Case in point: God waited for years after Christ's resurrection give Israel time to accept Jesus as their messiah. When Israel failed, THEN God chose to blind Israel to the truth and turn to the Gentiles.To use the "sheep and goat judgement" parable of Matthew 25:31-46,to determine the sequence of events in the coming of the Lord,is not a good idea,especially for the pre-trib rapture theory,as this and other parables show only one coming and gathering.There is no hint of a pre-trib.rapture.
The parable shows the final fate of two classes of people and does not indicate this occurs at the start of the millennium.This would rather include the results of the white throne judgement.[Rev.20:11-15;22:1;Matthew 25:31.]
Not understanding this.Could you explain futher or cite how I actually accomplish what you say?
The spirits of the saints go to be with Christ when we die. Agreed. So far, good.Your whole theory is in tatters because of this fundamental error.It is becoming very difficult to take you seriously if you cannot understand this simple point.I will try to explain again.
The spirits of the saints go to be with Christ when we die.
Ecclesiastes 12:
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
II Corinthians 5:
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."
The bodies the dead will receive are not coming from the grave but are entirely new as scripture says:
1Corinthians 15:
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,and we shall be changed.
Being raised refers to being raised from the dead not being raised from the earth.
There is no need for the earthly,corruption as the dead are raised in the heavenly,incorruptible body and it is those who are alive that are changed and not the dead.Hence all are not gathered from the earth but from both heaven(dead) and the earth(living).The statement,"The rapture ONLY gathers from earth", is shown to be false and shows a clear lack of understanding of the event being discussed.
When will this happen, lamad?1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The general public opinion of this phrase: "the dead shall be raised" is exactly like it sounds: where are dead bodies put? In a grave in the ground. Another verse says "the graves were opened." That has the same meaning: a body that was once IN the grave, left their grave. All dictionaries agree: resurrection means raising up from the dead.
Definition of resurrect
transitive verb
1: to raise from the dead
Definition of resurrection
1a capitalized : the rising of Christ from the dead
often capitalized : the rising again to life of all the human dead before the final judgment
c: the state of one risen from the dead
Martha said, "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." This too has the same meaning: a body placed in a grave in the ground will rise again: the SAME body.
What did Job write: "And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God..." It has the same meaning: HIS flesh, the very flesh that would be buried would rise again and would be able to see again.
When will this happen, lamad?1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The general public opinion of this phrase: "the dead shall be raised" is exactly like it sounds: where are dead bodies put? In a grave in the ground. Another verse says "the graves were opened." That has the same meaning: a body that was once IN the grave, left their grave. All dictionaries agree: resurrection means raising up from the dead.
Definition of resurrect
transitive verb
1: to raise from the dead
Definition of resurrection
1a capitalized : the rising of Christ from the dead
often capitalized : the rising again to life of all the human dead before the final judgment
c: the state of one risen from the dead
Martha said, "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." This too has the same meaning: a body placed in a grave in the ground will rise again: the SAME body.
What did Job write: "And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God..." It has the same meaning: HIS flesh, the very flesh that would be buried would rise again and would be able to see again.
Certainly those in hell today will be raised after the thousand years. Are you going to be one of them?When will this happen, lamad?
You seem to have the idea it is soon, but this is never stated in the Bible.
We ARE told when the dead will be raised; Revelation 20:11-15 - after the Millennium.
At the last day and the final Trumpet call, everyone who has ever lived will stand before God in Judgment. There are no exceptions, even the Trib martyrs, Rev 20:4, will stand there and only then will they and all whose names are Written in the Book of Life; receive immortality.
Revelation 20:11-15 is clear: ALL the dead will be raised at the GWT Judgment. Confirmed by Revelation 20:5Certainly those in hell today will be raised after the thousand years. Are you going to be one of them?
Nowhere is that stated in the Bible. We are Promised it, but none say exactly when it will happen. We get that info from Rev 20 and verse 4 is crystal clear: ONLY the martyrs killed during the 3 1/2 year trib period, will be 'brought back to life', to rule with Jesus for the next 1000 years.On the other hand, the church of today is going to have its resurrection day soon. I hope you will be ready.
This is not true. Far from you and your American friends beliefs, but not far from the beliefs of the rest of the world Christians. Have you read Corrie ten Booms refutation of the 'rapture'?Do you understand your theories are far far from the "norm" of Christianity?
What you are missing:Revelation 20:11-15 is clear: ALL the dead will be raised at the GWT Judgment. Confirmed by Revelation 20:5
Nowhere is that stated in the Bible. We are Promised it, but none say exactly when it will happen. We get that info from Rev 20 and verse 4 is crystal clear: ONLY the martyrs killed during the 3 1/2 year trib period, will be 'brought back to life', to rule with Jesus for the next 1000 years.
This is not true. Far from you and your American friends beliefs, but not far from the beliefs of the rest of the world Christians. Have you read Corrie ten Booms refutation of the 'rapture'?
She speaks the truth of how we must expect trials and tests up until Jesus Returns.
Hebrews 12:8 says what those who wish to avoid tribulations are not His children.
What you are missing:
1. Jesus WAS dead, but TIME changed that, didn't it?
2. At this time, the dead in Christ WERE dead, but again, TIME changed that: the pretrib rapture made all those dead people ALIVE.
3. All those beheaded became dead when they lost their head, but TIME changed that. All the Old Testament saints WERE dead, but TIME changed that: at the 7th vial that ends the week (the last day) God will raise up all the Old Testament saints, so at this time they are no longer dead.
WHO then is the "dead" in verse 12? It cannot include Jesus. It cannot include any of the church. It cannot include any of the saints of the Old Testament. It cannot include those beheaded during the 70th week.
Rev. 20: the REST of the dead. You defeated your own theory with this verse. You are thinking the REST of the dead; which "rest" EXCLUDES the church, the 144,000, the Old Testament saints, those beheaded during the week, and all those that survived the days of GT and the sheep and goat judgment.
Therefore I find your theory in error: plain and simple.
None say exactly when Not true. Paul does tell us when: a moment before the Day of Wrath begins. His rapture event will be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord. Paul makes these two events back to back with no time between. One moment it is church age, or the age of grace, then BAM! The rapture takes place, and the next moment it is the Day of the Lord.
ONLY the martyrs killed during the 3 1/2 year trib period, will be 'brought back to life', to rule with Jesus for the next 1000 years. You missed the first part of Verse 4. That part includes all the New and Old testament saints.
This is not true. Far from you and your American friends beliefs Corrie Ten Boom lived through terrible events that clouded her reading. In other words, preconceived glasses prevent her to seeing a pretrib rapture. Anyway, she is ONE. Someone on a thread said the pretrib rapture was an American thing. I immediately wrote to 50 Christians in Africa and asked if they believed in a pretrib rapture. 49 of the 50 (on Interpals) said YES. And their reason: it is scripture.
It is NOT an American belief. It is a believe of Evangelical Christians around the world.
She speaks the truth of how we must expect trials and tests up until Jesus Returns This has nothing to do with a pretrib rapture. Look what is happening TODAY. We live in Satan's world. We are going to have tribulation. It has nothing to do with the days of God's wrath.
Can you wake up? God's chastening is NOT His wrath! Your theories are in error.
Exactly! Again you prove your theory false. Those that rose in Matthew 27 are not going to be in that resurrection after the 1000 years. By the way, they were Old Testament saints, probably the elders.A blind spot of the theory you are refuting here is that the claim that all the dead are raised at once has already been proven false. Matthew 27:52-53 shows that a partial resurrection of the dead has already taken place. The claim that all in Christ will be raised at the same time was shown to be false almost 2,000 years ago through the actual act of the resurrection of the dead. These people were part of the Firstfruits, but that's another story.
I note a total lack of any scriptural support for any of your ideas, in this post.Therefore I find your theory in error: plain and simple.
Exactly! Again you prove your theory false. Those that rose in Matthew 27 are not going to be in that resurrection after the 1000 years. By the way, they were Old Testament saints, probably the elders.
I wrote the address of the scripture, for it was the very scriptures YOU used. you just don't agree with my take on your scriptures.I note a total lack of any scriptural support for any of your ideas, in this post.
Plainly and simply; the theory of people being taken to heaven in a 'rapture', is gross unbiblical error.
However; nothing I can present will change your beliefs, you have too much invested in it to change now. A pity, because when the Lord's Day of fiery wrath does strike the earth, you and all who have believed the 'rapture' lie, will be very shocked and distressed.
2 Thess. 1:8 In flaming fire, the Lord Jesus will mete out punishment to all those who refuse to acknowledge their Creator and do not obey Him. Hebrews 10:27
1 Thess. 5:4-9 But you, brothers, are not in darkness, that this Day should surprise you like a thief. You are all children of the light, we do not belong in the darkness. So then let us keep sober and alert, armed with the breastplate of faith and love, and with the hope of salvation as a helmet. God has not destined us to suffer His wrath, but for the full attainment of salvation through our Lord, Jesus Christ. Rev. 3:10
The punishment of the nations, the next prophesied event, the Sixth Seal - Rev 6:12-17, Isaiah 2:12-21, Jeremiah 23:19, Ezekiel 30:2-5, Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:10 and many other vivid prophecies, that will literally be fulfilled on that Day of disaster for all the world. Everyone will be affected, Luke 21:35, and huge numbers of people will die. Isaiah 66:16, Jeremiah 9:22, Matthew 24:40.
It will be God’s second ‘reset of civilization’, an event similar in scope to the flood in Noah’s day. At that time, only Noah knew what was going to happen, now only just a very few understand the truth, as Daniel 12:10 says. Mathew 24:37-39
We, who believe in God, trust Jesus for our salvation and rely on His protection, have the promise of 1 Thess. 5:9 that we will not suffer His wrath. Many prophesies say how the Lord will protect His people during His wrath against the wicked peoples. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 31:23-24, Jeremiah 17:7-8, Daniel 12:1
That verse does not say the so called 'escape', is to heaven. You make that up.I have a novel idea? Why don't you escape what is coming instead of trying to convince others to join you in wrath? Luke 21:36.
That verse does not say the so called 'escape', is to heaven. You make that up. I agree. That is why I never form doctrine from one isolated verse. When I put this verse with John 14 and Rev. 19, the marriage in heaven, then I know the escape will be to heaven. You may not know it, but most of Evangelical Christianity knows it. It is for sure we would not escape to hell. Heaven is a much better choice.That verse does not say the so called 'escape', is to heaven. You make that up.
What I plan to do, is to go along with God's Plans for His people, as prophesied:
Zephaniah 3:1-8 Woe to the place of oppression, filthy and defiled, they heed no warning voice and ignore God’s rebukes. They won’t take correction or place their trust in their Creator. Their leaders have no concern for the people and prophet and priest alike profane the Holy Scriptures.
The people who ‘won’t take correction and trust their Creator’, is the Jewish State of Israel.
The Lord has judged and punished them before, their land laid waste and the towns deserted and He thought: surely now they will fear Me and will accept instruction, but they continue on in their evil deeds and they show no shame for it.
Judah has been punished and exiled before; by Babylon and by Rome. But as Ezekiel 21:14 tells us, there will be a third time. Zephaniah 1:14-18
Therefore: look out for Me, for the Day when I will stand up to witness against you, on the Day that I execute justice upon the nations, for I will pour out My fierce anger and the whole earth will be enveloped by the fire of My wrath.
This will be the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and fiery wrath against the nations. Prophesied in the Bible over 100 times. Habakkuk 3:12 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 6:12-17, +
Zephaniah 3:11-13 On that Day, Jerusalem, I shall wipe away your shame for all the transgressions committed in you, for I shall remove all your proud and arrogant citizens, only the humble and peaceful people will remain and those who never practice evil or speak lies, they will settle in the Land and nothing will disturb them.
This is the great Second Exodus of all of God’s people into all of the holy Land. Every faithful Christian: a vast multitude from every tribe, race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18-21, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Romans 9:24-26, Revelation 7:9
Zephaniah 3:9-10 They will all know a pure language, so everyone will know the true Name of the Lord and will praise Him with one accord. My worshippers, all the righteous people will come from afar to worship the Lord and bring offerings to Him.
People from every race, nation and language, all the born again Christian people, will travel there to live, in the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, while the rest of the world is ruled by a One World Government. Daniel 7:23, Revelation 17:12
Zephaniah 3:14-17 Daughter of Jerusalem; sing for joy! For the Lord has taken away your punishments and has cast out your enemies. Now the Lord is with you and you need never again fear disaster.
On the Day of the Lord’s wrath; This is the message for My people: Fear not, stand firm in your faith, your God will keep you safe and will rejoice over you.
Ref: REB, CJB, KJV. Some verses condensed and paraphrased.
This chapter of Zephaniah encapsulates the soon to happen end times story.
It tells how Jerusalem, the holy Land is denigrated and desecrated by its ungodly inhabitants and will rejoice when they are gone. How those enemies of the Lord, the evil neighbors; Jeremiah 12:14, and all who reject the Salvation of Jesus, will be uprooted and gone, then the holy Land resettled by the Lord’s faithful believers. Ezekiel 34:11-31 tells it plainly.
Jeremiah 7:30-34 & 8:1-13 The people of Judah have done wrong, they worship idols and have no regard for their Creator....Therefore, the time is coming when I shall fill the valley of Topeth with their corpses.......All the survivors of this wicked race, from wherever I have banished them, would rather die than live. Isaiah 22:14
...Judah is incurable in their waywardness......I listen, but I hear not one word of remorse ....My people do not know the Judgements of the Lord. How can you say: We are wise and we have the Law of God, when your scribes and priests have falsified it? The wise are shamed and where is wisdom in them?
Therefore I will give their wives to others and give their land to new owners, for all of their prophets and priests are frauds....on My Day of reckoning, they will fall with a great crash. I shall surely consume them says the Lord and there will be no grapes on the vine, [Israel] and no figs on the fig tree. [Judah]
We Christians are told by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:4-5, that we should know God’s plans for what will happen in the near future. Zephaniah 3 gives it to us, confirmed by the sequence of Revelation chapters 6-7.
What is presented to you in these scriptures, is God’s Promises to His faithful people, His blessings of peace and prosperity, of joy and happiness, of security and long life, as all who love Him and keep the Commandments; will live in His Land.
It is the prophetic parallel of ancient Israel, where Jesus led the people through the desert and how most of them refused to accept the Promise. 1 Corinthians 10:6-13
Ezekiel 20:34-38 tells how, once again, some of His people will revolt and rebel and they will not be allowed to enter the Land of Israel.
In today’s situation, we have many who have accepted the Gospel, but who have chosen their own beliefs about what God intends to do for His people and during this forthcoming test, 1 Peter 4:12, they may fail to stand firm in their trust that the Lord will protect them. This won’t lose their salvation, but it will be a serious disadvantage, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15
As the great chapter of Isaiah 35:1-10, one of the many prophesies that describe the Lord’s faithful Christian people entering the holy Land, says: ...no one unclean will go there....The Lord’s people, set free: will enter Zion with shouts of triumph.
It is you that shows a sad lack of Biblical understanding.Did you notice "all your brethren?" This is speaking of descendants of Jacob, not Gentile Christians! You amaze me. In 73 years of associating with Christian believers I have never heard your theories before, nor have I ever read a book espouching such theories. I wonder, do you stand alone, or have you found anyone else that believes as you do?
You are going to be SHOCKED to find the Millennial reign inhabited by Jews primarily. Jews in natural, flesh and blood bodies. The church will be judges in resurrection bodies.It is you that shows a sad lack of Biblical understanding.
The New Testament is quite clear; We Christians ARE the one people of God, His Overcomers, His faithful Israelites. WE are the ones that Jesus came to save. Matthew 15:24, the Jews rejected Him and still do. They do have another future, over 20 prophesies tell of their virtual demise. Isaiah 22:14, Ezekiel 21:1-5, Romans 9:27
The Book that tells me what God has planned for our future, is the Bible, no other.
Where you get the ideas that you espouch [sic] cannot be from the Bible, as that Book never says humans will go to and live in heaven.
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