Trusting apologists

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I could have made the exact same post if I thought Christianity was false. The OP is claiming that if a belief system is infiltrated and dominated by untrustworthy leaders then the original belief system is lost, or voided, or at least that’s how I understood the OP.

No. You misinterpreted it.

That can be true for some things, but it’s not true for the scriptures.

Well, no, it wouldn't be true of anything. If my science teacher is a rapist, his science still might be spot-on. But... he probably doesn't have the Holy Spirit on tap. That was what factored into my point.
 
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zippy2006

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Because...?

Because I don't think that inference follows from your premises, and because I don't think apologists are necessarily religious leaders. Apologists play with logic, solve puzzles, and answer theoretical objections. Religious leaders are preachers and guides with a penchant for leading large groups. There can be overlap, but in many cases there is not.

But if an apologist takes the discussion to a topic that I'm not familiar with, what do I do? Do I trust that his information is accurate? Or does the conversation simply end because I can't verify his claims?

In that scenario I would generally hold his claim in abeyance and flag it in my mind as something that needs to be verified in the future. "Thanks I will have to think about that," or "I don't currently have enough information to know if your claim is true." Technically in situations such as those you are simply verifying broad lines and checking validity with the intention of eventually carrying out a closer analysis and coming to a conclusion about soundness.

So basically we're more or less in agreement, then?

On those points, yes.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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This is not addressed to me but since you say this trope is getting old, allow me to clarify that I stated "precisely 100% of the Catholic hierarchy either is a pedophile, or prefers to protect pedophiles instead of children, or is willing to remain with an institution which does this."



In the olden days it was taken as a given that priests were "better" than the rest of us laymen. Now, it seems, the reverse is true.

Atheists are of course not perfect, but I reckon you'd trust your kids being safe at an atheist hangout over a Catholic-run youth ministry.



I've never assumed you to be anything other than a law-abiding citizen. I'm simply saying that it is a matter of established fact that everyone in the Catholic hierarchy is involved in the rape scandal or is willing to accept paychecks from the institution.



Yes, Jesus did say that. Unfortunately, I don't see any truth in that.
Well, as the song says, "Two out of Three ain't bad!,"...............that is, in this case, this regards the points you've just made in your post above and are those on which we can more or less agree. I just happen to think that the last point is a very concerning point of truth from the mouth of Jesus, and it applies to anyone from the Pope on over to Hugh Hefner (not that I necessarily think the Pope and Hugh Hefner are in the same class, 'cuz I don't).
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Because I don't think that inference follows from your premises, and because I don't think apologists are necessarily religious leaders. Apologists play with logic, solve puzzles, and answer theoretical objections. Religious leaders are preachers and guides with a penchant for leading large groups. There can be overlap, but in many cases there is not.

OK. Well I consider apologists to be leaders because they seem to have followers. I had an irritating lunch with a Sye Ten Bruggencate fan/clone/whatever he was. Others like William Lane Craig are parroted all the time, so in that sense, I consider them to be leaders. It seems that you only consider a religious person to be a leader if they are a spiritual leader. Words are, of course, inherently meaningless so this is not much of a big issue.



In that scenario I would generally hold his claim in abeyance and flag it in my mind as something that needs to be verified in the future. "Thanks I will have to think about that," or "I don't currently have enough information to know if your claim is true." Technically in situations such as those you are simply verifying broad lines and checking validity with the intention of eventually carrying out a closer analysis and coming to a conclusion about soundness.



On those points, yes.

:oldthumbsup:
 
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John Helpher

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1.)a.) Let's assume that Christianity is actually the one true religion.

Okay, but that'd be like saying, "Let's assume that loving your neighbor and helping the poor are the one true religion".


1.)c.) Christianity formed after Jesus was crucified.

Not quite. Christianity is a set of values and principles. The old testament was like elementary school and the new testament is like graduation out into the big, wide world. There are some students who were more advanced than others so that even in the old testament they were practicing the values that Jesus taught.

4.) ??? [Answer: Most or all Christian apologists practice the teachings of Jesus].

5.) We can trust most or all modern Christian apologists.

Trust is earned. If you want to know who is behaving as, or commenting as a Christian, then the rational thing would be to compare that person's behavior and comments to the teachings of Jesus. But, in order to compare a person's behavior to what Jesus taught, you'd need to know what Jesus taught, and that's where most people are fairly ignorant. They think they have a pretty good idea of what Christianity is (e.g. going to church, reading your bible, giving your tithe, and following a myriad of various religious rituals), but they rarely know what Jesus commanded his followers to do or not do.
 
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cvanwey

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If you want to know who is behaving as, or commenting as a Christian, then the rational thing would be to compare that person's behavior and comments to the teachings of Jesus.

I really don't think this would solve the problem. Many "follow" Jesus's teaching. But the question remains; [which] teachings? He seems to elude to differing objectives, at differing times. 'You can go to hell' simply by one of each listed below - (so which one is it?):

- not helping others
- you didn't give away all your money
- you didn't keep Hebrew law
- you improperly taught a child
- you were rude to a disciple
- you don't believe He is the gateway

Or how about when he advocates for child abuse. Or how about when He endorses men>women. Not to mention passively being indifferent to slavery. Or maybe when He expresses that He will answer any/all petitionary/intercessory prayer... The list goes on....

From my estimation, Jesus is nothing less than the purveyor of confusion.


But, in order to compare a person's behavior to what Jesus taught, you'd need to know what Jesus taught, and that's where most people are fairly ignorant. They think they have a pretty good idea of what Christianity is

No. I think many people more-so pick and choose what they decide to abide by, and what to ignore, all directly from His teachings ;) The ultimate in cognitive dissonance.

(e.g. going to church, reading your bible, giving your tithe, and following a myriad of various religious rituals), but they rarely know what Jesus commanded his followers to do or not do.

Sure, but these people are just lazy when it comes to 'religion'; awaiting their weekly book report from the church leader, while counting down the minutes until they can leave and go to Olive Garden, Outback Steak House, Chili's, etc.. ;)
 
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John Helpher

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I heard a phrase a while back which seemed to so perfectly fit some of the discussions I've been involved in both online and in real life; impervious to reason. I think this is what Paul was referring to when he talked about people with a reprobate mind. You get the picture of a person with incredibly strong defensive posture as reason and logic bounce harmlessly off and fall away. It's frustrating for those looking on who want to find some kind of chink in the armor but alas, the armor is impervious; it simply cannot be penetrated.
 
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cvanwey

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I heard a phrase a while back which seemed to so perfectly fit some of the discussions I've been involved in both online and in real life; impervious to reason. I think this is what Paul was referring to when he talked about people with a reprobate mind. You get the picture of a person with incredibly strong defensive posture as reason and logic bounce harmlessly off and fall away. It's frustrating for those looking on who want to find some kind of chink in the armor but alas, the armor is impervious; it simply cannot be penetrated.

Either defend what I stated above, in post 66. Or, start with reflecting upon yourself :)
 
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John Helpher

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Either defend what I stated above, in post 66. Or, start with reflecting upon yourself

Well, I disagree with your conclusions so I'd not defend them. However, I did point out a contradiction in your conclusions (i.e. that "many" obey Jesus, and yet the example of Jesus' teaching you listed regarding forsaking all and working for love instead of money is rarely practiced by most Christians).

It is easy for disgruntled skeptics to point to examples of professing Christians behaving badly and then blame Christianity for that, but that is like a predator going for the weakest prey in the heard (and that is a generous assessment, with the less generous assessment being that it's just lazy thinking or perhaps even a deliberate attempt to distort the issues as a result of the malice you feel toward a God who would dare to demand obedience from you).
 
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cvanwey

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Well, I disagree with your conclusions so I'd not defend them.

Then you have chosen the wrong forum arena.
'Christian Apologetics'

A forum for non-Christians to challenge the Christian faith, and for Christians to defend their faith

However, I did point out a contradiction in your conclusions (i.e. that "many" obey Jesus, and yet the example of Jesus' teaching you listed regarding forsaking all and working for love instead of money is rarely practiced by most Christians).

Here we go... Thank you for partially engaging. However, you missed my point entirely. [My] point here, is that Jesus gives differing information, at differing times. And hence, it would be impossible to follow 'Jesus's teachings'. How would the human know which ones to follow, and which ones to ignore? If everyone gave away all their money/possessions, there would be no one to give the money/possessions to. Hence, you would either have to burn it, throw it away, or other. Further, the globe would be in economics ruins.

So I will start anew. How do we know which ones are to give away all their possessions?


It is easy for disgruntled skeptics to point to examples of professing Christians behaving badly and then blame Christianity for that,

I would agree. But that is not what I'm doing. If you re-read post #66, you can see I'm pointing out the following:

1. Jesus provides conflicting information. - 'author of confusion'
2. Jesus endorses actions I bet you choose to ignore.
3. Yes, some are lazy, and just go through the motions. But even if they 'woke up', seems impossible to follow Jesus, as His information likely does not jive with their 'morality' entirely.
 
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John Helpher

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Jesus gives differing information, at differing times. And hence, it would be impossible to follow 'Jesus's teachings'.

If everyone gave away all their money/possessions, there would be no one to give the money/possessions to.

There is nothing contrary in the teaching about forsaking all. It's a teaching against greed. The world's resources are finite; the more we take for ourselves, the less there is for others. The lesson behind the teaching is about sharing. You are right that if everyone were to share, there would be no need for anyone to forsake personal ownership of what they had always believed to be theirs alone.

So I will start anew. How do we know which ones are to give away all their possessions?

Ideally everyone should do it, since the principle is good in itself. Everyone should share.

3. Yes, some are lazy, and just go through the motions. But even if they 'woke up', seems impossible to follow Jesus, as His information likely does not jive with their 'morality' entirely.

Jesus himself said that if you want to know if his teachings are the real deal, you should try them for yourself.
 
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cvanwey

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There is nothing contrary

Yes, you just demonstrated as such. Jesus tells individuals to give up all their possessions. Everyone cannot do this. Jesus does not tell these humans to merely share. He tells some to give it all away. And in other verses, He eludes to other opposing things. The point being, you must ignore some of it; you cannot follow ALL His teachings. And judging from the fact you are responding, this means you opted to at least retain a smart device. Thus, are [you] following God's ambiguous Word(s) here? Doesn't look that way :)

"So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple."


Hence, how can you truly call yourself a follower?

Sounds as though we should all live in the dirt, hunt, pick fruits and veges, and not save anything for the future. But I sincerely doubt virtually any of this would ever enter your mind ;)

I'll stop here for now :)
 
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John Helpher

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Everyone cannot do this

Why can't everyone do this?

Sounds as though we should all live in the dirt, hunt, pick fruits and veges, and not save anything for the future. But I sincerely doubt virtually any of this would ever enter your mind

Nah, this is your skeptical attitude interfering with honest assessment. This is a teaching about sharing. If no one was grabbing the resources and saying, "THIS IS MINE!" then that doesn't mean all the resources, skills, and labor, suddenly disappear.

Ironically, the argument you're using is the same kind of argument so many professing Christians use when trying to explain-away obedience to the teaching. The bottom line is that you simply don't want to do it so you invent reasons why it can't be done.
 
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cvanwey

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Why can't everyone do this?

Why can't everyone give away all their possessions? For the reason already given. Economic collapse. Everyone living in dirt. No hospitals. No shelter. No place to store food. Heck, no churches, God forbid.... Even Jesus would not have been able to be a carpenter by trade. Nothing to build. No one to hire Him.

Sure, Jesus may have been able to manage. 'He has special powers.' But us humans don't. Humans would merely return to our 'caveman' days, at 'best'.


Nah, this is your skeptical attitude interfering with honest assessment. This is a teaching about sharing.

Nope. In the supplied verse, the individuals told are to give all away, if they wish to follow Him. It is not about 'sharing.'

Thus, I again ask you... How do you know Jesus does not want [you] to follow suit?

Furthermore, I sincerely doubt you give anything and everything away, for which you do not need to survive for that moment ;) If you do, again, you would not be responding from a smart device, for starters.


The bottom line is that you simply don't want to do it so you invent reasons why it can't be done.

I don't do it for many of the reasons supplied above. Likely the same as you ;)

Hence, I again ask you...

Are you living paycheck to paycheck, and giving anything and everything you have, including your house, car, assets, retirement, etc, and instead living in the dirt?
 
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John Helpher

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Why can't everyone give away all their possessions? For the reason already given. Economic collapse.

This is the problem with skeptical interpretation; you take one verse in isolation and build a case against it. It just ends up making you look foolish. Jesus and his followers shared all things in common. That's the answer. Forsake personal ownership of your stuff and share it with others.

This thing you have about living in the dirt only persists in your mind because you're being stubborn.
 
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cvanwey

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This is the problem with skeptical interpretation;

Why is being skeptical bad? Are you not skeptical about claims to divinity, which oppose your beliefs?

you take one verse in isolation and build a case against it.

This goes to show, that you really did not read/understand my responses. I'm saying that, in some verses, Jesus tells some to do this. And in others, He tells them to do another. My point is, how do you know which request(s) Jesus expects upon [you]?

It just ends up making you look foolish.

Rather, it instead further demonstrates what I stated in post #66. 'Cognitive dissonance'.

Jesus and his followers shared all things in common. That's the answer. Forsake personal ownership of your stuff and share it with others.

This thing you have about living in the dirt only persists in your mind because you're being stubborn.

You still do not get where I'm coming from sir. Let me try a differing approach. Maybe you'll see the perspective this time around?.?.

The term 'economics' is subject. There exists no 'objective' definitions for 'rich' and 'poor'. To a transient, maybe like Jesus even, as He was a homeless preacher in part, someone with 5k in the bank, a 2015 Toyota Corolla, and a 1,500 sq/ft house in Los Angeles, could be considered 'rich'. You likely possess/own more assets than the majority of the globe - (assuming you own a car, rent/own property, have some money in the bank, have some sort of minimal retirement or more, etc. My provided verse stands to be addressed, for two fundamental reasons:

1. God tells the 'rich' to give away ALL their possessions, if they wish to follow Him.

2. How do you know God does not deem [you] as 'rich'?

Maybe you can engage properly this time?

 
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John Helpher

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Why is being skeptical bad?

Not why, but when. It's bad when your skepticism overrides your logic; when your identity as a skeptic blinds you to accurate assessment.

I'm saying that, in some verses, Jesus tells some to do this. And in others, He tells them to do another.

Nope. You said if people obey Jesus they'll live in the dirt. That's an example of your identity as a skeptic preventing you from getting the bigger picture.

My point is, how do you know which request(s) Jesus expects upon [you]?

"Whosoever does not forsake all he has cannot be my disciple". If you want to be a follower of Jesus, then this teaching applies to you. Easy.

1. God tells the 'rich' to give away ALL their possessions, if they wish to follow Him.

Nope. He tells this to a rich man. He says it to the religious leaders. He says it to a great multitude of people, and he says it to "whosoever" would want to be his follower.

2. How do you know God does not deem [you] as 'rich'?

The teachings of Jesus equate to the values of the kingdom of Heaven. Ideally God would like all people to recognize the goodness of Jesus' teachings and to act on them. Those who choose to practice his teachings demonstrate that they want to be a citizen of his kingdom. Those who choose to ignore his teaching demonstrate, despite whatever pleasant things they say about God, that they're not interested in citizenship in God's kingdom.
 
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cvanwey

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It's bad when your skepticism overrides your logic; when your identity as a skeptic blinds you to accurate assessment.

Funny, because it looks as though this is what [you] are doing. Evidence to follow below...

Nope. You said if people obey Jesus they'll live in the dirt. That's an example of your identity as a skeptic preventing you from getting the bigger picture.

What does all your possessions mean? If you give them all away, you have no choice, but dirt. Logic :) If you choose to follow, and Jesus deems you 'rich', then you best be getting rid of all your stuff. So, does He deem you as rich? I already gave you some criteria...


"Whosoever does not forsake all he has cannot be my disciple". If you want to be a follower of Jesus, then this teaching applies to you. Easy.

Are you sure you are not mistaken, and it is instead
" those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples."

You see where I'm going with this yet sir? Drive down any major street, of any larger town, and count the number of times you have one church next to an opposing church. They cannot both be right. But they can certainly both be wrong.

Ala, God is the direct author of confusion. You pick and choose which verses are the most important to you, or for you; and ignore/omit the rest. If you do not believe me, I'll start listing some verses for you :) Let me know?


Nope. He tells this to a rich man. He says it to the religious leaders. He says it to a great multitude of people, and he says it to "whosoever" would want to be his follower.

You might want to brush up a bit on your beloved Bible:

The Cost of Being a Disciple
25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.


28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’

31 “Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
 
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