Law of Moses written on heart and mind under the NEW Covenant

BobRyan · Apr 4, 2020

BobRyan said: ↑
3. It's both Jews and gentiles gettting gospel teaching "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4

swordsman1 said:
They were not Christians in that synagogue on the Sabbath. It says Paul "reasoned" and "tried to persuade Jews and Greeks". He was trying to convert unbelievers.

Who were accepting and yet there EVERY Sabbath.

the point remains.

There was no "and then showing up the next day for more preaching" in the text though it could be much-imagined as an insert into the text.

Neither 1 Cor 7:19 nor Rev 14:12 say "the Ten commandments". You are employing eisegesis.[/QUOTE]

expos4ever · Apr 4, 2020

Consider this text from Romans 3:

Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Without consideration of context, the way it reads depends on pre-suppositions you bring to it. For example, if you come to the text believing that this “Law” is something universal to all mankind, you can perfectly legitimately see this text as consistent with your view. However, if you come to the text believing that the “Law” is something for Jews only (such as the Law of Moses), you can also perfectly legitimately see this text as endorsing such a view.

We resolve this by context. In chapters 1, 2, and the first 18 verses of chapter 3, Paul repeatedly distinguishes between the Jew and the Gentile – that distinction is all over the place. And in Romans 2, he very clearly asserts that the Gentile is not under the Law:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,….

Now we can, and no doubt will, debate what it means for the Gentile to “instinctively do the things of the Law”. But the key point is this: the Gentile is not under the jurisdiction of the Law. That I need to point this out is an indictment of the lack of Biblical literacy we see in this forum – the Old Testament makes it punishingly obvious: the Law of Moses was for Israel and Israel only. Here, then, is what I believe Paul is saying in Romans 3:19-20:

Now we know that whatever the Law says, it says to those who are under it, that is the Isrealite. And since I have just now (in verses 1 through 18) told you that (1) the Jew is a sinner; and (2) the Gentile is a sinner, I conclude that the whole world is accountable. For you Jews, keeping the Law will not spare you – it only reveals sin.

expos4ever · Apr 4, 2020

HARK! said:
Next time read your Bible.

You mean like this?

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make [o]yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything [p]that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.

I am sure all those following along will want to know: If the rest of the nations are to follow the dietary restrictions associated with the Law of Moses, why does God here clearly indicate that those restrictions set the Israelite apart?

I will be interested to read your reply.

Bob S · Apr 4, 2020

Thank you expos4rever. You have much insight. What are your thoughts on 2 Cor 3:6-11? My thoughts are that Paul is telling us that the ministry of death, the ten commandments, were the temporary guide for Israel and have been replaced by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The KJV says the ten are done away. The NIV says they were transitory. Ellen White, the prophet of the SDAs wrote that the "ceremonial" laws of the law of Moses were nailed to the cross. She was, I believe, referring to the 603 Laws that God dictated to Moses to write in the book of the Law. She didn't hold fast to her words though because she proclaimed that her flock must obey the tithing laws and the unclean animal laws of the "ceremonial" laws.

expos4ever · Apr 4, 2020

Bob S said:
Thank you expos4rever. You have much insight. What are your thoughts on 2 Cor 3:6-11? My thoughts are that Paul is telling us that the ministry of death, the ten commandments, were the temporary guide for Israel and have been replaced by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The KJV says the ten are done away. The NIV says they were transitory.

Thanks for your kind words. My thought on 2 Cor 3:6-11 are that this text aligns well with the following picture that I outlined in another thread (this picture comes from NT Wright):

- The Law of Moses was given to Israel in order to effectively lure "sin", understood as a power or even a personal force, to take up residence in Israel. Paul arguably makes this case most strongly in Romans 5 and Romans 7.

- With sin thus localized in Israel, it is then focussed onto the one faithful Israelite - Jesus;

- Sin has essentially been "tricked" or "lured" onto Jesus, enabling God to condemn sin, not Jesus (see Romans 8), on the cross.

- The Law has completed its mission as "flypaper for sin" and can now be retired.

I realize this picture is odd, but I think it respects what Paul actually writes - the Law of Moses had a dark, hidden purpose in the broader plan of redemption: "trick" sin (which Paul sometimes characterizes as an intelligent power, or force) into making its home in Israel through a Law that actually encourages sinful desire.

swordsman1 · Apr 4, 2020

BobRyan said:
You were shown that there is no "Just for Jews" element in Rom 3:19-20,23,31

[Sigh]. I have already answered this.

There IS a "Just for Jews" element in Rom 3:19-20,23,31

Rom 3:19 "Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law,"

Those who are under the law are Jews only. Read Rom 2:12....

Rom 2:12 "For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law."

Paul divides sinners into 2 groups: those who sin without the law, and those who sin under the law. In verse 14 Paul then says that Gentiles belong to the group without the law. That means that Jews only belong to the group who are under the Law.

BobRyan said:
you were shown that the scope for Sabbath keeping is "all mankind" even in the OT Isaiah 66:23

I have already refuted your theory that all mankind will worship literally from "Sabbath to Sabbath". I'm not repeating myself again here. See posts #48 and #65. You have not responded to post #65.

BobRyan said:
you were shown that the KJV has not be "refuted" since even the NASB keeps making that same point in James 2.

Your argument on that issue was with expos4ever, not me! But he seems to be doing a pretty good job at refuting you as well.

BobRyan said:
in fact every Christian denomination on planet earth can clearly see are flawed as my signature line shows with ALL of them affirming ALL TEN of the TEN Commandments included in the LAW of God written on the heart under the NEW covenant - and known to Jeremiah and his readers in Jer 31:31-34

That is not true. There are quite a few churches and denominations that are non-sabbatarian. It is no secret that Christians are divided on whether they are under all of the 10 commandments. Those that do, including those listed in your sig, do NOT affirm your understanding of the 4th commandment.

I myself believe we should obey 9 of them. Not because we are under the Law, but because we obey the moral law that is written in our hearts, and the commandments given in the NT which reinforce all of them with the notable exception of the 4th.

BobRyan said:
Having failed so spectacularly you then ask in effect "why is it that these irrefutable details keep coming up each time you offer one of your failed suggestions".

The irony of your statement did make me chuckle!

swordsman1 · Apr 4, 2020

BobRyan said:
It is "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4 and the ones in Acts 13 hear the gospel and THEN ask that more preaching be presented "NEXT Sabbath" instead of your much expected "tomorrow" --

Why would they invite Paul "tomorrow" when the next meeting of the synagogue was the following sabbath?

BobRyan said:
The text you are 'not quoting' says this -

42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. - Acts 13

AFTER hearing the Gospel it is Gospel ACCEPTING gentiles that ask for MORE gospel preaching next Sabbath.

It doesn't say "Gospel ACCEPTING gentiles". You are employing eisegesis again and adding your own slant. In fact it doesn't even say "gentiles". That is another mis-translation of the KJV bible. The word "gentiles" does not appear in the Greek. The word is "they" (αὐτῶν). See Acts 13:42 Interlinear

BobRyan · Apr 4, 2020

swordsman1 said:
Why would they invite Paul "tomorrow" when the next meeting of the synagogue was the following sabbath?

Why would those gentiles NOT ask to meet "tomorrow" given that they were just given the gospel.

swordsman1 said:
It doesn't say "Gospel ACCEPTING gentiles".

Why not read the chapter instead "just saying no" every time I give you some information from scripture??

Notice that clinging to a "Gospel denying gentiles" idea in Acts 13 - is pure eisegesis.

Acts 13
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next Sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

That first Sabbath -- one sermon they followed Paul and asked 'for more' so they could get their gentile friends in on it.

That second Sabbath -- one sermon.. they believed

The "no believing gentiles were going to dare worship God according to His commandment" idea cannot be found in the chapter at all... and I think we both know it.

BobRyan · Apr 4, 2020

swordsman1 said:
Why are you repeating a post (#39) that I have already responded to?

Because the Bible texts in that post "remain" and they are "irrefutable" -- you keep "setting up those texts" by making statements that are totally debunked by the texts you are not quoting though you claim you see them.

Why do you do that - do you think we will just "forget" that they perfectly slam dunk the suggestion you make to the contrary? I don't see the point in it.

Do you want me to repeat my reply (#48)?

It would be interesting if you could show how your reply survives the "details" in the texts quoted for you.

Take a shot at it.

============== a simple example of one fail in your post
you claimed

swordsman1 said: ↑
The law is a schoolmaster to the Jew

Implying that Rom 3:19-20 has some sort of "just for Jews" element in it.

To which you got this response

I like most members of my church "am a gentile" but I have a Bible.
The gentiles of Acts 17:11 also had access to scripture

1. No text says "the Law is a school master but just to the Jew".
2. Gentiles in the synagogue on Sabbath hearing gospel preaching "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4
3. Gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath blessing in Isaiah 56:6-8
4. "ALL MANKIND" to worship on Sabbath for all eternity after the cross Isaiah 66:23
5. the LAW of God condemns "ALL the World" and in fact "every mouth" according to Paul in Rom 3:19-20 where that LAW of God is the one where "The first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment - Eph 6:1-2
6. Rom 3:19-20,23 The LAW of God leads all mankind to Christ by first convicting them of SIN - which is the "transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 (KJV)

You were shown that there is no "Just for Jews" element in Rom 3:19-20,23,31
you were shown that the scope for Sabbath keeping is "all mankind" even in the OT Isaiah 66:23
you were shown that the KJV has not be "refuted" since even the NASB keeps making that same point in James 2.

These are obvious Bible details that not only refute your suggestion but in fact every Christian denomination on planet earth can clearly see are flawed as my signature line shows with ALL of them affirming ALL TEN of the TEN Commandments included in the LAW of God written on the heart under the NEW covenant - and known to Jeremiah and his readers in Jer 31:31-34

Having failed so spectacularly you then ask in effect "why is it that these irrefutable details keep coming up each time you offer one of your failed suggestions".

How could they NOT??

emotion and enthusiasm are not compelling substitutes for "Bible fact" -- I hope you and I can at least agree on that "detail"

swordsman1 said:
[Sigh]. I have already answered this.

There IS a "Just for Jews" element in Rom 3:19-20,23,31

That speculation was already debunked - do yo want me to post it again??

Bible details so obvious that all major denomination on planet earth admit to it.

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (not just jews)

1 John 3:4 "sin is transgression of the law" -- (not ... "just for jews")

Rom 3:19-20 "every mouth" and "all the world" have the problem of sin.. all the world needs salvation "not just Jews"

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:31 "do WE then make void the LAW of God by our faith? on the contrary! We ESTABLISH the LAW"

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm ALL TEN of the Ten Commandments for Christians written on heart and mind under the NEW Covenant.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

swordsman1 said:
Those who are under the law are Jews only.

sigh... that was already refuted. Read the actual text you are trying to undo. Rom 3:19-20, 23.

swordsman1 said:
I have already refuted your theory that all mankind will worship literally from "Sabbath to Sabbath".

you objected to the details in the text but sadly for your suggestion just then - you did not refute that text. you just said that if it means what it says then in that New Earth we would also keep both Sabbath and the New Moon --

And you were told that in that Rev 21 scenario there would be two creation events to remember - the earth made in Genesis 1-2 and the New Earth made in Rev 21 so "yeah" - that would be both the weekly Sabbath and the New Moon.

Your argument "against" the text of scripture was merely that God could not seriously want you to keep two memorials of creation -- as if that is even a basis for arguing against a text of scripture.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

expos4ever · Apr 4, 2020

swordsman1 said:
Paul divides sinners into 2 groups: those who sin without the law, and those who sin under the law. In verse 14 Paul then says that Gentiles belong to the group without the law. That means that Jews only belong to the group who are under the Law.

You are, of course, correct. And, no disrespect intended to you (or me, by implication since I agree with you), a 12-year old would see this. Therefore, it is difficult to imagine that we are not dealing with posters who are in abject denial.

I think I get the psychology here - people very understandably (although incorrectly) see the Law as God's "timeless universal rulebook". And so, naturally enough, they recoil from the suggestion that the Law could be for Israel only. What is disturbing, though, is the outright dishonesty we are seeing from posters on the other side of this issue.

expos4ever · Apr 4, 2020

BobRyan said:
you were shown that the scope for Sabbath keeping is "all mankind" even in the OT Isaiah 66:23

You are over-reaching. Here is the text:

And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord

While your interpretation is consistent with this text, it is not the only legitimate reading. In fact, all this text is saying is that over time, all mankind will bow. And, yes, that time is reckoned in Law of Moses terms. But the text does not clearly state that all mankind will be subject to Sabbaths.

Dkh587 · Apr 4, 2020

expos4ever said:
Consider this text from Romans 3:

Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Without consideration of context, the way it reads depends on pre-suppositions you bring to it. For example, if you come to the text believing that this “Law” is something universal to all mankind, you can perfectly legitimately see this text as consistent with your view. However, if you come to the text believing that the “Law” is something for Jews only (such as the Law of Moses), you can also perfectly legitimately see this text as endorsing such a view.

We resolve this by context. In chapters 1, 2, and the first 18 verses of chapter 3, Paul repeatedly distinguishes between the Jew and the Gentile – that distinction is all over the place. And in Romans 2, he very clearly asserts that the Gentile is not under the Law:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,….

Now we can, and no doubt will, debate what it means for the Gentile to “instinctively do the things of the Law”. But the key point is this: the Gentile is not under the jurisdiction of the Law. That I need to point this out is an indictment of the lack of Biblical literacy we see in this forum – the Old Testament makes it punishingly obvious: the Law of Moses was for Israel and Israel only. Here, then, is what I believe Paul is saying in Romans 3:19-20:

Now we know that whatever the Law says, it says to those who are under it, that is the Isrealite. And since I have just now (in verses 1 through 18) told you that (1) the Jew is a sinner; and (2) the Gentile is a sinner, I conclude that the whole world is accountable. For you Jews, keeping the Law will not spare you – it only reveals sin.

Another great example of eisegesis.

expos4ever · Apr 4, 2020

Dkh587 said:
Another great example of eisegesis.

Another great example of an evasive non-answer.

Please address the details of my argument. If I am mistaken, you should be able to explain why I am mistaken.

expos4ever · Apr 4, 2020

A simple, short, clear question: For those of you who believe that the Gentile is subject to the Law of Moses, what does Paul means by the phrase "without the Law"?:

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law,...

This should be fascinating........

BobRyan · Apr 4, 2020

swordsman1 said:
I have already refuted your theory that all mankind will worship literally from "Sabbath to Sabbath".

On the contrary - you merely complained that God cannot possibly want mankind to remember two creation events - one in Gen 1-2 via the 7 day Sabbath cycle AND the New Earth in Rev 21 via the new moon cycle. "As if" what you would allow God to say or do "is a bible argument" of some sort. Who could then argue "I reject Isaiah 66:23 because swordsman1 on some discussion board does not want to allow God to actually have mankind come before him to worship on two time cycles like that".

I don't even know how you count that as "refuting anything"

swordsman1 said:
You have not responded to post #65.

That is pretty helpful - I will check it out.

BobRyan · Apr 4, 2020

It was claimed that this post

swordsman1 said:
swordsman1 said:

Gal 3:24-25 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

Click to expand...

The role of God's Law, God's Commandments, for the lost is to "convict of sin" Rom 3:19-20 "Every mouth" in fact "all the world". For "ALL have sinned" Rom 3:23 and "just the jews have sinned". All need the gospel. Rom 3

swordsman1 said:

The people in those synagogues were not Christians! Paul was "reasoning" and "trying to persuade" the people there to become Christians!

Click to expand...

Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things were so"

They don't "suddenly lose their Bible" when they become a Christian.

Isaiah 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" for all eternity, after the cross, in the New Earth

swordsman1 said:

No, that verse is simply an illustration of weekly and monthly regularity.

Click to expand...

No such thing in all of scripture as "from Sabbath to Sabbath" means "weekly regularity" but not actually from Sabbath to Sabbath. No text demands such extreme inference.

swordsman1 said:

If you wish to take it literally then we should also expect to hold a worship service on every day there is a new moon!

Click to expand...

Indeed we would in that "New Earth" of Rev 21 since at that time there would be TWO creation events to hold in memorial. One in Genesis 1-2 and one in Rev 21:1-2

was refuted by - this post

swordsman1 said:
Which only applies "to those who are under the law" (v19) ie the Jews.

How can there be a new moon in Rev 21 when there will be no moon or even night?!!

Rev 21:23 "The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light,"

So "new moon to new moon" and "Sabbath to Sabbath" in Isa 66 is referring to monthly and weekly timespans, not to a literal new moon or literal Sabbath that all mankind will forever observe.

Rom 3:19 does not say "just the jews sin" - as we all know. It is "every mouth" and "All the world" and then concludes with vs 23 "ALL have sinned".

Bible details matter..

You were already shown this about half a dozen times by now. so not sure how you consider that point "not answered".. Just read the actual chapter of Romans 3 that ends with

"do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! IN fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

Isaiah 66:23 says "from New moon to New moon AND from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Some would object - saying God cannot possibly mean it just that way because it is too many times of asking mankind to worship -- or else another reason could be that God's Word might be bent to say "there is no moon" at the time of the New Earth.

swordsman1 said:
How can there be a new moon in Rev 21 when there will be no moon or even night?!!

Rev 21:23 "The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light,"

You provide a text that says "THE CITY has no NEED" of the sun or moon and bend it to support your claim that THERE IS NO SUN or MOON for all of planet earth in the New Earth.... as if... "we would not notice" that those are two different statements.

And you call that "refuting"?? seriously??

I am more than happy to say you have your own ideas and the free will to believe them - but your claim is that you have refuted something. OR did I miss what you are claiming??

You are limiting yourself to "refuting via extreme inference alone" - you are welcome to do it.. but it is not "the most compelling" method.

BobRyan · Apr 4, 2020

expos4ever said:
A simple, short, clear question: For those of you who believe that the Gentile is subject to the Law of Moses, what does Paul means by the phrase "without the Law"?:

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law,...

This should be fascinating........

The Jews had scripture, the Bible, the Word of God... gentiles that were simply pagans and not those attending synagogue services (as in Acts 13, 17, 18:4 gentiles hearing scripture ) all the gentiles had to guide them was "paganism" .. and the Holy Spirit as He impresses the pagan. Paul calls that state of darkness "without the law" in Romans 2.

Context is everything...particularly when Paul's own clarifying statements remove all doubt in the chapter that apparently "somebody does not want to quote" if it is going to say that all have sinned , all break the law, all need the gospel.

Romans 3
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

And what does the WORD of God say?

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (not just jews)

1 John 3:4 "sin is transgression of the law" -- (not ... "just for jews")

Rom 3:19-20 "every mouth" and "all the world" have the problem of sin.. all the world needs salvation "not just Jews"

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:31 "do WE then make void the LAW of God by our faith? on the contrary! We ESTABLISH the LAW"

BobRyan · Apr 4, 2020

BobRyan said: ↑
you were shown that the scope for Sabbath keeping is "all mankind" even in the OT Isaiah 66:23

That Sabbath "for ALL MANKIND" to keep for all eternity after the cross in the NEW Earth - is the same Sabbath "made for mankind" as Christ said in Mark 2:27

It is the same Sabbath where gentiles are specifically singled out for keeping it in Isaiah 56:6-8

And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from Sabbath to Sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord -- Isaiah 66:23

Where we find Jews and gentiles assemble "every Sabbath" for more gospel preaching in Act

Regarding Isaiah 66:23

expos4ever said:
While your interpretation is consistent with this text, it is not the only legitimate reading. In fact, all this text is saying is that "over time, all mankind will bow"

How much of the actual language / words -- in the text of Isaiah 66:23 have to be deleted to "downsize" it to "over time, all mankind will bow"

IF your preference does not allow any more detail to be acknowledged in Isaiah 66:23 than "over time, all mankind will bow " -- then that is an amazing confession right at the start.

The details in the text go far beyond that watered down version.

The text says

"And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from Sabbath to Sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord "-- Isaiah 66:23

and that is for ALL eternity AFTER the cross in the New Earth - for ALL mankind

expos4ever · Apr 4, 2020

BobRyan said:
The Jews had scripture, the Bible, the Word of God... gentiles that were simply pagans and not those attending synagogue services (as in Acts 13, 17, 18:4 gentiles hearing scripture ) all the gentiles had to guide them as "paganism" .. and the Holy Spirit as He impresses the pagan. Paul calls that state of darkness "without the law" in Romans 2.

It appears as though you are arguing against your own point. Here you concede the obvious - the Gentiles had to guide them was the "spirit". Perhaps you can explain your position more clearly, but it almost seems you are saying that while the Gentile do not have access to the Law of Moses, they are still obligated to obey it. That would be a very strange position indeed.

First, we know from the Old Testament that God gives the Law to Israel in order to to set the Israelite apart from the Gentile:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make [o]yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything [p]that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.

I do not see how you can possibly square this text with a belief that the Gentiles are actually supposed to follow the Law of Moses (even if they do not have access to it).

Second, you have to buy into the absurd position that these Gentiles are magically made aware of the provisions of the Law, have to build their own temples, and celebrate festivals that they never heard of etc., etc.

BobRyan · Apr 4, 2020

expos4ever said:
A simple, short, clear question: For those of you who believe that the Gentile is subject to the Law of Moses, what does Paul means by the phrase "without the Law"?:

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law,...

This should be fascinating........

The Jews had scripture, the Bible, the Word of God...

Gentiles come in all different flavors --

--gentiles that were simply pagans (as vs those those attending synagogue services as in Acts 13, 17, 18:4 gentiles hearing scripture ) all the gentiles had to guide them was "paganism" .. and the Holy Spirit as He impresses the pagan. Paul calls that state of darkness "without the law" in Romans 2.

Context is everything...particularly when Paul's own clarifying statements remove all doubt in the chapter that apparently "somebody does not want to quote" if it is going to say that all have sinned , all break the law, all need the gospel.

Romans 2

1. It is the GENTILES that are KEEPING the LAW in Romans 2 and Jews breaking it.

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

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Romans 3
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

And what does the WORD of God say?

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (not just jews)

1 John 3:4 "sin is transgression of the law" -- (not ... "just for jews")

Rom 3:19-20 "every mouth" and "all the world" have the problem of sin.. all the world needs salvation "not just Jews"

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:31 "do WE then make void the LAW of God by our faith? on the contrary! We ESTABLISH the LAW"

expos4ever said:
It appears as though you are arguing against your own point.

I appears you are saying you are happy with my response. How is it that I would complain about you agreeing with me? I am happy to have agreement.

Law of Moses written on heart and mind under the NEW Covenant

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