Mark of the beast, Anti-Christ and False Prophet Discussion.

Douggg

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Also remember the statue in Daniel was literally standing over babylon and the on coming kingdoms. Nebachadnezzer wanted to know what kingdoms would follow his one not in some far off land. Also the Bible is concentrated mainly about the middle East as it effects Israel.
Hi Nancy,

What Nebuchadnezzar wanted to know what was his dream that was so disturbing it woke him from his sleep (Daniel 2:1).

He actually forgot what it was.(Daniel 2:5, Daniel 2:8).

Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar what the dream was and the interpretation of it.

So Nebuchadnezzar had no preconceived motive to know what kingdoms would follow his. Because he could not even remember the dream to start with.

There are just four kingdoms in the dream. With the fourth kingdom, having weak parts and strong parts in the end times. The ten toes as the ten kings of the Daniel 7 fourth kingdom.
How can the Roman empire, (aka,the EU) be the 6th,7th and 8th kingdoms?
I am not sure of where you are getting 6th, 7th, 8th kingdoms?

The 7 heads in Revelation 17:10 are 7 kings. Of the fourth kingdom, the Roman kingdom.
 
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Davy

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This is interesting, do you have any scripture that relates to this please?

BEWARE: Some here espouse a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory, which first began to be preached in a certain church in 1830's Great Britain by Edward Irving, and then by John Nelson Darby. Everything written in God's Word they read is influenced by that pre-trib rapture theory which is not Biblical.
 
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Douggg

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BEWARE: Some here espouse a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory, which first began to be preached in a certain church in 1830's Great Britain by Edward Irving, and then by John Nelson Darby. Everything written in God's Word they read is influenced by that pre-trib rapture theory which is not Biblical.
I personally espouse the Anytime Rapture view - which could happen pre-trib (pre-70th week) or it may not.
 
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Davy

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I personally espouse the Anytime Rapture view - which could happen pre-trib (pre-70th week) or it may not.

I know you do Douggg. And obviously you appear proud of your chart you made. But the reality is that your chart has some inserted events that are not Biblical.

There are only TWO comings of Christ written of in all of God's Word. Even Zechariah 9:9-10 shows both advents of Christ, His 1st coming to die on the cross, and His 2nd coming to subdue all His enemies.

The 1 Cor.15 "last trump" is the same "trump of God" in 1 Thess.4. Both point to the time of the resurrection, which is the LAST DAY of this present world. So the time Scripture shows for Christ's coming and gathering of His Church is on that last day, and that means at the end of the tribulation He forewarned.
 
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Nancy2

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Hello douggg,
The beast with 7 heads St John states "Five have fallen, one is (6th head), one is yet to come (7th head) and that head will be slain and go into the abyss, then revives and becomes the 8th which is also of the 7th. So it still has 7 heads because the 7th will be revived. So again how can the Roman empire be the 6, 7 and a revived empire? The empire after Rome was the Islamic one so that head was slain (in 1924 or thereabouts the Ottoman Empire was finished) but it will revive.
Take care
Nancy2
 
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ewq1938

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and that head will be slain and go into the abyss, then revives

It says wounded and then healed not the concept of being killed and resurrecting. It also does not happen to the 7th and 8th kings of Revelation 17. It happens to one of the heads/mountains of the Revelation 13 beast. Those heads are locations not people just as the 7 hills of Rome were locations.
 
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Douggg

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The beast with 7 heads St John states "Five have fallen, one is (6th head), one is yet to come (7th head) and that head will be slain and go into the abyss, then revives and becomes the 8th which is also of the 7th.
Nancy, here is the text...

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Do you agree that it is seven kings that the seven heads represent?

So again how can the Roman empire be the 6, 7 and a revived empire?

I have never stated roman empire.... "revived". It is not the kingdom (empire) revived in Revelation 13, but king 7.

The people who use the roman empire "revived" terminology come out of a certain camp which view the seven kings as not kings, but kingdoms. Which is not what the text says in Revelation 17:10.

It is seven "kings" in the text.

There are no "6th", "7th" kingdoms inferred in the text, by the number of heads.
 
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Douggg

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I know you do Douggg. And obviously you appear proud of your chart you made. But the reality is that your chart has some inserted events that are not Biblical.

There are only TWO comings of Christ written of in all of God's Word. Even Zechariah 9:9-10 shows both advents of Christ, His 1st coming to die on the cross, and His 2nd coming to subdue all His enemies.

The 1 Cor.15 "last trump" is the same "trump of God" in 1 Thess.4. Both point to the time of the resurrection, which is the LAST DAY of this present world. So the time Scripture shows for Christ's coming and gathering of His Church is on that last day, and that means at the end of the tribulation He forewarned.
okay, you have stated your rationale for the timing of the rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians4:15-18. There are probably a million posts in this forum debating the different views on the timing. And nobody has changed their minds so far. For that reason, I don't want to get into it in this thread, and it take over the thread.
 
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dougangel

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did you delete that ?
Anyway
Possible end time beast or kingdoms can be:
Your One, The Revised Roman empire
Revised papal Rome
Muslim's
Jerusalem Israel. Revised Temple worship
Europe and there satellite countries eg USA
Mediterranean Countries surrounding Israel named in Psalms
 
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dougangel

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Do you agree that it is seven kings that the seven heads represent?
No
Rev 17
It's says in9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
IF you read all of it there are eight
 
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Douggg

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did you delete that ?
Yes, because upon my further review, you hadn't said anything in your post to back up your statement - for me to respond to. So I deleted my post contents.

Anyway
Possible end time beast or kingdoms can be:
Your One, The Revised Roman empire
I have never said revived roman empire. People who use that jargon, have a completely different interpretation regarding the heads in Revelation 17:10, than being kings, which kings is what is in the text.

Revised papal Rome

Clarify what you mean. Assuming you are referring to the reform era position on the Papacy/Pope being the beast and antichrist - it is not possible because the pope(s) cannot be nor become "the" antichrist because they are not qualified. The person has to be a Jew and his religion Judaism - in order to be anointed the King of Israel, embraced by the Jews - in order to be the antichrist.

Eliminated. Not plausible.


The Muslim's don't have the military capability to force it's will on the rest of the world - in order to be the beast (kingdom). And what military they do have will be destroyed in the Gog/Magog event before the seven years begin.

Eliminated. Not plausible.

Jerusalem Israel. Revised Temple worship

That doesn't even make sense to what you mean in regards to the beast in Revelation. So I can't comment, until you put together complete thoughts.

Europe and there satellite countries eg USA
Again, you are not making a coherent statement on what you mean in regards to the beast in Revelation. So I can't comment.

Mediterranean Countries surrounding Israel named in Psalms
Again, you are not specific about what you mean. People cannot read your mind, nor put together your thoughts for you.

Explain how those countries are the beast in Revelation.

I am not going assemble your posts and make your arguments for you...on sketchy input from your side.
 
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Douggg

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11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
IF you read all of it there are eight
My question to Nancy was aimed at the heads in verse 10 being kings and not kingdoms.

I was not implying that the beast as king 8 is not of the 7 kings. King 8, the beast, is of the seven kings, just as the text indicates.

Regardless of there being 8 kings - there are still only 7 heads on the beast.
 
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dougangel

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Yes, because upon my further review, you hadn't said anything in your post to back up your statement - for me to respond to. So I deleted my post contents.

I said there are other people possible interpretations of the 7th kingdom to come. They are, other peoples possible interpretations I don't necessary agree with them. I haven't got the time into detail but you asked me for to back up the fact that I said there are other interpretations. It's no surprise you don't agree with them.
 
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dougangel

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My question to Nancy was aimed at the heads in verse 10 being kings and not kingdoms.

I was not implying that the beast as king 8 is not of the 7 kings. King 8, the beast, is of the seven kings, just as the text indicates.

Regardless of there being 8 kings - there are still only 7 heads on the beast.

Hello douggg,
The beast with 7 heads St John states "Five have fallen, one is (6th head), one is yet to come (7th head) and that head will be slain and go into the abyss, then revives and becomes the 8th which is also of the 7th.
I was just pointing out there was nothing wrong with what Nancy said.

Rev 17
11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition

OF the seven world powers he was and is not. He is revised from one of the seven world powers
 
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Douggg

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I said there are other people possible interpretations of the 7th kingdom to come. They are, other peoples possible interpretations I don't necessary agree with them. I haven't got the time into detail but you asked me for to back up the fact that I said there are other interpretations. It's no surprise you don't agree with them.
There is no 7th kingdom. It is 7 kings, not kingdoms.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

___________________________________________________

you had written not just other interpretations - but other more plausible interpretations than my own. But you have yet to produce a more plausible explanation.
 
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Douggg

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Rev 17
11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition

OF the seven world powers he was and is not. He is revised from one of the seven world powers
"was and is not" refers to the beast having been once alive, but has died and is in the bottomless pit in Revelation 17:8a.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

btw, you need to edit your post. it is not "revised", but "revived".

__________________________________________________
There is not 7 "world powers" indicated in Revelation 17:10. It is 7 "kings".

__________________________________________________

What was the first beast mentioned in the bible associated with evil ? The first lie?
 
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dougangel

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There is no 7th kingdom. It is 7 kings, not kingdoms.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

___________________________________________________

you had written not just other interpretations - but other more plausible interpretations than my own. But you have yet to produce a more plausible explanation.
because you deleted that I went on the posts carrying on. I didn't know exactly what I said.If I spent the time. There are some there that are quite plausible. Despite you dismissing them.
Kings have to have kingdoms. LOL In this context they have kingdoms
I really do interpret Kings, beast, horns, in prophecy as kingdom powers when the context demands that.
What is your interpretation of who the kings are then ?
 
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Douggg

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because you deleted that I went on the posts carrying on. I didn't know exactly what I said.If I spent the time. There are some there that are quite plausible. Despite you dismissing them.
I didn't delete your post. I deleted the contents of my own (post #82).

Your post still exists... post #80. Here is what you wrote.

Just want to point out that your interpretation of Revelation scriptures are very controversial here and there are few different interpretations that are more plausible
______________________________
But you haven't demonstrated any - more plausible interpretations to mine. I presented a series of 5 detailed posts of my interpretation in my posts 73,74,75, 76, 77.

But in your post #90, you just give little sketchy snippets, not amounting to anything, of why those would be more plausible interpretations.

Kings have to have kingdoms. LOL In this context they have kingdoms
No, that is not what is written. The seven kings in Revelation 17:10 are sequential kings. It is not saying of 7 different kingdoms.

The seven (related) sequential kings are of the same kingdom. The roman kingdom, the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7.

In similitude to the 45 sequential presidents of the United States.

I really do interpret Kings, beast, horns, in prophecy as kingdom powers when the context demands that.

No, the context of Revelation 17:10 doesn't demand 7 kingdoms.

That is someone that you and others are changing to the text and building the rest of your interpretation on.

What is your interpretation of who the kings are then ?

I wrote who the kings are in my posts to Newbeliever123 in my posts 73, 74, 75, 76, 77.

But here it is again (from post 74)...

In Revelation 17:10 there are 7 kings related to each other. Five fallen, one is, and one yet to come (of John's day). By research those kings are of what is called the Julio-Claudian family - i.e the Caesars.

The five fallen were Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius. The one is, Nero. The one yet to come, king 7, the little horn person.
 
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