentiles come in "many flavors" --

A. some are pagans who worship only pagan gods as Paul describes in Galatians 4 worshiping that "which is not god at all".

B. Other gentiles are like those in Acts 13, and Acts 18:4 worshiping God "every Sabbath" in the Synagogues -- and accepting the Gospel preaching of Paul to the point of request that the Gospel message be presented to them "AGAIN the next Sabbath" Acts 13

So notice how interesting it is that Paul describes gentiles ask KEEPING the LAW in Romans 2.

13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

there it is - the NEW covenant where "God writes His LAW on heart and mind" Jer 31:31-34

And Paul ends Romans 3 this way "What do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

And Paul says to the gentile church at Corinth "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

========

Then what advantage has the JEW?

Rom 3:
What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.

Paganism did not give us the bible - rather God gave it to us through His prophets which of course - were Jews... not pagans.

Hello, in Romans 2:14 Paul states that the Gentiles who do Not have the law.. can you explain what is that mean?
If you do not have "something" doesn't it mean you don't have it OR it wasn't given to you in the first place? ?

expos4ever · Apr 5, 2020

BobRyan said:
And of course the Bible says
"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 KJV

Nope.

It says this when the original greek is respected:

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness

Since this has pointed out to you ad nauseum, how is the reader not to conclude that you are engaged in an intentional effort to mislead?

expos4ever · Apr 5, 2020

pasifika said:
Hello, in Romans 2:14 Paul states that the Gentiles who do Not have the law.. can you explain what is that mean?

You are, of course, correct. It is always interesting to see how people try to mangle this passage to make it say something it does not.

BobRyan · Apr 5, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
God's commandments are, as you say, written on the hearts of those who are born again. Your obsession with the law is at odds with God's word.

On the contrary - it is God's Word that declares the LAW to be "written on the heart" under the New Covenant Jer 31:31-34.. So "yeah" that is how "saved by grace works" since as Paul points out "there is only ONE Gospel" Gal 1:6-9 and that ONE Gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8 -- the New Covenant with the LAW written on the heart being a key part of it just as Jeremiah 31 points out.

Aussie Pete said:
I'm saved by grace,

Good for you... and of course .. ."so say we all" - same Gospel since Adam to this very day.

Aussie Pete said:
I note that you avoid quoting 1 Timothy 1 on this subject.

I also did not quote Genesis 3 - and pretty much a zillion other chapters... does not mean I was "avoiding it".

Galatians 3:24
"Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith."

That is the role of the LAW as it "condemns all the WORLD" as sinners according to Rom 3:19-20 for 'ALL have sinned" Rom 3:23 and of course "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 by its very definition.

But for the SAVED Saints - the born-again Christian (OT and NT) the "Law is written on the heart" under the New Covenant - Jer 31:31-34 Heb 8:6-11

Romans 8:4-11 reminds us that the wicked lost person "does not submit to the LAW of God --- neither indeed CAN they" - by contrast to the saints who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

For "THIS IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

Bringing us back again to Rom 3:31 "What - do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

Aussie Pete said:
The temple in Jerusalem has been destroyed. It is no longer possible to observe the law.

On the contrary

Christ claims that we are to keep the Commandments. That includes the ones where "the first commandment WITH a promise " is the 5th commandment. Eph 6:2

Matt 19
But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ Ex 20
‘You shall not commit adultery,’ Ex 20
‘You shall not steal,’ Ex 20
‘You shall not bear false witness,’ Ex 20
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ Ex 20:12
and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ Lev 19:18

All the examples Christ gives are from the "Law of Moses" (He does not include "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 but that also is included never-the-less)

swordsman1 · Apr 5, 2020

If gentiles without the scriptures keep the law why are they not instinctively prompted to observe the sabbath?

swordsman1 · Apr 5, 2020

BobRyan said:
And of course the Bible says
"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 KJV

Actually the Bible doesn't say that. That verse is a mistranslation by the KJV. The words "transgression" and "the Law" are not in the original Greek. This is what it actually says, as every other translation agrees:

ESV "sin is lawlessness"
NASB "sin is lawlessness"
NIV "sin is lawlessness"
RSV "sin is lawlessness"
etc, etc
Even the NKJV recognises the error "sin is lawlessness."

Lawlessness means the state of operating without any form of law. It has nothing to do with the Ten Commandments.

BobRyan · Apr 5, 2020

And of course the Bible says
"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 KJV

Just as James 2 also affirms even in the NASB

James 2 (NASB)
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

---
It is the Holy Spirit that causes the New Birth - the writes the LAW on the heart, that "Convicts the World of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16

expos4ever said:
Nope.

It says this when the original greek is respected:

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness

Since this has pointed out to you ad nauseum, how is the reader not to conclude that you are engaged in an intentional effort to mislead?

You are of course free to pursue that "distinction without a difference" claiming that the KJV is wrong in 1 John 3:4 - only to have that door "slammed" on that idea - in James 2 as the "details" show in the case above - the very thing you are objecting to. This is been pointed out to you many times... and it is ... "irrefutable" .

Try responding to the point next time instead of just "circling back"

swordsman1 said:
Actually the Bible doesn't say that. .

Well lets check KJV, NKJV, NASB, YLT in James 2 showing the "very detail" you claim the Bible cannot possibly teach.

James 2 - NKJV
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Once again - sin is transgression of the LAW shown to you over and over in James 2... proving that your argument in 1 John 3:4 against the KJV is a "distinction without a difference"... once again.

pasifika · Apr 5, 2020

expos4ever said:
You are, of course, correct. It is always interesting to see how people try to mangle this passage to make it say something it does not.

Well, if I do not have "something", doesn't it means I do not have that "something"? OR I wasn't given that "something" in the first place?...trying to understand Romans 2:14

BobRyan · Apr 5, 2020

swordsman1 said:
If gentiles without the scriptures keep the law why are they not instinctively prompted to observe the sabbath?

Are you quoting God , scripture, Romans 2? -- or do you think you are just "quoting me"??

are you asking why the pagan gentiles are not "just as informed" about the LAW of God as the "believers in God" in Acts 13, Acts 18:4 - gentiles who read scripture and attend Sabbath services?? seriously?

expos4ever · Apr 5, 2020

BobRyan said:
there it is - the NEW covenant where "God writes His LAW on heart and mind" Jer 31:31-34

No one is disputing that God writes His Law on the hearts of believers. What we are disputing is the highly untenable position you have implicitly adopted - that this "writing on the heart" essentially entails memorizing the Laws.

This does not make sense - the image of writing something on the heart goes beyond the (silly) notion of just memorizing the rules. As Paul points out, there is something deeper going on - the Spirit has taken up residence in the heart of the believer and leads them. To suggest that having the Law written on our heart means we have to effectively mentally recall the written Law completely strips the Spirit of its stated role. And again, this text poses an enormous challenge for you:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

swordsman1 · Apr 5, 2020

BobRyan said:
Are you quoting God , scripture, Romans 2? -- or do you think you are just "quoting me"??

are you asking why the pagan gentiles are not "just as informed" about the LAW of God as the "believers in God" in Acts 13, Acts 18:4 - gentiles who read scripture and attend Sabbath services?? seriously?

You think the gentiles without the Law have the 10 commandments written on their heart right?
So why are they not instinctively prompted to observe the sabbath?

GospelS · Apr 5, 2020

pasifika said:
Well, if I do not have "something", doesn't it means I do not have that "something"? OR I wasn't given that "something" in the first place?...trying to understand Romans 2:14

I think it is clear. Though you don’t have the law written in letter, unknowingly you are actually keeping it because it is written in your conscience/heart.

expos4ever · Apr 5, 2020

Hey Bob - do you think if you keep posting a faulty translation of 1 John 3:4 over and over, the original greek will get tired of being abused and cave in to your demands?

Come on, man. Play fair

coffee4u · Apr 5, 2020

swordsman1 said:
You think the gentiles without the Law have the 10 commandments written on their heart right?
So why are they not instinctively prompted to observe the sabbath?

It isn't the ten commandments that are written on our hearts, this is where you are not understanding what is meant by God's law on our hearts. It is much wider and deeper than the 10 written commandments. They were given to people without the leading of the Holy Spirit, they were short and to the point because they had to be. For an example, if someone has God's laws on their heart they should be able to discern if something is sinful, they don't need a law to say "Don't steal" they should know in their heart that stealing is wrong. The 10 written laws were in fact far easier to keep than what we are called to.

"So why are they not instinctively prompted to observe the sabbath?"
Because we are to observe/think on/worship God every day.
1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

BobRyan · Apr 5, 2020

Here is Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

And it is exactly the same in Hebrews 8 - no change at all

swordsman1 said:
You think the gentiles without the Law have the 10 commandments written on their heart right?
So why are they not instinctively prompted to observe the sabbath?

Why do you respond to me like I wrote Jeremiah 31??
Your argument "is with the text"

Romans 2 - gentiles are the ones described as keeping the LAW of Moses

Junior Member

Junior Member

שמע

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

A Daughter of Zion Seeking Her Father in Heaven!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Similar threads