I said:
"I wonder why one would even think that Jesus Christ needed salvation."
Still, this isn't anything close to Jesus needing salvation. He is our salvation.
Yes, the sins of the people transferred to the sacrifical lamb. That still isn't salvation for Jesus. Or that He needed it.
[Psa 16:10-11 NASB] 10 For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay. 11 You will make known to me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; In Your right hand there are pleasures forever.
[Act 2:22-33 NASB] 22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this [Man,] delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put [Him] to death. 24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. 25 "For David says of Him, 'I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN. 26 'THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE; 27 BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY. 28 'YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.' 29 "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT [one] OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. 32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
[Gal 3:14, 18-19 NASB] 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. ... 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. 19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
To whom was this promise of the Holy Spirit made? It was made to Abraham and to his Seed (singular). Therefore, Christ (the seed), though he could have received his own life back to him and raised himself, he allowed himself to be emptied and crushed for our sake and waited for God to save him through the promise. It is startling to think of God having to give Jesus the Holy Spirit, but that is exactly what scripture says. Therefore, since Christ allowed his resurrection to be given to him rather than using his own righteousness to do it, we can say that Christ allowed himself to be saved, or that Christ needed saving by God (salvation) in order to accomplish the plan of God.
[Phl 2:7-9 NASB] 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, [and] being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
Uh oh. I see a problem here. Christ's death on the cross does NOT have God "seeing us as righteous". If that were true, then universalism would be true, which it is NOT.
No one is saved on the basis of who Christ died for. He paid the sin debt, yes. But unless and until a person personally trusts in Jesus as their Savior, they aren't saved, and aren't declared righteous.
I do not believe in universalism. I believe that universalism is a lie from Satan. However... over the years as I've studied the issue, I've come to understand a different view that is not widely held. It may be disruptive to your typical understanding, but read through this to the end before passing judgement on it.
Calvinists believe that Christ’s sacrifice and redemption was limited, or only for those whom had been given faith. It is said that Christ only died for those who would have faith in Him. But allow me to offer another model. I believe that Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection was for all, but only those who are of faith will inherit life in the resurrection. In other words, because of Christ, all will be resurrected, but not all will enter the kingdom of heaven. That is only for those who believe the gospel and obtain the righteousness of Christ through the inheritance by kinship with Abraham.
Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
So Christ’s work resurrects each and every human being from Adam’s corporate judgment, but then they are judged as individuals (by Christ). Those who do not have Christ’s righteousness by faith in the gospel then have a second death and are thrown into the lake of fire.
Additionally, try to make sense of this apparent contradiction without this knowledge on resurrection:
Numbers 14:18
The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.
Ezekiel 18:20
The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
This seems at first to be contradiction, but then you realize that Ezekiel is future prophecy. Numbers describes the law, and what now is. Because of Christ, that original judgment of death will be repealed in lieu of individual judgments. Then, as John 5:28 says, there will be a resurrection of all – the good to a resurrection of life, and the evil to a resurrection of a second judgment and a second death.
I initially came upon this in Romans 5. Romans 5:12-21 can be confusing. It is helpful to make lists and charts when breaking it down. For example, it has phrases like 'just as' and 'the free gift is not like the transgression.' So what I realized is that scripture is comparing and contrasting things... so I had to make a chart of what was "similar" and was was "different".
[Rom 5:16-17 NASB] 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
So on one hand, you have a universal judgement arising from a single sin. Think about it... no only was Adam cursed, but the plants, the animals, the very ground, and all human beings were cursed for one, single sin.
On the other hand - and NOT LIKE the sin - the free gift arose from many sins... many transgressions resulting in justification. So Christ's righteousness isn't forgiving the one, Original Sin, it's forgiving many sins. It occured to me that if we are all 'guilty' of Adam's sin, then forgiving ANY single person in the world would have a universal effect on repealing the judgment of entire universe... since God's judgement of Adam was a universal, corporate judgement for one, single sin.
[1Co 15:21-22 NASB] 21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
The universal, corporate judgement of Adam has to be repealed in lieu of individual judgments. Here in 1Corinthians we see the universality of Adam's judgment compared to universality of Christ's repeal. But that doesn't mean -- as the universalists suggest -- that everyone will be saved. No, we have an individual judgment in the Great White Throne judgement.
[Rev 20:11-14 NASB] 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
I believe that, since there was 1 righteous person in existence (Jesus) it necessitates a repeal of Adam's universal judgement (Adam's death came because of one, single sin). After
ALL PEOPLE are resurrected from Adam's corporate judgement there will be individual judgments at the Great White Throne judgment. Then, some will have Christ's righteousness applied to their lives and have eternal life, and some will have eternal death... the second death (the second
judgement of death.. an individual judgement rather than Adam's universal judgment).
That will be the full inheritance for the saints. The Holy Spirit in us is a pledge of our full inheritance.
[Eph 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.
I asked for verses that support what you claimed:
"Jesus believed the gospel God spoke, and his faith in the gospel - the covenant God made with Abraham - is how scripture says Jesus was raised from the dead."
Why do you think any of these verses say what you just claimed?? None of these verses say anything about Jesus' "faith in the gospel".
You are right, they don't say it directly. However, it is heavily implicated, and moreover it is logically sound. It says that God gave the covenant of faith in the gospel to Abraham and to his Seed. It says that Seed to whom God was making the promise through Abraham (the promise of salvation through faith in the gospel) was being made to Jesus Christ. It says that the Holy Spirit is given to those with faith in the gospel qualifying them as Abraham's descendant, and it says that Jesus was given the Holy Spirit, and that he was resurrected through Abraham's eternal covenant.
Hebrews 11:6 says that,
without faith it is impossible to please God. When Jesus was water baptized, a voice was heard saying 'this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased."
[Heb 12:2 NASB] 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
[Heb 10:37-38 NASB] 37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. 38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
[Isa 49:7-8 NASB] 7 Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel [and] its Holy One, To the despised One, To the One abhorred by the nation, To the Servant of rulers, "Kings will see and arise, Princes will also bow down, Because of the LORD who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel who has chosen You." 8 Thus says the LORD, "In a favorable time I have answered You, And in a day of salvation I have helped You; And I will keep You and give You for a covenant of the people, To restore the land, to make [them] inherit the desolate heritages;
[Psa 22:1, 18-24 NASB] 1 For the choir director; upon Aijeleth Hashshahar. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning. ... 18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots. 19 But You, O LORD, be not far off; O You my help, hasten to my assistance. 20 Deliver my soul from the sword, My only [life] from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the lion's mouth; From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me. 22 I will tell of Your name to my brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will praise You. 23 You who fear the LORD, praise Him; All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him, And stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel. 24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from him; But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
Well, i don't know what you are talking about here.
The two women are the two covenants for justifying someone as righteous. The Law, and Faith in the Gospel (allegorically speaking). Here it is saying that the unmarried woman (those adopted children of Abraham) will give Abraham many more heirs than the married woman (the natural descendants of Abraham or those who are of The Law).
Of course. But what it doesn't mean is "made". No one is made righteous. It is a delaration by God. To believers only.
I have no objection to this... perhaps you could explain the necessity for a distinction.
