Three Angels Message Video For Our Time

Gary K

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If you're advocating anti-trinitarianism, we have nothing to discuss here.
So, just asking you for the scriptural basis for your belief that Christ's primary qualification for being our Redeemer is His attribute of being eternal is somehow questionable behavior? And is somehow anti-trinity? How so? And why would you think I am advocating that with everything I have posted on the personhood of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that the Son of God existed an eternity before His incarnation as a human being?
 
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Jesse Johnson

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Where is your evidence for your belief?
Wow. I just realized that the evidence you're asking for is actually in the quote you just provided:

The only way in which the fallen race could be restored was through the gift of His Son, equal with himself, possessing the attributes of God. Though so highly exalted, Christ consented to assume human nature, that He might work in behalf of man and reconcile to God His disloyal subject.—The Review and Herald, November 8, 1892, p. 690.
 
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Gary K

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Wow. I just realized that the evidence you're asking for is actually in the quote you just provided:

The only way in which the fallen race could be restored was through the gift of His Son, equal with himself, possessing the attributes of God. Though so highly exalted, Christ consented to assume human nature, that He might work in behalf of man and reconcile to God His disloyal subject.—The Review and Herald, November 8, 1892, p. 690.

Are you saying my quote is evidence that asking you for scriptural support for your position is somehow questionable behavior?

You have lost me with your reply.

That quote is saying that Jesus' human nature and His divine nature are equally important for Jesus to be qualified to redeem us. He had to have both natures to be our kinsman-redeemer. Neither nature alone could qualify Jesus to be our Redeemer. Thus being eternal alone couldn't qualify Him as our redeemer. His dual nature was His most important qualification. He had to be the eternal God and a human being at the same time to redeem us. That is not an anti-triune position. I say anti-Triune position because a lot of people think if a person uses the word trinity they are referring to the Catholic position on the three members of the Godhead. Ellen White didn't teach that position and neither does the Bible.

I'm also bewildered by the fact that just asking you to support your beliefs from scripture is an insult to you. I cannot understand that in the least. Why? Because to me the only reason to hold a specific belief is because scripture teaches it.
 
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Jesse Johnson

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If her writings are inspired, then why can't they be used as scripture?
I'm sorry no one answered your question. The canon of Scripture is closed, and there have been individuals besides the Bible writers who have had the gift of prophecy. Enoch, for example. (Jude 1:14)
 
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Jesse Johnson

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Are you saying my quote is evidence that asking you for scriptural support for your position is somehow questionable behavior?
No. You assume entirely too much.
You have lost me with your reply.
You might be over-analyzing just a bit.
That quote is saying that Jesus' human nature and His divine nature are equally important for Jesus to be qualified to redeem us. He had to have both natures to be our kinsman-redeemer. Neither nature alone could qualify Jesus to be our Redeemer. Thus being eternal alone couldn't qualify Him as our redeemer. His dual nature was His most important qualification. He had to be the eternal God and a human being at the same time to redeem us. That is not an anti-triune position. I say anti-Triune position because a lot of people think if a person uses the word trinity they are referring to the Catholic position on the three members of the Godhead. Ellen White didn't teach that position and neither does the Bible.
I agree, for the most part. What would you consider the Catholic position to be, exactly, if I may ask? You can PM me if you don't want to derail the thread. Although, the entire thing is in violation of forum rules, basically.
I'm also bewildered by the fact that just asking you to support your beliefs from scripture is an insult to you. I cannot understand that in the least.
Insofar as I am aware, you haven't insulted me at all. I made a hasty judgment that you were siding with the OP, because of your challenge. I apologize. Sincerely. Forgive me?
...the only reason to hold a specific belief is because scripture teaches it.
Can you give a simple presentation of the pre-advent judgment entirely from Scripture? (Before you assume that I don't believe in the Sanctuary doctrine: I do, and I can.)
_________________________________________
I don't know if it will make any difference, but I should have been more specific in my remark.

"Christ's primary qualification to redeem mankind is that He possesses human life unborrowed."

Many people have become enamored with the "kinsman-redeemer" motif because of Elizabeth Talbot's teaching ministry. I tend to be wary of things that are presented as epiphany-based testimonies. Perhaps you got the idea somewhere else or found it on your own. I enjoyed her ministry very much, myself until I witnessed her disgraceful conduct at the 2015 GC Session. I hope this eases your bewilderment. I would caution you to resist the temptation to be overly defensive. I used to be that way and it was deleterious to my walk with the Lord. If you find this warning offensive, you might want to think about that.
 
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Religiot

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I'm sorry no one answered your question. The canon of Scripture is closed, and there have been individuals besides the Bible writers who have had the gift of prophecy. Enoch, for example. (Jude 1:14)
Who decided the canon? and why is Enoch not part of it?
 
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Jesse Johnson

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Who decided the canon?
Literally, God did. Technically, some scholars who lived around 150 AD. If I remember correctly.
and why is Enoch not part of it?
His book, if he wrote one, would likely have been destroyed in the flood. Many scholars believe there were virtually no books written before the flood because tradition was handed down orally and those people had powers of memory beyond what we could probably imagine.
 
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reddogs

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Wow. I just realized that the evidence you're asking for is actually in the quote you just provided:

The only way in which the fallen race could be restored was through the gift of His Son, equal with himself, possessing the attributes of God. Though so highly exalted, Christ consented to assume human nature, that He might work in behalf of man and reconcile to God His disloyal subject.—The Review and Herald, November 8, 1892, p. 690.
Scripture tells us...
John 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
 
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Gary K

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No. You assume entirely too much.

You might be over-analyzing just a bit.

I agree, for the most part. What would you consider the Catholic position to be, exactly, if I may ask? You can PM me if you don't want to derail the thread. Although, the entire thing is in violation of forum rules, basically.

Insofar as I am aware, you haven't insulted me at all. I made a hasty judgment that you were siding with the OP, because of your challenge. I apologize. Sincerely. Forgive me?

Can you give a simple presentation of the pre-advent judgment entirely from Scripture? (Before you assume that I don't believe in the Sanctuary doctrine: I do, and I can.)
_________________________________________
I don't know if it will make any difference, but I should have been more specific in my remark.

"Christ's primary qualification to redeem mankind is that He possesses human life unborrowed."

Many people have become enamored with the "kinsman-redeemer" motif because of Elizabeth Talbot's teaching ministry. I tend to be wary of things that are presented as epiphany-based testimonies. Perhaps you got the idea somewhere else or found it on your own. I enjoyed her ministry very much, myself until I witnessed her disgraceful conduct at the 2015 GC Session. I hope this eases your bewilderment. I would caution you to resist the temptation to be overly defensive. I used to be that way and it was deleterious to my walk with the Lord. If you find this warning offensive, you might want to think about that.

How am I assuming too much when I'm asking you questions trying to understand your meaning? I'm not assuming anything.

I have asked you multiple questions and your post said that the quote answered the question I asked. Which question? You're assuming that I know which of the several questions I asked that your post referred to. I do not know. I cannot read your mind.

Yeah, I can explain the pre-advent judgment, but why? I believe in the investigative judgment. Your assumptions are baseless. I believe in the historic Adventist doctrines.

Who is Elizabeth Taylor? I've never heard of her let alone read anything she's written. My references to the kinsman-redeemer came from my own study from the scriptures and Ellen White's writings that took me a few hundred hours to accomplish, and arose out of my opposition to the errors of the "in Christ" motif. I have a few hundred quotes from Ellen White on her support for the kinsman-redeemer concept. Here's just a few:

Of Christ’s relation to His people, there is a beautiful illustration in the laws given to Israel. When through poverty a Hebrew had been forced to part with his patrimony, and to sell himself as a bond servant, the duty of redeeming him and his inheritance fell to the one who was nearest of kin. See Leviticus 25:25, 47-49; Ruth 2:20. So the work of redeeming us and our inheritance, lost through sin, fell upon Him who is “near of kin” unto us. It was to redeem us that He became our kinsman. Closer than father, mother, brother, friend, or lover is the Lord our Saviour. “Fear not,” He says, “for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art Mine.” “Since thou wast precious in My sight, thou hast been honorable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.” Isaiah 43:1, 4. Desire of Ages p. 327

Through type and promise God “preached before the gospel unto Abraham.” Galatians 3:8. And the patriarch’s faith was fixed upon the Redeemer to come. Said Christ to the Jews. “Your father Abraham rejoiced that he should see My day; and he saw it, and was glad.” John 8:56, R.V., margin. The ram offered in the place of Isaac represented the Son of God, who was to be sacrificed in our stead. When man was doomed to death by transgression of the law of God, the Father, looking upon his Son, said to the sinner, “Live: I have found a ransom.” Patriarchs and Prophets p. 154

As the sin bearer, and priest and representative of man before God, He [Christ] entered into the life of humanity, bearing our flesh and blood. The life is in the living, vital current of blood, which blood was given for the life of the world. Christ made a full atonement, giving His life as a ransom for us.
He was born without a taint of sin, but came into the world in like manner as the human family. He did not have a mere semblance of a body, but He took human nature, participating in the life of humanity. According to the law Christ Himself gave, the forfeited inheritance was ransomed by the nearest of kin. Jesus Christ laid off His royal robe, His kingly crown, and clothed His divinity with humanity, in order to become a substitute and surety for humanity, that dying in humanity He might by His death destroy him who had the power of death. He could not have done this as God, but by coming as man Christ could die. By death He overcame death. The death of Christ bore to the death him who had the power of death, and opened the gates of the tomb for all who receive Him as their personal Saviour.—Letter 97, 1898.

Those quotes are only 3 of hundreds where Ellen White wove the concept of ga'al throughout her writings on the plan of salvation. Notice in the last quote that she says Christ, as God, could not have paid our ransom. He had to become a human to pay the ransom because only as man could He die. Thus, being man and being God were co-equal necessities in the plan of salvation. One was not more important than the other. In terms of logic if one or the other condition did not exist in the person of Jesus He could not be our redeemer. That makes both primary attributes for Jesus to be our redeemer.

The scriptural support for this concept is as solid as Ellen White's. Moses held this concept as integral to the plan of salvation, and the NT writers had this concept at the foundation of their understanding of the mission of Christ. If memory serves me correctly, I have more than 200 texts from both OT and NT that support this concept fully.

Here's a couple of examples from the NT:
Luke 24: 21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

The Greek word translated as redeemed means "to ransom". In other words, those two disappointed disciples saw Jesus as their ransom.

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

The Greek word translated as redeemed means purchased. The concept of the plan of salvation being a ransom paid by Jesus to redeem us runs from Genesis to Revelation.

All of this scriptural and SOP support cannot be taken lightly. I don't know how whoever you named presented this subject, but this concept is taught by both the Bible and the SOP as an integral part of the plan of salvation. The concept of ga'al cannot be removed from it without destroying it.

As to forgiveness, I wasn't angry with you in the first place. I was just curious as to where your support for your belief came from. I don't see any reason for forgiveness as I never took offense, and I don't see that you did anything wrong other than misunderstand where I was coming from. This format is a very difficult way to communicate and misunderstandings happen all the time. But, be that as it may, if you feel you need forgiveness, you got it.
 
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Jesse Johnson

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Scripture tells us...
John 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
I wouldn't dispute that at all, so I'm not sure why you're directing it at me but, Hi, anyway.
 
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Jesse Johnson

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How am I assuming too much when I'm asking you questions trying to understand your meaning? I'm not assuming anything.

I have asked you multiple questions and your post said that the quote answered the question I asked. Which question? You're assuming that I know which of the several questions I asked that your post referred to. I do not know. I cannot read your mind.

Yeah, I can explain the pre-advent judgment, but why? I believe in the investigative judgment. Your assumptions are baseless. I believe in the historic Adventist doctrines.

Who is Elizabeth Taylor? I've never heard of her let alone read anything she's written. My references to the kinsman-redeemer came from my own study from the scriptures and Ellen White's writings that took me a few hundred hours to accomplish, and arose out of my opposition to the errors of the "in Christ" motif. I have a few hundred quotes from Ellen White on her support for the kinsman-redeemer concept. Here's just a few:



Those quotes are only 3 of hundreds where Ellen White wove the concept of ga'al throughout her writings on the plan of salvation. Notice in the last quote that she says Christ, as God, could not have paid our ransom. He had to become a human to pay the ransom because only as man could He die. Thus, being man and being God were co-equal necessities in the plan of salvation. One was not more important than the other. In terms of logic if one or the other condition did not exist in the person of Jesus He could not be our redeemer. That makes both primary attributes for Jesus to be our redeemer.

The scriptural support for this concept is as solid as Ellen White's. Moses held this concept as integral to the plan of salvation, and the NT writers had this concept at the foundation of their understanding of the mission of Christ. If memory serves me correctly, I have more than 200 texts from both OT and NT that support this concept fully.

Here's a couple of examples from the NT:

The Greek word translated as redeemed means "to ransom". In other words, those two disappointed disciples saw Jesus as their ransom.



The Greek word translated as redeemed means purchased. The concept of the plan of salvation being a ransom paid by Jesus to redeem us runs from Genesis to Revelation.

All of this scriptural and SOP support cannot be taken lightly. I don't know how whoever you named presented this subject, but this concept is taught by both the Bible and the SOP as an integral part of the plan of salvation. The concept of ga'al cannot be removed from it without destroying it.

As to forgiveness, I wasn't angry with you in the first place. I was just curious as to where your support for your belief came from. I don't see any reason for forgiveness as I never took offense, and I don't see that you did anything wrong other than misunderstand where I was coming from. This format is a very difficult way to communicate and misunderstandings happen all the time. But, be that as it may, if you feel you need forgiveness, you got it.
Yeah, we don't seem to be communicating on any level so:
Sorry I bothered you again.
 
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Religiot

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Both. God works through people.
Brother, I know God works through people, and so does Satan; thus we are commanded to distinguish between true prophets, and false prophets...

How do you know that the scholars you are referring to are true?
 
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Jesse Johnson

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How do you know that the scholars you are referring to are true?
I don't. But it's the best answer I have to give, and I believe God has preserved His word for His children. That's not rocket science. What's your point? Why beat around the bush?
 
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Religiot

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I don't. But it's the best answer I have to give, and I believe God has preserved His word for His children. That's not rocket science. What's your point? Why beat around the bush?
Not beating around anything... Just asking you direct questions...

Rocket science? No, brother, not at all, rocket science is a walk in the park; theology, however, is a belly-crawl through a war zone.

Satan couldn't care less about any rocket science, but he is very much involved in what men believe about what God has already said.

God's word cannot be preserved in the pages of books, but solely in the hearts of His children.

Those who follow Christ have His word abiding in their hearts, and are able to discern between what is true, and what is false, despite what any scholar might say: for His children are taught by His Spirit, and they do not regard the doctrines of men.
 
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Jesse Johnson

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God's word cannot be preserved in the pages of books, but solely in the hearts of His children.

Those who follow Christ have His word abiding in their hearts, and are able to discern between what is true, and what is false, despite what any scholar might say: for His children are taught by His Spirit, and they do not regard the doctrines of men.
These are abstract statements, and abstract statements tend to mislead people.

You seem to be hinting or suggesting that I have something to learn from what you've said here. Why not just spit it out? If I'm mistaken, what exactly is the purpose of your addressing me specifically with these concerns? Let's communicate a little. Whaddya say?
 
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Religiot

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These are abstract statements, and abstract statements tend to mislead people.

You seem to be hinting or suggesting that I have something to learn from what you've said here. Why not just spit it out? If I'm mistaken, what exactly is the purpose of your addressing me specifically with these concerns? Let's communicate a little. Whaddya say?
Religion is purely abstract...

I've simply just been responding to your posts...

Brother, I've not suggested anything, but if my simple and direct questions, are causing you to feel as if you've got something to learn, then it is not from me, but from the Spirit of Prophecy, Who is the Spirit of Christ, and the only Teacher to the Children of God.

Feel free, brother, to take liberty in asking me whatever you feel, and I will be more than happy to answer: I'm at your service.
 
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