A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

sovereigngrace · Apr 3, 2020

claninja said:
You are free to reject NT scripture that shows satan is loosed at the 1st advent.

a.) signs and wonders by false prophets to possibly deceive the elect associated with the detruction of Jerusalem in the 1st century
Matthew 24:24-25 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. See, I have told you in advance.

b.) Satan prowling around looking to devour someone
1 peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour

c.) Apostasy due to the antichrist in the 1st century
1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

d.) Satan disguising himself as an angel of light in order to deceive.
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

e.) Satan is loosed to persecute the church upon Christ's ascension
Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Acts 14:2-5 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers. So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands. But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles. When an attempt was made by both Gentiles and Jews, with their rulers, to mistreat them and to stone them,

Acts 8:1 And Saul was there, giving approval to Stephen’s death.
On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.

f.) Satan to soon be crushed at the time Paul wrote Romans
Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christe be with you.

We are in agreement over Satan's binding occurring at the 1st advent.

Matthew 12:29 Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil

Romans 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies

Acts 15:14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name

There is a greek verb tense called "perfect tense", which means the verb is a completed action with lasting effects. That is how I view the 1,000 year millennium. I don't view it as a time span. I view it as symbolic for a completed action at the cross. The results of this action
are:
1.) Satan bound, which allows the gospel to spread
2.) those who accept the gospel partake in the 1st resurrection
3.) Satan is loosed to persecute the church.

Do you have any non apocalyptic scripture to support your position and to show us that you are in fact interpreting this symbolic scripture correctly?

Parallel verses:

Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kings who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

Daniel 7:25-27 He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time. But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’

I am in agreement that the whole of revelation 20 is in regards to the 1st and 2nd advent. the 2nd advent being the GWTJ.

Your reasoning is nonsensical.

Satan’s incarceration in the spiritual prison of the abyss and his release from the same are tied together. They relate to the same spiritual reality. The spiritual release undoes the spiritual imprisonment. They are the antithesis to each other. They do not co-exist. One occurs after the other.
The binding and loosing are tied together. They relate to the same spiritual reality. The spiritual loosing undoes the spiritual binding. They are the antithesis to each other. They do not co-exist. One occurs after the other.
The enlightenment of the Gentiles and the curtailment of the same are tied together. They relate to the same spiritual reality. The spiritual release undoes the spiritual imprisonment. They are the antithesis to each other. They do not co-exist. One occurs after the other.

claninja · Apr 3, 2020

DavidPT said:
I can't claim the same experience, yet I have encountered many Amils since at least 2009 or so, or maybe even earlier. None of them I encountered ever claimed the millennium was from the first coming to the 2nd coming. Most of them claimed it was from the time of the cross, or from the time of the ascension, depending on which Amil I was conversing with at the time, until satan's little season, where at the end of satan's little season the 2nd coming occurs. Which then led to me asking them how do Amils know when the millennium is over and that satan's little season has begun? Most of them pointed to chapters such as 2 Thessalonians 2, Revelation 13, etc.

While I do admit that it appears to be logical that 2 Thessalonians 2 can fit satan's little season after the thousand years, Revelation 20:4 contradicts that possibility since it places the time of the 42 month reign of the beast in the past and already fulfilled before satan is ever loosed from the pit. This presents a major problem for Amil, the fact some events in 2 Thessalonians 2 are meaning during this same 42 month reign in Revelation 13. These same Amils do not deny this connection between some of the events in 2 Thessalonians 2 and the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13. Yet they still insist the thousand years and satan's little season precede the 2nd coming, regardless that Revelation 20:4 undeniably places the time of the 42 month reign of the beast as already fulfilled and in the past before satan is ever loosed from the pit. Therefore 2 Thessalonians 2 can't fit during satan's little season after all, because the 42 month reign of the beast can't fit during satan's little season, the latter not according to me, but according to Revelation 20:4.

and I saw the souls of them---and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. It is plain silly to think their martyrdom didn't occur during the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13. And the fact these same martyrs because they have been martyred, live and reign with Christ a thousand years, they obviously have already been martyred before satan is ever loosed from the pit. The 42 month reign of the beast is a one time only event. And if Revelation 20:4 is showing it already being fulfilled before satan is ever loosed from the pit, one can't then turn right around and apply it to satan's little season after the thousand years, then expect some of us to see that as a valid interpretation.

I grew up in a reformed church, and also attended reformed grade school and high school. The traditional amil belief that I was taught was that the millennium is symbolic for the time span between the 1st and 2nd advent. We were taught that Christ could return at any moment.

Here are quotes as to the traditional modern belief of Amil, showing that the millennium is symbolic for the time between the 1st and 2nd advent:

The Millennial Kingdom by John Walvoord in regards to Amillinnialsim:

"The present age is between the first and second comings is the fulfillment of the millennium. Its adherents are divided on whether the millennium is being fulfilled now on earth (Augustine) or whether it is being fulfilled by the saints in heaven (Kliefoth)".

From the Handbook of Evangelical Theology by Robert Lightner quoting from J.G. Vos:

"Amillennialism teaches that there will be a parallel and contemporaneous development of good and evil-God's kingdom and satan's kingdom-in this world, which will continue until the second coming."

Even theopedia defines it the same way:

Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism) is the view in Christian eschatology which states that Christ is presently reigning through the Church, and that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20:1-6 is a metaphorical reference to the present church age which will culminate in Christ's return"

I'm still waiting for SG to provide quotes that show modern traditional Amillennialism means otherwise.......

claninja · Apr 3, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Your reasoning is nonsensical.

Satan’s incarceration in the spiritual prison of the abyss and his release from the same are tied together. They relate to the same spiritual reality. The spiritual release undoes the spiritual imprisonment. They are the antithesis to each other. They do not co-exist. One occurs after the other.

The binding and loosing are tied together. They relate to the same spiritual reality. The spiritual loosing undoes the spiritual binding. They are the antithesis to each other. They do not co-exist. One occurs after the other.

The enlightenment of the Gentiles and the curtailment of the same are tied together. They relate to the same spiritual reality. The spiritual release undoes the spiritual imprisonment. They are the antithesis to each other. They do not co-exist. One occurs after the other.

none of this addresses the scripture I posted that shows satan being able to persecute and deceive as early as the 1st century, after the cross

sovereigngrace · Apr 3, 2020

claninja said:
You are free to reject NT scripture that shows satan is loosed at the 1st advent.

a.) signs and wonders by false prophets to possibly deceive the elect associated with the detruction of Jerusalem in the 1st century
Matthew 24:24-25 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. See, I have told you in advance.

b.) Satan prowling around looking to devour someone
1 peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour

c.) Apostasy due to the antichrist in the 1st century
1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

d.) Satan disguising himself as an angel of light in order to deceive.
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

e.) Satan is loosed to persecute the church upon Christ's ascension
Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Acts 14:2-5 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers. So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands. But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles. When an attempt was made by both Gentiles and Jews, with their rulers, to mistreat them and to stone them,

Acts 8:1 And Saul was there, giving approval to Stephen’s death.
On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.

f.) Satan to soon be crushed at the time Paul wrote Romans
Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christe be with you.

We are in agreement over Satan's binding occurring at the 1st advent.

Matthew 12:29 Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil

Romans 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies

Acts 15:14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name

There is a greek verb tense called "perfect tense", which means the verb is a completed action with lasting effects. That is how I view the 1,000 year millennium. I don't view it as a time span. I view it as symbolic for a completed action at the cross. The results of this action
are:
1.) Satan bound, which allows the gospel to spread
2.) those who accept the gospel partake in the 1st resurrection
3.) Satan is loosed to persecute the church.

Do you have any non apocalyptic scripture to support your position and to show us that you are in fact interpreting this symbolic scripture correctly?

Parallel verses:

Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kings who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

Daniel 7:25-27 He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time. But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’

I am in agreement that the whole of revelation 20 is in regards to the 1st and 2nd advent. the 2nd advent being the GWTJ.

Jude supports the view of a current binding of the whole kingdom of darkness, in v 6, when he says,“the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting desmois (Strong’s 1199) (or) chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

The demonic realm is comprehensively and wholly described in Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4 in terms that leave no room for exceptions. They are described as “the angels which kept not their first estate” (Jude 6) and "the angels that sinned" (2 Peter 2:4). Now, what devils do not come under those two broad descriptions? None, of course! If angels are not “the elect angels” (1 Timothy 5:21), then they are “the angels which kept not their first estate” (Jude 6) / "the angels that sinned" (2 Peter 2:4).

Jude like John in Revelation 20:1 uses literal terminologies to in some way impress the restricted spiritual condition of Satan and the kingdom of darkness since the cross. The literalist would do well to remember that Satan and his emissaries are spiritual-beings. Angels and demons are spiritual creations, not physical mortal creatures. It is only logical then to recognize that the binding of spiritual beings must of necessity be executed in a spiritual way not a literal physical way, as Premils argue. After all, the same God that made them spiritual must then spiritually bind them in order to curb their influence.

2 Peter 2:4 closely correlates with Jude v6, saying, “God spared not the angels that sinned, but tartaroo (or) ‘cast them down to hell’, and delivered them seiraís (or) ‘into chains’ of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

2 Peter 2:4, Jude 6 and Revelation 9:1-3 refute the idea that the abyss only becomes the domain of demons after the Coming of Christ. They show the abyss occupied now by Satan's minions, prior to the last trumpet. Revelation 9:11 also shows Satan (Abaddon/Apollyon) there as well. Of course the restrain here cannot be physical. After all, Satan is a spiritual being. He is like a dog on a chain. He cannot stop the Gospel going out to the nations since the cross. He once had that power. How can Premils recognize the restraint of the demonic host in the pit but not Satan? You cannot divorce them.

The general detail on the curtailment of the demonic realm today in 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 is enlarged upon in Revelation 9:1-3 and Revelation 20:1-3. Whilst there is differing detail, one doesn’t negate the other. After all, the release of demons prior to the end in Revelation 9:1-3 and Revelation 20:1-3 does not undo their defeated state, their guilty position, or the limitations upon which they can afflict the righteous. The only change is that God allows Satan his final throw before destruction. He is allowed to deceive and torment the wicked (Rev 9:3-6) and deceive the Gentiles again on a global scale (Rev 20:7-9). The reality is, a prisoner can have relative freedom when out of prison but can equally be tagged, kept under strict observation and be restricted as to his movement and influence. Therefore, the spiritual chains still apply albeit with wider freedom than before.

Christian Gedge · Apr 3, 2020

claninja said:
From my experience growing up as Amil, and reading about Amil, Amil's believe the millennium to be the time between the 1st and 2nd comings, and NOT the time between the 1st advent and satan's little season.

But the major event is the 2nd coming, so that is why people say it that way. I say it too. "The millennium is the time between Christ's comings." Is it not OK to summarise the broader doctrine and omit the minor issues? For example, we all say that the inter-testament spanned the era up until Christ's 1st coming. If someone objected, "What about John the Baptist?" they would technically be correct. Yes, John's short ministry came first, but that was preliminary to the major event.

So, I think your objection about Satan's little season is an unnecessary point of order.

sovereigngrace · Apr 3, 2020

claninja said:
none of this addresses the scripture I posted that shows satan being able to persecute and deceive as early as the 1st century, after the cross

Again, you are trying to rebut Amil with the Premil understanding of the spiritual restraint. That is neither fair, sensible or plausible. This shows the weakness and confusion of your position. This is common with your many neo-Full Preterist views. They don't simply add up.

Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
Does imprisonment mean immobility?
Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

We all know there are many crimes committed within the confines of a prison. Murders, rapes, drug abuse are all common within the prisons of this world. That doesn’t dilute the fact that the prisoner still remains imprisoned. In the case of Satan's prison, he too commits many crimes within his prison walls, but that does not negate the fact he is under 24 hr surveillance and is under definite and continual restraint since the cross. The chains are more effective than earthly metal ones, they are spiritual chains designed to slow him down and restrict his movement. The spiritual chains of the wicked clearly don't stop them operating within their dark prison-cell.

All sane commentators would believe that the lost are bound in a prison today. However, none would view that as a physical reality; neither would any deny the fact that those imprisoned individuals enjoy the same physical movement as the saved; the reason being that we are speaking about spiritual matters.

sovereigngrace · Apr 3, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
But the major event is the 2nd coming, so that is why people say it that way. I say it too. "The millennium is the time between Christ's comings." Is it not OK to summarise the broader doctrine and omit the minor issues. For example, we all say that the inter-testament spanned the era up until Christ's 1st coming. If someone objected, "What about John the Baptist?" they would technically be correct. Yes, John's short ministry came first, but that was preliminary to the major event.

So, I think your objection about Satan's little season is an unnecessary point of order.

Absolutely. I totally agree.

Adamina · Apr 3, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Again, you are trying to rebut Amil with the Premil understanding of the spiritual restraint. That is neither fair, sensible or plausible. This shows the weakness and confusion of your position. This is common with your many neo-Full Preterist views. They don't simply add up. All sane commentators would believe that the lost are bound in a prison today. However, none would view that as a physical reality; neither would any deny the fact that those imprisoned individuals enjoy the same physical movement as the saved; the reason being that we are speaking about spiritual matters.

Some of the Apostles were put into a prison as prophecied by our Lord Jesus.....

Luke 21:12 “But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons.You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. [Revelation 2:10?]

Peter and Paul come to mind..

Act 5:25 - So one came and told them, saying,[fn] “Look, the men whom you put in prison are standing in the temple and teaching the people!”
Act 12:6 - And when Herod was about to bring him out, that night Peter was sleeping, bound with two chains between two soldiers; and the guards before the door were keeping the prison.

Act 16:25
¶But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them
Act 16:26
Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone's chains were loosed.
=====================
Revelation also shows Christian Saints being put in a prison:

Revelation 2:10 No yet thou be fearing! which-things thou are being about to be suffering. Behold! the Devil is being about to be casting ye into a prison, that ye may be being tried. And ye shall be having tribulation ten days. Be thou becoming faithful until death! and I shall be giving to thee the Crown of the Life.[Luke 21:12?]

Revelation 2:10 Commentaries: 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

10. Fear none of] Read simply Fear not.
those things which thou shalt suffer] Probably refer primarily to a persecution immediately impending; but they are no doubt meant to apply also to the subsequent persecutions of the Church there, especially to the famous one, under the Antonines, in which Polycarp the Bishop suffered martyrdom, in a.d. 155. It will depend on the date assigned to this Book, whether Polycarp can have been Bishop at the time of this message. It is to be noted that the Jews were specially active in urging his execution, though officially it was the act of the pagan magistrates.

=================
Pulpit Commentary

Verse 10. - Fear not the things which thou art about to suffer. We must bring out the difference between "to be about to" (μέλλειν), in the first two clauses, and the simple future (ἔξετε) in the third; compare "I will show him how many things he must suffer for my Name's sake" (Acts 9:16). The devil, who inspires the "synagogue of Satan," is to be allowed to afflict them, as he afflicted Job. (For "behold," see note on ver. 22.) The expression, "some of you" (ἐξ ὑμῶν), is an interesting link of style between this book and the Fourth Gospel and the Second Epistle; we have a similar construction in John 1:24; John 7:40; John 16:17 2John 4. (For a warning of like import, but to the persecutors, not the persecuted, comp. Matthew 23:34.)

DavidPT · Apr 3, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
There is only a contradiction if Revelation is chronological. But the reality is, it is not. It describes 7 different recaps pertaining to the intra-Advent. It is basically different camera views of the same game.

Your point is moot in this case. Even I don't take the book of Revelation to be in strict chronological order from chapter 1 to chapter 22. What you are not grasping here, there is clearly chronology involved concerning the following though---the 42 month reign of the beast---the thousand years---satan's little season. For example, no reasonable person would claim satan's little season precedes the thousand years. This alone proves chronology. As to the 42 month reign of the beast, it has to chronologically fit somewhere within the timeline of events.

Unless you can think of another option, I only see 3 options where the 42 month reign of the beast can fit. 1) Before the thousand years begin. 2) During the thousand years. 3) After the thousand years.

We can discard option 3) altogether since Revelation 20:4 indicates there are already martyrs by this same beast before satan is ever loosed from the pit. That only leaves us two options. Option 2) can't work either because satan has to not be in the pit when the 42 month reign of the beast is being fulfilled. And besides, the 42 month reign of the beast wouldn't be paralleling the thousand years to begin with. No one during the thousand years are being martyred by satan via the beast in Revelation 13.

They have already been martyred before the thousand years even begin, therefore chronologically placing the 42 month reign of the beast prior to the thousand years, option 1) and not after the thousand years where Amils need it to fit in order for their position to work. This adds up to Premil not Amil. Premil is the only view where the 42 month reign of the beast can precede the thousand years, and also precede the 2nd coming, thus satisfying the requirements of the texts involved.

The correct chronology is----the 42 month reign of the beast---the 2nd coming---the thousand years.

And not this instead, since this contradicts Revelation 20:4 and Revelation 13----the thousand years---the 42 month reign of the beast---the 2nd coming.

The 42 month reign of the beast does not and cannot fit after the thousand years, that undeniably proven via Revelation 20:4 and this part---and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

You have indicated in the past that you used to be Premil before you switched to Amil. Did you simply ignore what Revelation 20:4 indicates? Or were you not even aware at the time as to what it indicates, in regards to the timing of the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13?

sovereigngrace · Apr 3, 2020

DavidPT said:
Your point is moot in this case. Even I don't take the book of Revelation to be in strict chronological order from chapter 1 to chapter 22. What you are not grasping here, there is clearly chronology involved concerning the following though---the 42 month reign of the beast---the thousand years---satan's little season. For example, no reasonable person would claim satan's little season precedes the thousand years. This alone proves chronology. As to the 42 month reign of the beast, it has to chronologically fit somewhere within the timeline of events.

Unless you can think of another option, I only see 3 options where the 42 month reign of the beast can fit. 1) Before the thousand years begin. 2) During the thousand years. 3) After the thousand years.

We can discard option 3) altogether since Revelation 20:4 indicates there are already martyrs by this same beast before satan is ever loosed from the pit. That only leaves us two options. Option 2) can't work either because satan has to not be in the pit when the 42 month reign of the beast is being fulfilled. And besides, the 42 month reign of the beast wouldn't be paralleling the thousand years to begin with. No one during the thousand years are being martyred by satan via the beast in Revelation 13.

They have already been martyred before the thousand years even begin, therefore chronologically placing the 42 month reign of the beast prior to the thousand years, and not after the thousand years where Amils need it to fit in order for their position to work. This adds up to Premil not Amil. Premil is the only view where the 42 month reign of the beast can precede the thousand years, and also precede the 2nd coming, thus satisfying the requirements of the texts involved.

The correct chronology is----the 42 month reign of the beast---the 2nd coming---the thousand years.

And not this instead, since this contradicts Revelation 20:4 and Revelation 13----the thousand years---the 42 month reign of the beast---the 2nd coming.

The 42 month reign of the beast does not and cannot fit after the thousand years, that undeniably proven via Revelation 20:4 and this part---and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

You have indicated in the past that you used to be Premil before you switched to Amil. Did you simply ignore what Revelation 20:4 indicates? Or were you not even aware at the time as to what it indicates, in regards to the timing of the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13?

The 42 month reign of the beast at the end and Satan's little season correlate. They are the same event.

DavidPT · Apr 3, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The 42 month reign of the beast at the end and Satan's little season correlate. They are the same event.

He who alleges must prove. So prove how the 42 month reign of the beast can be after the thousand years, when Revelation 20:4 is telling us it is already before satan is ever loosed.

sovereigngrace · Apr 3, 2020

DavidPT said:
He who alleges must prove. So prove how the 42 month reign of the beast can be after the thousand years, when Revelation 20:4 is telling us it is already before satan is ever loosed.

Because the beast has to be released from the bottomless pit at the end where he has been held since the 1st Advent. The fate of the beast are tied together. When Satan was banished to the pit, so also was the beast. When Satan is released so also is the beast. This therefore correlates with Satan's little season.

We must not forget the fact that the life-span of the beast is not restricted to the “forty and two months” (Revelation 13:4-5), just like it isn't restricted to the “one hour,” mentioned in Revelation 17:11-12, as the beast existed before John’s time, at the time of John, and after John's day. This text above again proves this and shows that the beast “is of the seven” preceding earthly empires. The beast that transcends all these rebellious kingdoms must be the more general anti-Christ spirit of this world. This is Satan’s overall iniquitous agency from which all the rest emanate. It is the source, the other wicked systems and kings are merely tributaries. Moreover, the beast wields influence throughout time and therefore this intra-Advent period over all those “whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 17:8).

The 42-month reign of the beast has to correspond with the fate of the devil. The two are inextricably tied together. The reign of the beast and Satan’s little season represent hell’s final throw before eternity. They indicate a final release of evil before the second coming. The great white throne is the one and only future coming of the Lord and his final judgment.

Adamina · Apr 3, 2020

sovereigngrace said: ↑
The 42 month reign of the beast at the end and Satan's little season correlate. They are the same event.

Possible.

DavidPT said:
He who alleges must prove. So prove how the 42 month reign of the beast can be after the thousand years, when Revelation 20:4 is telling us it is already before satan is ever loosed.

Good insight from both of you.
Some partial preterist scholars view Matt 24:6 as being the Jewish Wars which started around Aug 66AD and lasted until the fall of Jerasalem in Sept 70ad.
The final Jewish rebel stronghold of Masada was taken over by the Romans in 73AD [shown in utube vid below].....which would make the total time period about 7 years.

Matthew 24:6 “And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled;
for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [Mark 13:7 Luke 21:9]

Preterist/postmillennial view:

REVELATION’S 42-MONTH WAR

REVELATION’S 42-MONTH WAR
AD 70, Preterism, Revelation February 11, 2016 Comments: 5

Revelation must be understood preteristically. That is, we must recognize that John was primarily writing about the Jewish War which led to the September AD 70 destruction of the Jewish temple and the conclusion of biblical (Torah-based) Judaism.

Four Views on the Book of Revelation
(ed. by Marvin Pate)

Helpful presentation of four approaches to Revelation. Ken Gentry writes the chapter on the preterist approach to Revelation, which provides a 50 page survey of Revelation.
=====================
How do others view his take on Revelation?
Info about him at wiki:

Kenneth Gentry - Wikipedia

Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr. (3 May 1950) is a Reformed theologian, and an ordained minister in the Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly. He is particularly known for his support for and publication on the topics of orthodox preterism and postmillennialism in Christian eschatology, as well as for theonomy and Young Earth creationism. He holds that each of these theological distinctives are logical and theological extensions of his foundational theology, which is Calvinistic and Reformed.

"In 73 AD Masada, the impregnable mountain fortress in the Judaean desert, stood as the final holdout against the onslaught of Rome’s legions. The siege that followed would mark the final, bloody suppression of the Jewish revolt with an encounter whose awe inspiring remains can still be seen in the desert today!"

Andrewn · Apr 4, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The 42 month reign of the beast at the end and Satan's little season correlate. They are the same event.

sovereigngrace said:
Because the beast has to be released from the bottomless pit at the end where he has been held since the 1st Advent. The fate of the beast are tied together. When Satan was banished to the pit, so also was the beast. When Satan is released so also is the beast. This therefore correlates with Satan's little season.

As you know my views are Amil. And I agree that the fate of the satan and the beast empires are tied together. But I understand the 42 months of Rev 12 as taking place in the beginning of the Millennium. This is also in agreement with most scholars who see Nero Caesar as a manifestation of the Beast.

Do you agree that this a reasonable alternative view?

Davy · Apr 4, 2020

DavidPT said:
Have you ever compared Revelation 3:9 to that of the following in Isaiah 60?

Isaiah 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

Maybe it's just me, but that sounds pretty much like what is said in Revelation 3:9. Assuming it is meaning the same events, notice the context that it is stated in.

Isaiah 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

Compare that with the following.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Then compare---

Isaiah 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

the above like such----

The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light(Isaiah 60:19-20)-----And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof(Revelation 21:23)---And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light(Revelation 22:5)

and the days of thy mourning shall be ended(Isaiah 60:20)----and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying(Isaiah 65:19)-----And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain(Revelation 21:4)

Assuming I am correct to connect Isaiah 60:14 to that of Revelation 3:9, and that I am correct to connect other portions of Isaiah 60 to that of Revelation 21-22, even Amils such as SG do not deny that the NHNE are future still.

Yeah, I pretty much agree, that's about the world to come, definitely not this present world.

The end of Zechariah 14 shows some similar ideas for that world to come concerning the nations that refuse to come up to Jerusalem to worship, there being no rain on their lands...

Zech 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Same idea.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

The Amill hardliners still won't admit the context of those written Scriptures.

Davy · Apr 4, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
It is in the presence tense. He is reigning now. You try and make it future tense, but it will never say that!

I and others have presented multiple Scriptures that refute your rejection of Christ's kingship, His rule, His power and His glory. Your fight is with the Book. You explain away the rest of Scripture with your faulty opinion of Rev 20. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 forbids Premil. Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:20-23, Hebrews 2:6-11, Revelation 3:7, Philippians 2:9-11, Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15, 1 Peter 3:22, 1 Timothy 6:13-16, Revelation 17:14 which you ignore forbids Premil.

Ephesians 1:17-23: “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness (megethos or magnificence) of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”

The resurrection is constantly presented in Scripture as the moment Christ secured all power and authority over all creation, including His enemies. It is at the place of majesty that He now reigns in unchallenged power and glory.

Scripture constantly depicts the magnificence, greatness and mighty power of Christ sitting at the right hand of Majesty ruling at the place of sovereign authority upon high. He holds all heaven's power. He is King of kings. He is Lord of lords. Hebrews 1:1-3 confirms: “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty (megalosune) on high."

The word “Majesty” is interpreted from the Greek word megalosune, meaning greatness, i.e. (figuratively) divinity (often God himself). It speaks of glory, mighty power, magnificence and splendour. The phrase “being the brightness of his glory” literally reads “He is the radiance of his glory.”

Christ is no mere impotent King-in-waiting. He is not a want-to-be king. He is no ordinary powerless Prince. We see this in Matthew 28:18, where, after His resurrection, He victoriously declared, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”

This is Sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority. All heaven’s authority was deposited upon Christ through the triumph of Calvary where He triumphantly procured absolute victory over death, hell, sin, Satan and every enemy. Christ thus assumed the heavenly throne in perfect fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy and therefore reigns as Sovereign king until His last enemy is made His footstool.

Peter recognizes this in Acts 2:33, saying, “Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”

Again, in Acts 5:30-31, he teaches: “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”

He has been “exalted” to the highest place and enjoys unchallenged authority now and for all eternity. Christ exercises divine kingship at the place of ultimate omnipotence as God and as Messiah. As God, Christ holds all power and authority in heaven and on earth, reigning over all creation. But as man He reigns over all His new creation (true spiritual Israel). His deity was simply veiled in a human body during His earthly ministry.

Hebrews 8:1 also says: "We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty (megalosune) in the heavens."

This phrase is synonymous with sitting at "the right hand of the power of God" (Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62 and Luke 22:69). The “right hand” is therefore the special place of honour and power. Christ now enjoys full participation in God's glory in His lofty seat. Of course, repeated Scripture shows us that this means He carries all power. In fact, there is nothing that is not under His authority. The majesty that He possesses is real and ongoing. In a biblical sense, being at “the right hand of the Majesty” or “the right hand of the power of God” means to be the one upon whom majesty, power and authority rests and through whom it operates.

You're still dancing around the "when" condition written in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

sovereigngrace · Apr 4, 2020

Andrewn said:
As you know my views are Amil. And I agree that the fate of the satan and the beast empires are tied together. But I understand the 42 months of Rev 12 as taking place in the beginning of the Millennium. This is also in agreement with most scholars who see Nero Caesar as a manifestation of the Beast.

Do you agree that this a reasonable alternative view?

Of course it is an alternative Amil position. It would be the Preterist understanding of it. Amil scholars are split on it. Most Idealist Amils see this relating to the time before the end. I just see it as problematic, especially when you look at the different recaps, compare the language and note that all show the kingdom of darkness having a short season at the end just prior to the second coming to oppose and surround the saints of God. It looks to me as Satan's last throw. It also makes sense.

I believe we see the progressive detail of the conflict between the two kingdoms, zooming in on particular aspects of that great final conflict. Comparing each recap to each other which seem to reinforce that position.

There is only one gathering for war at the end. This is the final throw of the kingdom of darkness before it is eternally destroyed. Satan mobilizes his forces for one final fling before the return of Christ on “that great day of God Almighty.” Revelation 16:13- depicts: “three unclean spirits … come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.” This is a joint effort from these 3. They supervise the end time assault upon the righteous and righteousness. They stir up the wicked to gather together for war.

We find in the second parallel in Revelation, as the parallel concludes, in Revelation 6:12-17: "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

The third parallel, the seven trumpets, which closely mirrors the aforementioned parallel (the seven vials) in each of its distinct parallels records in Revelation 9:1-7 records: "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months."

Revelation 9:14-15 continues, “Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.”

Here the same location is seen to be the symbolic source of the demonic gathering of the wicked for the final battle. This occurs just prior to the seventh or last trumpet, which is a record of the Second Coming and the end of the world.

The fifth parallel, the seven vials, which closely mirrors the aforementioned parallel (the seven trumpets) in each of its distinct parallels records in Revelation 9:1-7 records:

Revelation 16:12-21: “And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.”

Here we see a vivid record of Satan’s great concluding ‘devilish gathering’ just prior to the one final future Coming of Christ. The seventh vial portrays an unmistakable description of the all-consummating Second Coming.

The sixth parallel

Revelation 19:11-21: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Again this is a picture of the final gathering of the wicked for destruction.

The other three parallels, not yet referred to, also strongly support this recapitulation viewpoint.

We can therefore safely assume that the battle between the wicked symbolically represented by “Gog and Magog” and the righteous “the camp of the saints” occurs in this present age, just prior to the Second Coming and the general resurrection / judgment.

The seventh parallel

Revelation 20:7-10: “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.”

sovereigngrace · Apr 4, 2020

Davy said:
You're still dancing around the "when" condition written in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

That is one way of avoiding the issue. I totally understand. The text forbids the Premil theory.

sovereigngrace · Apr 4, 2020

Davy said:
Yeah, I pretty much agree, that's about the world to come, definitely not this present world.

The end of Zechariah 14 shows some similar ideas for that world to come concerning the nations that refuse to come up to Jerusalem to worship, there being no rain on their lands...

Zech 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Same idea.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

The Amill hardliners still won't admit the context of those written Scriptures.

There is absolutely no correlation between Revelation 20 and Zachariah 14. If you believe otherwise, then could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts)?

I will not hold my breath, as no Premil I know can address this, because they are speaking about 2 different time periods.

claninja · Apr 4, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
But the major event is the 2nd coming, so that is why people say it that way. I say it too. "The millennium is the time between Christ's comings." Is it not OK to summarise the broader doctrine and omit the minor issues? For example, we all say that the inter-testament spanned the era up until Christ's 1st coming. If someone objected, "What about John the Baptist?" they would technically be correct. Yes, John's short ministry came first, but that was preliminary to the major event.

So, I think your objection about Satan's little season is an unnecessary point of order.

Let's back up a second. My position is that the Amil defines the 1,000 years as symbolic for the time between the 1st and 2nd coming. SG has been saying that is a false claim. If that is false, then what does amil define the 1,000 years as?

Now, The intertestimental period has a broad defintion: 400 years of silence between the OT and the NT. Some gospel begin the story with Christ (matthew, John), some begin with John the baptist (mark, luke). So both can be technically right.

Sometimes we need to be picky SG. Does the 70 weeks end 3.5 years after the cross or with the destruction of the temple? does the 1,000 years end with satan's little season or the 2nd coming?

A MOD from another forum defines the Amil position as symbolic for starting at Christ's ascension and ending with the return of Christ:

Why Christians Should Embrace Partial Preterism

"One particular problem is the use of term amillennialism. Amillennialism means no millennial period set between two specific events in history matching 1000 years. In the amillennial view, the 1000 years is symbolic and starts at the Ascension of Christ and ends with the physical return of Christ at the Second coming. "

The Millennial Kingdom by John Walvoord in regards to Amillinnialsim:

"The present age is between the first and second comings is the fulfillment of the millennium. Its adherents are divided on whether the millennium is being fulfilled now on earth (Augustine) or whether it is being fulfilled by the saints in heaven (Kliefoth)".

From the Handbook of Evangelical Theology by Robert Lightner quoting from J.G. Vos:

"Amillennialism teaches that there will be a parallel and contemporaneous development of good and evil-God's kingdom and satan's kingdom-in this world, which will continue until the second coming."

Even theopedia defines it the same way:

Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism) is the view in Christian eschatology which states that Christ is presently reigning through the Church, and that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20:1-6 is a metaphorical reference to the present church age which will culminate in Christ's return"

Why Christians Should Embrace Partial Preterism

the link you provided in post 15 of another forum, diagrams the amil position. In this diagram the millennium is symbolic for the church age, which begins at the cross and ends at the 2nd coming. The diagram has "satan's littles season" at the end of the symbolic millennium/church age, NOT after it.

https://www.christianforums.com/dat...7/310297_f35f57c294d6150377c54064f0881f64.svg

If you believe the 1,000 years ends right before satan's little season, then what do you believe the 1,000 years is representative of?

A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

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