A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

sovereigngrace · Apr 4, 2020

claninja said:
Let's back up a second. My position is that the Amil defines the 1,000 years as symbolic for the time between the 1st and 2nd coming. SG has been saying that is a false claim. If that is false, then what does amil define the 1,000 years as?

Now, The intertestimental period has a broad defintion: 400 years of silence between the OT and the NT. Some gospel begin the story with Christ (matthew, John), some begin with John the baptist (mark, luke). So both can be technically right.

Sometimes we need to be picky SG. Does the 70 weeks end 3.5 years after the cross or with the destruction of the temple? does the 1,000 years end with satan's little season or the 2nd coming?

A MOD from another forum defines the Amil position as symbolic for starting at Christ's ascension and ending with the return of Christ:

Why Christians Should Embrace Partial Preterism

"One particular problem is the use of term amillennialism. Amillennialism means no millennial period set between two specific events in history matching 1000 years. In the amillennial view, the 1000 years is symbolic and starts at the Ascension of Christ and ends with the physical return of Christ at the Second coming. "

The Millennial Kingdom by John Walvoord in regards to Amillinnialsim:

"The present age is between the first and second comings is the fulfillment of the millennium. Its adherents are divided on whether the millennium is being fulfilled now on earth (Augustine) or whether it is being fulfilled by the saints in heaven (Kliefoth)".

From the Handbook of Evangelical Theology by Robert Lightner quoting from J.G. Vos:

"Amillennialism teaches that there will be a parallel and contemporaneous development of good and evil-God's kingdom and satan's kingdom-in this world, which will continue until the second coming."

Even theopedia defines it the same way:

Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism) is the view in Christian eschatology which states that Christ is presently reigning through the Church, and that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20:1-6 is a metaphorical reference to the present church age which will culminate in Christ's return"

Why Christians Should Embrace Partial Preterism

the link you provided in post 15 of another forum, diagrams the amil position. In this diagram the millennium is symbolic for the church age, which begins at the cross and ends at the 2nd coming. The diagram has "satan's littles season" at the end of the symbolic millennium/church age, NOT after it.

https://www.christianforums.com/dat...7/310297_f35f57c294d6150377c54064f0881f64.svg

If you believe the 1,000 years ends right before satan's little season, then what do you believe the 1,000 years is representative of?

The millennium represents the free spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles, as prophesied by Christ, the prophets and the apostles, and Satan's inability to thwart that because of spiritual restraint. That will all change at the end, when that advance is curtailed by the kingdom of darkness just before at end, just prior to the second coming, in Satan's little season, according to Revelation 20, 2 Thess 2, and other Scripture. See my post #377 above.

Andrewn · Apr 4, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I believe we see the progressive detail of the conflict between the two kingdoms, zooming in on particular aspects of that great final conflict. Comparing each recap to each other which seem to reinforce that position. There is only one gathering for war at the end. This is the final throw of the kingdom of darkness before it is eternally destroyed.

I agree with your post. In previous messages, I expressed my belief that Armageddon and Gog & Magog are the same event, at the end. It doesn't have to be an "either/or" situation, though. I'm not really a preterits. The idealistic interpretation can accommodate multiple antichrists at different times in history. The event at beginning of the Millennium is said to be 42 months, the event at the end is 5 months only, not that I take these durations literally.

sovereigngrace · Apr 4, 2020

Andrewn said:
I agree with your post. In previous messages, I expressed my belief that Armageddon and Gog & Magog are the same event, at the end. It doesn't have to be an "either/or" situation, though. I'm not really a preterits. The idealistic interpretation can accommodate multiple antichrists at different times in history. The event at beginning of the Millennium is said to be 42 months, the event at the end is 5 months only, not that I take these durations literally.

I agree.

sovereigngrace · Apr 4, 2020

claninja said:
Let's back up a second. My position is that the Amil defines the 1,000 years as symbolic for the time between the 1st and 2nd coming. SG has been saying that is a false claim. If that is false, then what does amil define the 1,000 years as?

Now, The intertestimental period has a broad defintion: 400 years of silence between the OT and the NT. Some gospel begin the story with Christ (matthew, John), some begin with John the baptist (mark, luke). So both can be technically right.

Sometimes we need to be picky SG. Does the 70 weeks end 3.5 years after the cross or with the destruction of the temple? does the 1,000 years end with satan's little season or the 2nd coming?

A MOD from another forum defines the Amil position as symbolic for starting at Christ's ascension and ending with the return of Christ:

Why Christians Should Embrace Partial Preterism

"One particular problem is the use of term amillennialism. Amillennialism means no millennial period set between two specific events in history matching 1000 years. In the amillennial view, the 1000 years is symbolic and starts at the Ascension of Christ and ends with the physical return of Christ at the Second coming. "

The Millennial Kingdom by John Walvoord in regards to Amillinnialsim:

"The present age is between the first and second comings is the fulfillment of the millennium. Its adherents are divided on whether the millennium is being fulfilled now on earth (Augustine) or whether it is being fulfilled by the saints in heaven (Kliefoth)".

From the Handbook of Evangelical Theology by Robert Lightner quoting from J.G. Vos:

"Amillennialism teaches that there will be a parallel and contemporaneous development of good and evil-God's kingdom and satan's kingdom-in this world, which will continue until the second coming."

Even theopedia defines it the same way:

Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism) is the view in Christian eschatology which states that Christ is presently reigning through the Church, and that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20:1-6 is a metaphorical reference to the present church age which will culminate in Christ's return"

Why Christians Should Embrace Partial Preterism

the link you provided in post 15 of another forum, diagrams the amil position. In this diagram the millennium is symbolic for the church age, which begins at the cross and ends at the 2nd coming. The diagram has "satan's littles season" at the end of the symbolic millennium/church age, NOT after it.

https://www.christianforums.com/dat...7/310297_f35f57c294d6150377c54064f0881f64.svg

If you believe the 1,000 years ends right before satan's little season, then what do you believe the 1,000 years is representative of?

Revelation 20:3 plainly states meta tauta (or) "after that he (Satan) must be loosed a little season.” This begs a crucial question: after what is Satan's "little season" introduced? The answer has to be “after” the 1,000 years (regardless of whether this represents a literal or indefinite symbolic period) are teleo are ended, expired, completed, executed, concluded, finished and fulfilled.

If it is not “after” the 1,000 years are “fulfilled” (Revelation 20:3) / “expired” (Revelation 20:7) then what is it after?

Berean Tim · Apr 4, 2020

If the Coming of the Lord was the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Why were the Thessalonians so worried about it ?
1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,a 2not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

DavidPT · Apr 4, 2020

Andrewn said:
As you know my views are Amil. And I agree that the fate of the satan and the beast empires are tied together. But I understand the 42 months of Rev 12 as taking place in the beginning of the Millennium. This is also in agreement with most scholars who see Nero Caesar as a manifestation of the Beast.

Do you agree that this a reasonable alternative view?

Even though you didn't ask me, I don't mind telling you, no it's not a reasonable position, and the following are some reasons why.

Your view makes no sense. The very same beast in Revelation 13, and the very same false prophet in Revelation 13, both of these get cast alive into the LOF when Christ bodily returns at the end of this age. This is why the 42 month reign of the beast has to occur in the end of this age and not 2000 years earlier instead. Both the beast and the false prophet obviously have to be alive and well at the time in order to be captured then cast into the LOF at the end of this age.

This also presents a major problem for Amils such as SG, but in a different way. Amils such as SG need the 42 month reign of the beast to occur after the thousand years during satan's little season. Any objective unbiased person sticking strictly to the text would see that it is impossible according to Revelation 20:4, though. Some of those in that verse are obviously martyred during the 42 month rule of the beast in Revelation 13 before satan is ever loosed from the pit. Therefore the 42 month reign of the beast can't be after the thousand years if it has already been fulfilled before satan is ever loosed.

and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, during the 42 month reign of the beast; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

That's exactly how that part should be understood. How can it not be? So how can the 42 month reign of the beast be after the thousand years? It can't, so why would anyone argue otherwise? Obviously, in order to make it appear to the ones not paying attention to the texts in question, that the Amil position agrees with the texts in question, even though it literally doesn't.

sovereigngrace · Apr 4, 2020

DavidPT said:
Even though you didn't ask me, I don't mind telling you, no it's not a reasonable position, and the following are some reasons why.

Your view makes no sense. The very same beast in Revelation 13, and the very same false prophet in Revelation 13, both of these get cast alive into the LOF when Christ bodily returns at the end of this age. This is why the 42 month reign of the beast has to occur in the end of this age and not 2000 years earlier instead. Both the beast and the false prophet obviously have to be alive and well at the time in order to be captured then cast into the LOF at the end of this age.

This also presents a major problem for Amils such as SG, but in a different way. Amils such as SG need the 42 month reign of the beast to occur after the thousand years during satan's little season. Any objective unbiased person sticking strictly to the text would see that it is impossible according to Revelation 20:4, though. Some of those in that verse are obviously martyred during the 42 month rule of the beast in Revelation 13 before satan is ever loosed from the pit. Therefore the 42 month reign of the beast can't be after the thousand years if it has already been fulfilled before satan is ever loosed.

and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, during the 42 month reign of the beast; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

That's exactly how that part should be understood. How can it not be? So how can the 42 month reign of the beast be after the thousand years? It can't, so why would anyone argue otherwise? Obviously, in order to make it appear to the ones not paying attention to the texts in question, that the Amil position agrees with the texts in question, even though it literally doesn't.

Rev 20 takes us right back to the first resurrection - Christ's triumphant victory over sin, death and the grave. After Satan's little season is the second coming.

DavidPT · Apr 4, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
There is absolutely no correlation between Revelation 20 and Zachariah 14. If you believe otherwise, then could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts)?

I will not hold my breath, as no Premil I know can address this, because they are speaking about 2 different time periods.

Premils have addressed this before. I know I have, probably numerous times. You simply rejected anything Premils argued, and that you will obviously continue to do so, regardless. Why? Because you are not actually willing to be objective here, the fact your mind is already made up, period. That's fine, can't fault you for already having your mind made up about something, when I do the same at times, for example, in regards to Pretrib. But you shouldn't be giving the false impression that you're actually willing to be objective about Premils' showing how the thousand years correlates with some of Zechariah 14, when you are obviously not willing to be objective about that.

sovereigngrace · Apr 4, 2020

Berean Tim said:
If the Coming of the Lord was the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Why were the Thessalonians so worried about it ?
1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,a 2not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Exactly! They lived nowhere near Jerusalem, or would they likely have visited it in their lifetime.

sovereigngrace · Apr 4, 2020

DavidPT said:
Premils have addressed this before. I know I have, probably numerous times. You simply rejected anything Premils argued, and that you will obviously continue to do so, regardless. Why? Because you are not actually willing to be objective here, the fact your mind is already made up, period. That's fine, can't fault you for already having your mind made up about something, when I do the same at times, for example, in regards to Pretrib. But you shouldn't be giving the false impression that you're actually willing to be objective about Premils' showing how the thousand years correlates with some of Zechariah 14, when you are obviously not willing to be objective about that.

That's not true, and you know it. You and other Premils avoid this because you have no answer. You have not addressed it. You cannot address it. Both passages contradict each other. Zechariah 14 is historic. Revelation 20 refers to the intra-Advent period.

Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?
Where in Zechariah 14 is the new earth mentioned?
Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?
Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth?
Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?
Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?
Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?

DavidPT · Apr 4, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Rev 20 takes us right back to the first resurrection - Christ's triumphant victory over sin, death and the grave. After Satan's little season is the second coming.

Which comes first, the thousand years or satan's little season? When does Revelation 20:4 indicate there are martyrs for not worshiping the beast? Does it indicate these are martyred during satan's little season after the thousand years? Do you think the events recorded in Revelation 13 are fulfilled twice, at different times? Before there can be a mark to receive or to refuse, before there can be an image to worship or not worship, that requires that a beast first rises out of the sea, and another out of the earth. When do you think both of those things happen in order for there to already be martyrs for not worshiping the beast, neither his image, before satan is ever loosed from the pit?

You indicate---"Rev 20 takes us right back to the first resurrection - Christ's triumphant victory over sin, death and the grave". Even if it did, there are still saints that are martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast before satan is ever loosed from the pit. That means you would need to place the 42 month reign of the beast prior to Christ's triumphant victory over sin, death and the grave. That obviously can't end in the 2nd coming if the 42 month reign of the beast precedes the time of the cross.

The point is, the 42 month reign of the beast has to precede the thousand years, and that only per Premil can that end with the 2nd coming following that reign. You OTOH are trying to do all sorts of gymnastics with the texts, by placing the 42 month reign of the beast where it can't possibly fit. It fits before the thousand years, not after the thousand years. That's Premil not Amil, and that Premil doesn't have to do all sorts of gymnastics with the texts in order for Premil to work. But Amil does. Most people would see that as a big red flag.

sovereigngrace · Apr 4, 2020

DavidPT said:
Which comes first, the thousand years or satan's little season? When does Revelation 20:4 indicate there are martyrs for not worshiping the beast? Does it indicate these are martyred during satan's little season after the thousand years? Do you think the events recorded in Revelation 13 are fulfilled twice, at different times? Before there can be a mark to receive or to refuse, before there can be an image to worship or not worship, that requires that a beast first rises out of the sea, and another out of the earth. When do you think both of those things happen in order for there to already be martyrs for not worshiping the beast, neither his image, before satan is ever loosed from the pit?

You indicate---"Rev 20 takes us right back to the first resurrection - Christ's triumphant victory over sin, death and the grave". Even if it did, there are still saints that are martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast before satan is ever loosed from the pit. That means you would need to place the 42 month reign of the beast prior to Christ's triumphant victory over sin, death and the grave. That obviously can't end in the 2nd coming if the 42 month reign of the beast precedes the time of the cross.

The point is, the 42 month reign of the beast has to precede the thousand years, and that only per Premil can that end with the 2nd coming following that reign. You OTOH are trying to do all sorts of gymnastics with the texts, by placing the 42 month reign of the beast where it can't possibly fit. It fits before the thousand years, not after the thousand years. That's Premil not Amil, and that Premil doesn't have to do all sorts of gymnastics with the texts in order for Premil to work. But Amil does. Most people would see that as a big red flag.

Not so! Your major problem is, you still do not grasp Amil. If you would listen, instead of talk all the time you would quickly grasp it.

The spiritual restraint of the kingdom of darkness does not negate its ability to do harm. Just like a prisoner in a prison can still kill, rape, or take dope, the devil, the beast and their kingdom are still active within their heavenly boundaries. The one thing they cannot stop, up until Satan's little season, is the free spread of the Gospel. Every time they have tried that over 2000 years it has backfired on them.

Contrary to what many imagine, or have been taught, the beast, antichrist, the mystery of iniquity, the son of perdition, and that Wicked one, have been about for 2,000 yrs+. The beast therefore has to be a system, kingdom or a spirit. It obviously cannot be a man.

Most Bible scholars of whatever persuasion identify “the Beast” with “antichrist” and the “mystery of iniquity”. They believe that they all refer to the same entity. Also, “that man of sin,” “the son of perdition,” and “that Wicked” one.

The reason why many good Bible scholars have held that the “man of sin” is not a lone human being is because he has been alive and kicking for a lot longer than the lifetime of any human. In fact, the beast/antichrist/the mystery of iniquity/the son of perdition/that Wicked one has been about for 2,000 yrs+.

The Beast

Revelation 17:8 states, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

Revelation 17:9-13 further enlarges, “The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

That spirit of antichrist

1 John 2:18-23: “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

1 John 4:1-3, 5-6: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world … They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

2 John 1:7: “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

The mystery of iniquity (or lawlessness)

Paul explains in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 of his day, “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

That man of sin

2 Thessalonians 2:1-13 declares: “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the Second Coming) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

I put it to you we are looking at a spirit – a spirit that is the direct antithesis of the Holy Spirit.

The thousand years/Satan's little season refers to the here and now.

DavidPT · Apr 4, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
That's not true, and you know it. You and other Premils avoid this because you have no answer. You have not addressed it. You cannot address it. Both passages contradict each other. Zechariah 14 is historic. Revelation 20 refers to the intra-Advent period.

Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the new earth mentioned?

Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?

Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?

Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?

If Scripture interprets Scripture, like even you claim to believe, It doesn't have to mention any of those things in Zechariah 14 if those things are already mentioned elsewhere and are connected with what is recorded in Zechariah 14.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. The fulfillment of Zechariah 14:16-19 is obviously meaning post the fulfillment of the events recorded in verse 5. What I have quoted from verse 5, the only thing that can possibly explain that is the 2nd coming.

Per Amil, all of the lost are cast into the LOF the same day Christ returns, leaving nothing but saints who have put on bodily immortality. That would mean the following would have to be understood like such, which of course is utterly nonsensical, as will be seen.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every immortal saint that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that which ever immortal saints will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of immortal saints of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen immortal saints that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of immortal saints in Egypt, and the punishment of immortal saints in all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

You will likely argue per the following.

Joel 3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

According to Joel 3:19 how can post the 2nd coming be meant in Zechariah 14:16-19 if Egypt shall be a desolation after the 2nd coming? Fair question. In return I would argue, how can Zechariah 14:5 not involve the 2nd coming, and how can Zechariah 14:16-19 not be meaning chronologically after Zechariah 14:5?

As to the issue with Egypt, perhaps there is a solution.

Ezekiel 29:12 And I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries.
13 Yet thus saith the Lord GOD; At the end of forty years will I gather the Egyptians from the people whither they were scattered:
14 And I will bring again the captivity of Egypt, and will cause them to return into the land of Pathros, into the land of their habitation; and they shall be there a base kingdom.
15 It shall be the basest of the kingdoms; neither shall it exalt itself any more above the nations: for I will diminish them, that they shall no more rule over the nations.

And if these things haven't been fulfilled yet, the desolation in Joel 3:19 isn't meaning forever, but is only meaning 40 years. And when the 40 years are expired, Egypt, even in Zechariah 14, would obviously be the basest of kingdoms at that point, neither shall it exalt itself any more above the nations, etc.

It seems to me then, if Zechariah 14:16-19 is meaning post the 2nd coming, only the thousand years can explain these things since these left of the nations would have to be mortals, and that no mortal can live forever.

sovereigngrace · Apr 4, 2020

DavidPT said:
If Scripture interprets Scripture, like even you claim to believe, It doesn't have to mention any of those things in Zechariah 14 if those things are already mentioned elsewhere and are connected with what is recorded in Zechariah 14.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. The fulfillment of Zechariah 14:16-19 is obviously meaning post the fulfillment of the events recorded in verse 5. What I have quoted from verse 5, the only thing that can possibly explain that is the 2nd coming.

Per Amil, all of the lost are cast into the LOF the same day Christ returns, leaving nothing but saints who have put on bodily immortality. That would mean the following would have to be understood like such, which of course is utterly nonsensical, as will be seen.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every immortal saint that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that which ever immortal saints will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of immortal saints of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen immortal saints that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of immortal saints in Egypt, and the punishment of immortal saints in all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

You will likely argue per the following.

Joel 3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

According to Joel 3:19 how can post the 2nd coming be meant in Zechariah 14:16-19 if Egypt shall be a desolation after the 2nd coming? Fair question. In return I would argue, how can Zechariah 14:5 not involve the 2nd coming, and how can Zechariah 14:16-19 not be meaning chronologically after Zechariah 14:5?

As to the issue with Egypt, perhaps there is a solution.

Ezekiel 29:12 And I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries.
13 Yet thus saith the Lord GOD; At the end of forty years will I gather the Egyptians from the people whither they were scattered:
14 And I will bring again the captivity of Egypt, and will cause them to return into the land of Pathros, into the land of their habitation; and they shall be there a base kingdom.
15 It shall be the basest of the kingdoms; neither shall it exalt itself any more above the nations: for I will diminish them, that they shall no more rule over the nations.

And if these things haven't been fulfilled yet, the desolation in Joel 3:19 isn't meaning forever, but is only meaning 40 years. And when the 40 years are expired, Egypt, even in Zechariah 14, would obviously be the basest of kingdoms at that point, neither shall it exalt itself any more above the nations, etc.

It seems to me then, if Zechariah 14:16-19 is meaning post the 2nd coming, only the thousand years can explain these things since these left of the nations would have to be mortals, and that no mortal can live forever.

Your supposed proof-texts are all contradicting each other. You need to read them before you post them online. This is more evidence that you have zero corroboration for Premil. Like Pretrib, it is a non-corroborative theory that is found nowhere outside of the symbolic setting of Rev 20.

How can you reconcile your conflicting “proof-texts” that in one breath teach that “every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles" (Zechariah 14:16-17) and “the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD” (Isaiah 56:6-7) yet in the next breath at the exact same time because Jerusalem is a "holy" place, a prohibition is placed on all Gentiles that "there shall no strangers pass through her any more" (Joel 3:17) and “No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel” (Ezekiel 44:9)?

If Zechariah 14 and Joel 3 relate to the second coming (as you argue) then we have another contradiction: how can we have Egypt still existing in Zechariah 14:17-19 when Joel 3 clearly demonstrates that “Egypt shall be a desolation” (v19)? How does Premil magically raise this rebellious nation?

Your doctrine simply doesn't add up.

Christian Gedge · Apr 4, 2020

claninja said:
the link you provided in post 15 of another forum, diagrams the amil position. In this diagram the millennium is symbolic for the church age, which begins at the cross and ends at the 2nd coming. The diagram has "satan's littles season" at the end of the symbolic millennium/church age, NOT after it.

Diagrams have paper size constraints. But these two major views are how I understand them to be.

keras · Apr 4, 2020

I agree with the Pre-Millennial view.
It doesn't violate any scripture. Exactly 2000 years from Jesus' Ascension until His Return, then 1000 years of the Millennium. A total of 7000 years that God has decreed for mankind.

Your comment; 'Some put resurrection, rapture and another Judgment before the Great Tribulation of the final 3 1/2 years'.
These ideas are simply not found in the Bible and are just false teachings.

sovereigngrace · Apr 4, 2020

keras said:
I agree with the Pre-Millennial view.
It doesn't violate any scripture. Exactly 2000 years from Jesus' Ascension until His Return, then 1000 years of the Millennium. A total of 7000 years that God has decreed for mankind.

Your comment; 'Some put resurrection, rapture and another Judgment before the Great Tribulation of the final 3 1/2 years'.
These ideas are simply not found in the Bible and are just false teachings.

We are in the year 6020. So, you would agree that we are now in the millennium?

Premils keep moving the duration of the earth and time to fit their false teaching. It is a bit like Y2K in the 2000 AD. Many abandoned Premil after that farce.

Christian Gedge · Apr 4, 2020

keras said:
Your comment; 'Some put resurrection, rapture and another Judgment before the Great Tribulation of the final 3 1/2 years'.
These ideas are simply not found in the Bible and are just false teachings.

I can agree with that part of your post.

DavidPT · Apr 4, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Not so! Your major problem is, you still do not grasp Amil. If you would listen, instead of talk all the time you would quickly grasp it.

The spiritual restraint of the kingdom of darkness does not negate its ability to do harm. Just like a prisoner in a prison can still kill, rape, or take dope, the devil, the beast and their kingdom are still active within their heavenly boundaries. The one thing they cannot stop, up until Satan's little season, is the free spread of the Gospel. Every time they have tried that over 2000 years it has backfired on them.

Contrary to what many imagine, or have been taught, the beast, antichrist, the mystery of iniquity, the son of perdition, and that Wicked one, have been about for 2,000 yrs+. The beast therefore has to be a system, kingdom or a spirit. It obviously cannot be a man.

Most Bible scholars of whatever persuasion identify “the Beast” with “antichrist” and the “mystery of iniquity”. They believe that they all refer to the same entity. Also, “that man of sin,” “the son of perdition,” and “that Wicked” one.

The reason why many good Bible scholars have held that the “man of sin” is not a lone human being is because he has been alive and kicking for a lot longer than the lifetime of any human. In fact, the beast/antichrist/the mystery of iniquity/the son of perdition/that Wicked one has been about for 2,000 yrs+.

The Beast

Revelation 17:8 states, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

Revelation 17:9-13 further enlarges, “The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

That spirit of antichrist

1 John 2:18-23: “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

1 John 4:1-3, 5-6: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world … They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

2 John 1:7: “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

The mystery of iniquity (or lawlessness)

Paul explains in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 of his day, “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

That man of sin

2 Thessalonians 2:1-13 declares: “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the Second Coming) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

I put it to you we are looking at a spirit – a spirit that is the direct antithesis of the Holy Spirit.

The thousand years/Satan's little season refers to the here and now.

You accuse me of not listening, yet you are not listening to me either. Something has got to trump here, regardless. What trumps here is what Revelation 20:4 indicates.

If the text in Revelation 20 allowed for the 42 month reign of the beast to occur after the thousand years, I would have to seriously consider Amil at that point, regardless what I feel about Premil. Because in my mind, if the 42 month reign of the beast can fit after the thousand years, that makes the odds of Amil being the correct position that much greater. Also in my mind, if the 42 month reign of the beast can't fit after the thousand years, that makes the odds of Amil being the correct position zero, as in impossible. You have to first prove how those martyred in Revelation 20:4 for not worshiping the beast, that these didn't get martyred during it's 42 month reign, and that they didn't get martyred before satan is ever loosed from the pit, but instead are martyred after he is released from the pit. You can post Scripture after Scripture all day long where you feel this supports Amil, but until you deal with Revelation 20:4 first, you're basically putting the cart before the horse.

Surely God knew there was going to be this debate over this thousand years. So in my mind, He leaves clues that should be putting the debate to rest, rather than the debate continuing on endlessly. One of those clues He left for us appears to be in Revelation 20:4---and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---thus telling us that these are martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast before satan is ever loosed from the pit. Not only is this clue telling us that, it is also telling us these are martyred when satan is not even in the pit. Only two times when he is not in the pit. Before the thousand years and after the thousand years, therefore it has to be one of these times. And since it can't be after the thousand years, what other option does that leave?

keras · Apr 4, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
We are in the year 6020. So, you would agree that we are now in the millennium?

Premils keep moving the duration of the earth and time to fit their false teaching. It is a bit like Y2K in the 2000 AD. Many abandoned Premil after that farce.

We are in the year 5990 since Adam. Proved by the careful addition of the given time periods in the Bible. There were exactly 2000 years Adam to Abraham, then 2000 years Abraham to Jesus, and now, nearly completed: 2000 years between Jesus commencing His ministry and His Return.

Can you prove your time of 6020?
The belief of being in the millennium now, is quite untenable and is a contradiction of much scripture.

Christian Gedge said:
I can agree with that part of your post.

That's a good start! Now just realize that Jesus WILL come again and He WILL reign on earth for 1000 years, all as plainly prophesied in the Bible. Psalms 110:2

A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

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