Does Matthew 22:14 prove Calvinism and Predestination?

Dave L said:

Only saved men are good.........

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I agree with you but I had a question.

Are you saying only good men, have their steps ordered to Salvation?

JIMINZ said:

I agree with you but I had a question.

Are you saying only good men, have their steps ordered to Salvation?

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They are good because God saved them.

Dave L said:

But only the born again will do good works of love resulting in eternal life.

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That's not what Jesus said. He said that belief is a work that we must perform and doing that work RESULTS in salvation (eternal life). That belief is only 'living' (see James) when one obeys his call to repent from sin, confess that he is the Son of God, be baptized (be born again and receive the remission of sins) and continue or abide in him. All those are commands that Jesus gave.

He said elsewhere, 'by their fruits you will know them.' Obedience produces the fruits that God said would be produced by a person's obedience. Obedience is not itself a fruit. We could do good works that we invent "of yourselves" (Eph. 2) and it would still not result in God's fruit. Only obedience to his commands will do that. And even partial obedience is rendered moot.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

The grammar excludes the idea that God is causing anyone to do this work. The person is held responsible for his obedience to God's commands. A person can call Jesus his Lord and Master all he wants and he can even do good works, some of which are commanded as this example shows. So even if you were to see a person performing good works, it wouldn't be proof that God, a. caused him to do it, b. were complete.

If you disobey in one thing, your good works are counted as nothing. A person has to do all he is commanded. He can't cherry pick. See Ezekiel 18.

But here in this passage also we see that Calvinism is utterly smashed. Under his teaching, a person can't even obey without God's hand on his head. Those who disobey are proof that God has predestined that person to destruction. But this is even a worse situation. Here we have a situation where God provides only partial obedience and then still condemns the person! How is it possible to not have the capability to obey unless God gives you that free will and yet be able to obey partially without that special gift? That means that God must have provided only partial obedience to those people!

What a terrible God who would only give people a little bit of an ability, leading them to believe that they have been granted all of it. "Nope! Sucker! Fooled you! Now burn in hell!"

com7fy8 said:

I have not found your actual quote of John directly saying God forces people to sin; and not only I but others need to spend time reading God's word, not trying to read every thing you have written, when you could be considerate by simply presenting your quote, right here, please; so please save me and others time, by simply providing your quote of John directly saying God forces people to sin . . . if there is a quote which actually says this.

I do understand we interpret things. If you are interpreting, I would be very interested in reading . . . here . . . the quote you are interpreting. But I need to spend my time in God's word, not going through every thing you or John wrote . . . please

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So you want me to go back and find the quote that already is posted, spend my time doing that for your benefit so you can just spend time responding to other people while I do it? Kind of demanding if you ask me.

JIMINZ said:

Do not take those verses out of Romans 9 and isolate them from the rest of the verses at the beginning of Romans 9 because they tell you who is being spoken about by Paul.

Here then is the Context of what Paul was saying, and Who he was speaking about.......Jews, Not Gentiles or Christians

Rom 9:1-17
1) I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9) For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

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So make sure you don't ever use these verses to non-Jews then.

But for Gentiles specifically:

Ephesians 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

Romans 8:28-30 King James Version (KJV)
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Bible Highlighter said:

What happened later does not change what happened in Jonah 3. The point is that God changed His mind based on the Ninevites forsaking their evil ways. This is what changed the scenario.

"God saw what they did; he saw that they had given up their wicked behavior. So he changed his mind and did not punish them as he had said he would." (Jonah 3:10) (GNT).​

It was not some kind of Election of Salvation or an Election to Reprobation by God happening here. It is just dumb to try to force such an idea into this story. It just doesn't fit or work at all. So this means Unconditional Election is simply not true. It's a man made invention based upon a gross misunderstanding of Romans 9, and John 6:44.

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Why would God have sent Jonah to the Ninevites if He didn't expect them to Repent, doesn't God know everything?

How does He then change His mind about something that He knew was going to take place?

My original question was, did God send Jonah for Jonahs sake or for the Ninevites sake?

nolidad said:

As for all- you are simply wrong as even a light a tool as Strongs concordance would show you.

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Strong's says it means all. Every person. You're right. Strong's does help.

a. any, every one (namely, of the class denoted by the norm annexed to πᾶς); with the singular: as πᾶν δένδρον, Matthew 3:10; πᾶσα θυσία, Mark 9:49 (T WH Tr marginal reading omits; Tr text brackets the clause); add, Matthew 5:11; Matthew 15:13; Luke 4:37; John 2:10; John 15:2; Acts 2:43; Acts 5:42; Romans 14:11; 1 Corinthians 4:17; Revelation 18:17, and very often; πᾶσα ψυχή ἀνθρώπου, Romans 2:9 (πᾶσα ἄνθρωπος ψυχή, Plato, Phaedr., p. 249 e.); πᾶσα συνείδησις ἀνθρώπων, 2 Corinthians 4:2; πᾶς λεγόμενος Θεός, 2 Thessalonians 2:4; πᾶς ἅγιος ἐν Χριστῷ, Philippians 4:21ff with the plural, all or any that are of the class indicated by the noun: as πάντες ἄνθρωποι, Acts 22:15; Romans 5:12, 18; Romans 12:17; 1 Corinthians 7:7; 1 Corinthians 15:19; πάντες ἅγιοι, Romans 16:15; πάντες ἄγγελοι Θεοῦ, Hebrews 1:6; πάντα (L T Tr WH τά) ἔθνη, Revelation 14:8; on the phrase πᾶσα σάρξ, see σάρξ, 3.

The 'class denoted' in this case is 'men' or 'mankind' but the absence of the word ανθροποι means that all is especially broad.

THE UNSAVED PERSON HAS NO SPIRITUAL CAPACITY TO RECEIVE THE GOSPEL. PAUL SAID THAT IN ROM. 8 AND 1 COR. 1&2

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You misunderstand those passages.

Bible Highlighter said:

Not sure what your point is. Are you agreeing with me, or disagreeing with me? I need a little more clarification on what you are referring to with your quoting of these two pieces of Scripture.

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The Scripture was to demonstrate that Jesus did use literal examples to make His points.

OK from what you said I posted two Scripture reference where it clearly says.

God Blinded and Defend the Jews that they could not See nor Hear, and thereby Reject Jesus as Messiah.

So yes you theory is zapped.

If you read the verses you would have seen the statements made in both.

Hi nolidad (c: quoting [U]Romans 9:16[/U] you said:

Read verse 16 again!!!!

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

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So, it is clear that it is of God, not of our own selves. How ever could I have been superior to others, so I got my own self to choose Jesus, while others did not?? I was a child of wrath, "just as the others." (Ephesians 2:3) So, if I was just as other children of Satan . . . I did not have some special other-thing of my own, that got me to choose Christ. If I became receptive, then, I consider > the receptivity and the ability to hear was given to me >

"For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?" (1 Corinthians 4:7)

And 2 Corinthians 3:4-5 says our sufficiency is not of our own selves.

But the glory and credit are to God > Romans 6:17.

And Jesus says a person needs to deny oneself, right? Luke 9:23. My self includes my own character which effects what my own will can do. I need how God changes my nature, so it is natural for me to submit to how God rules us in His peace > Colossians 3:15. And the thanks is to Him, for this, if I ever succeed in doing what He knows He means . . . not what I can fabricate and get my self to try to do.

Bible Highlighter said:

This means that it was their choice that they did not want to be gathered to Jesus, and it was not God the Father, or Jesus Force Electing them to Salvation or Force Electing them to Reprobation.

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OK from what you said, I posted two Scripture reference where it clearly says.

God Blinded and Defend the Jews that they could not See nor Hear, and thereby Reject Jesus as Messiah.

So yes your theory is zapped.

If you read the verses you would have seen the statements made in both.

Al Touthentop said:

Since the law was given by God, disobedience to it is disobedience to God. That's what sin is. Adam and Eve sinned - disobeyed God's commands. It's not some sort of dark chromosome that we can physically inherit.

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Typical

Al Touthentop said:

I wasn't arguing that baptism by itself can do anything. A person can immerse himself in water (take a bath) and it won't remove his sins. He has to believe in the one that makes it possible, confess that he is the son of God, decide that he is going to turn from his past sin (repent) and keep God's commandments to him from that point on.

But it is through baptism that we are born again, not some emotional experience that has no basis in scripture.

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Then you need to become a lot clearer in your wording because, what you said is exactly what it sounded like you were saying.

I would not have made comment if I had any idea otherwise.

nolidad said:

So make sure you don't ever use these verses to non-Jews then.

But for Gentiles specifically:

Ephesians 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

Romans 8:28-30 King James Version (KJV)
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

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OK Be Happy.

nolidad said:

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

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The error in your thinking is that you inject the idea that God is saying here that Pharaoh was created to disobey God. The grammar there however says that the purpose of God showing his grace on Pharaoh and making him exalted among his people was not that he would sin, but that God's name would be exalted. That's the purpose every man was created for.

Pharaoh rejected his purpose and disobeyed God. He became offended by God's word and instead of recognizing the grace God had already bestowed upon him, he rejected it.

Your error is in asserting that God glorifies in the sin of his people.

Had Pharaoh obeyed, God's name would have been glorified. He brought the people out of Israel in spite of Pharaoh's disobedience, not because of his disobedience. He didn't cause Pharaoh to sin so he could have the appearance of being powerful. That is really a gross slander against God and it was obviously not Paul's intent to malign God.

So God's name was glorified through the event but it was not through Pharaoh or Pharaoh's sin, but because of what God accomplished. Had Pharaoh obeyed God, then he would have satisfied the purpose for which he was created. Instead he became a vessel "refitted for destruction."

In context of the original passage in Exodus, which those to whom he was writing knew full well, God complained that even though he had given Pharaoh authority and power which he should have used to glorify God, he still refused to listen to God.

16 But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth. 17 As yet you exalt yourself against My people in that you will not let them go.

For what purpose did he raise him up? Was it to sin? And how would God's name be declared by a sinner? How would it be exalted? God's complaint was that Pharaoh didn't heed his word. He was going against the purpose for which he was created. His disobedience was CONTRARY to the purpose for which God created him.

And so "God hardens whom he hardens..." God takes responsibility for the words he speaks and recognizes that not everyone will accept them. None of that lesson speaks to God's intentional hardening of anyone's heart. They chose to be hardened themselves, in spite of the grace God has already shown them.

JIMINZ said:

Then you need to become a lot clearer in your wording because, what you said is exactly what it sounded like you were saying.

I would not have made comment if I had any idea otherwise.

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I can definitely work on my clarity, that's a fine criticism, but you made an assumption that wasn't truly supported by what I was saying.

..

Al - - about my request that you provide us with a quote of John saying God "forces" people to sin . . . you said:

Kind of demanding if you ask me.

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Well, I thought it would not be hard for you to find it. So . . . I have done what I can to find it > but, on the way to looking for it, I have discovered a few items to bring into this >

boxman144 said:

adjective: chosen

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Al Touthentop said:

Under Calvinism, sinners have no choice.

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Dave L said:

I would rather have Christ dictate my choices than Satan. It's either-or.

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Al Touthentop said:

If you choose to preach that he forces some people to obey and others not to obey and that he then punishes those who were forced to disobey, you're preaching a Christ that doesn't exist.

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Saying God chooses does not necessarily mean He is forcing what someone will do. One's own nature can determine what the person does. But God can be choosing whether or not He changes the person out of his or her own nature which can be the dictator of what the person can do.

Paul says we all were "by nature children of wrath", in Ephesians 2:3.

Al Touthentop said:

Under Calvinism, God punishes those whom he denied the ability to obey.

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Well, if God did not choose to change a sinner to have an obedient nature . . . I guess He was refusing to.

Dave L said:

Sinners can only choose to sin unless born again.

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I would say their nature . . . their real character . . . can be their dictator of what they are capable of doing. Our character has a lot to do with what we are capable of doing . . . and why we are doing it. One might choose to trust Jesus, but what is the person's motive, of the person's character?? People went to and stayed with Jesus, but with their own wrong reasons based on their selfish character.

Al Touthentop said:

To be born again is to be baptized into Christ through water as Peter and all of the apostles preached (as taught to them by Jesus).

That's a choice. It isn't forced.

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Whatever really is being born again is not forced, I would say, but we need how God's grace changes us so we become obedient >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

In the previous verse, here, our Apostle Paul does say the obedience of the Philippians increased in the absence of Paul; and then is when he says "for it is God who works". So, why did their obedience increase, then? God "gives the increase," we have in 1 Corinthians 3:7.

Now, I guess you could say, then, that God is forcing a person's nature to change to become obedient. God's love does have force . . . His own almighty power, including how "perfect love casts out fear," we have in 1 John 4:18. So, God's power does what is good.

But there is a major difference between the force of a baseball bat smashing a chunk of ice into pieces, versus how warming can have force to melt the ice into nice drinking water.

Force is needed to do things. So, it might be good to clarify what sort of force is being used, then, in case your quote of John Calvin says God "forced" or "causes" people. Your meaning might not be the same as John's meaning. So, after a few more items, here, we can see.

So said:

Calvinists preach the opposite. You are forced to sin and are not allowed to question a God that would hold you accountable for sin he caused you to do.

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Well, below, I have provided a quote which you did give to us; however, this does not directly say anything like > "God forces people to sin." But, below, I intend to recheck the actual wording of what is claimed to be given by John Calvin.

Al Touthentop said:

If God causes some people to "sin" and others to obey, there is no such thing as sin.

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Again, I will look for if the quote said to be from John says anything like God "causes" anyone to sin.

Of course, even if John does give such wording, there can be different meanings of causing or force. We do have how Romans 1:18-32 says God turned evil men over to their lusts which then caused those men to do what is shameful: our Apostle Paul . . . not John Calvin . . . says this happened. But God's word does not say that God directly caused them to so degrade themselves; but if God turned them over to what He knew their own nature and lusts would make them do, one might argue He was causing what they did, by letting them loose to do it. But their own evil nature was their real dictator, I would say.

Ah-hah . . . so you Al Touthentop have here said what ones say John said:

The decree, I admit, is, dreadful; and yet it is impossible to deny that God foreknow what the end of man was to be before he made him, and foreknew, because he had so ordained by his decree. Should any one here inveigh against the prescience of God, he does it rashly and unadvisedly. For why, pray, should it be made a charge against the heavenly Judge, that he was not ignorant of what was to happen?
Calvin, John, Institutes of Christian Religion,trans. Henry Beveridge (Peabody, Mass: Hendrickson Publishers, Inc., 2008-11), 586 (Book II, Chapter 23, Section 7)

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And then . . . in commenting about this quote . . . you, post:74863113, member:424283"]Calvin believed that God was present in the future in the here and now. He sees the future because it is with him "now." But that seeing is just mere observance. Since God caused everything, his knowledge of the future was because he predestined it all to happen. His prescience comes from his predistination, says Calvin. If you cause everything, then you know what's going to happen!

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So, yes it says God "ordained", which can mean He controlled. But ordaining and even controlling does not necessarily mean He directly causes something. You can manage a forest fire that you did not start. You can know what will happen, for example how there will be a flooded river. So, you build dikes to manage which way that flood will flow. You are not actually making that river flood itself, or causing it to, but because you are caring you make arrangements for what it will be able to do or not do. And so you are the one who knows what will happen, because . . . like I think you just said . . . because you will be in control of the problem.

So, let me check what this "prescience" is supposed to mean > it seems this can mean someone knowing something before it happens.

Knowing is not causing or forcing, in my opinion. And I am not saying you say this, either.
But nowhere in this quote do I see John saying God causes or makes or forces anyone to sin; yes he says "ordained", but this can mean different ways of controlling things . . . causing directly or by managing what you did not actually cause. So, if this is the writing you are going by, my opinion is you are interpreting. And my interpretation is that since God's word clearly says God does not cause people to sin, what happens is God keeps control of which way evil people are allowed to go, but their own evil nature causes them to do what they do. But if God were not in overall control . . . I think evil would have already taken over everything.

Of course, if you really know exactly what will happen at a certain time tomorrow, how really can you know this unless you will control it to happen???? How, then, can God know, unless He will be in control of it? I can see this, but . . . this is . . . interpretation.

Controlling can be by direct forcing, or by allowing, or by guiding, or other means. So, even if John mean God controls all, still this does not necessarily mean He is forcing evil directly.

com7fy8 said:

So, let me check what this "prescience" is supposed to mean > it seems this can mean someone knowing something before it happens.

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And Calvin says that it is wrong to believe that the prescience takes precedent over the knowledge. In other words, God doesn't see into the future, he knew it was going to happen because he MADE it happen.

But consider also the passage where Jesus rebukes people for doing the very works he commanded, some of them anyway, and says he never knew them. Those people had a partial obedience and still weren't accepted.

Under Calvanistic theology, until a man is zapped by God, he doesn't have the ability to obey God. And those he zaps are only those he chose beforehand to zap.

So if that's true, some men are zapped to obey incompletely and still condemned. Nice God that God they worship.

God was the direct cause for the Jews to Reject Jesus as their Messiah.

Mark 4:12
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Luke 8:10
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

JIMINZ said:

How true, how true.

Mat. 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

But this only makes sense because the Parable was about the Jewish Nation (People), not about Gentiles getting Salvation or Christians.

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Let's look at the Scriptures and see if what you are saying is true or not.

Matthew 22:1-14
The following is my commentary to the text:
(Note: The quotations below that say "The Holy Bible" is not from another poster, but it is merely a quote from the actual Bible itself so that I can offer you my commentary on Matthew 22:1-14).

The Holy Bible said:

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

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The Kingdom of Heaven is compared to God the Father having a marriage for His Son Jesus Christ.

The Holy Bible said:

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

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#1. The servants who went out to call them are prophets who spoke of the coming Messiah.

#2. The "them that were bidden to the wedding" were the Jews (or the Israelite nation as a whole). They were the ones who are being called at this point in the parable. What are they being called to do? They were being called to believe in the coming Messiah as their Savior and be faithful to God, which would in turn make them able to come to the Wedding Supper (Which is mentioned in Revelation 19); But they did not believe (i.e. come).

The Holy Bible said:

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

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The part about the animals being sacrificed is a part of Scripture I will not mention at this point because it will only confuse you and take away from the ultimate point I am trying to make here. But the marriage call here is the one mentioned in Revelation 19.

The Holy Bible said:

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

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The "they" here are the Jews as a whole or nation. They made light of the message of the coming Messiah by the prophets [i.e. they did not take their words seriously], and went back to their old normal way of doing things.

The Holy Bible said:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

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The prophets foretold of Christ's coming, but even some of these prophets were killed by God's own people (i.e. Jerusalem).

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee,..." (Matthew 23:37).

The Holy Bible said:

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

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When the Jews fell away from God in the Old Testament and killed the prophets, God had them killed, and they even destroyed their city. Even the temple at one point was destroyed.

Note: We learn Jezebel had the prophets killed, and later in time, the Jewish exile took place (i.e. their city was destroyed).

The Holy Bible said:

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

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This is where Jesus appears on the scene to the Jews. The servants at this point are now the disciples. The marriage to coming Messiah was ready, but it was not going to take place because the Jews were not worthy. They did not accept their Messiah Jesus when He was right in front of them. They were not worthy on the account of their unbelief.


Note: The words in blue within brackets above is my commentary to the text.

The Holy Bible said:

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

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Seeing the Jews rejected their Messiah Jesus Christ [i.e. The Jews rejected the prophets who spoke of the coming Messiah, and they rejected the Messiah Himself when He came, who is JESUS], salvation in Jesus Christ then went out to the Gentiles; Thus as a result, the Gentiles were then being called to the marriage instead.

The Holy Bible said:

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

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The disciples of Christ then went out to the world of the Gentiles and gathered as many as they found. Some of these Gentiles the disciples gathered were bad, and other Gentiles were good.

Jude 1 talks about how there were some who are like clouds without water who infiltrated themselves from among the brethren. These are they who turned God's grace into a license for immorality (See: Jude 1:4). Other Gentile believers were genuine with God and did not justify sin like Titus.