I am stuck thinking I need to prove faith to Evolutionists, when the Bible says "they're deluded"

Gottservant · Mar 28, 2020

I think what I am going to do, is refuse "Evolution".

I mean what I am going to say, is "give Evolution, to those that need it!"

I mean if Evolution is only for those that survive, its not worth it compared to just surviving anyway!!

It's not hypocritical: Jesus said "don't assume you're different" and "what good is it if you are just like other sinners?"

If those that have Evolution, need to me to change: I can do that.

Gottservant · Apr 3, 2020

I have hit upon a scientific understanding of "Evolution".

1. Evolution is a response to selection pressure.

2. There are more selection pressures than there can be adaptations, initially.

3. Evolution will adapt most, the selection pressure that presents "most".

I don't know: what do you think? Is it better to believe that certain pressure will work and certain pressure will not OR that all pressure will eventually work the same, given entropy? Basically you could believe both, within a given time frame??

It's basically the bell curve of adaptation.

Gottservant · Apr 6, 2020

I came up with a question that sheds light on the whole Evolutionary enterprise?

How many times should I attempt to create an Evolution, before I give up?

In proverbs (24:16) it says the righteous man falls seven times, and still gets back up.

Gottservant · Apr 7, 2020

I started to think "maybe there's no difference whether you believe in Evolution or not", like that you could posit 'falsehood' intermittently and it would be as good as fully mutated-fully adapted "Evolution" - because it would leech off design the advantage of being designed, without adapting to it.

Do you see what I am saying? I am saying if all Evolution does is come and go, there will be nothing in it, even for the Devil - personally I think the Devil will want to avoid this, and with a little direction he can, so why not just use the kung-fu block of Creation when it suits and make a life out of what Evolution cannot, even when false.

Writing this, I realize that it is a little cheap to just keep falsehood in the suitcase for when an IOU is needed - but God is not giving us something that we can take to the bank, is He? I mean that, is He?? In the end, Evolution will go down in History as a distraction, that never had cellular tenure - you just can make a body of cells do, what a single cell can do temporarily!

In the end Evolution, going the other way, is going to be nothing but old theory - and we will have to search for a way to advance the scriptures of Jesus, regardless: scriptures which will not be regarded "as old" by the way. I mean Scripture just cannot lose - if anything, it will become "older scripture"... these words do not pass away, not when they are Jesus'.

Peace.

Gottservant · Apr 7, 2020

I just don't get why you can't be "good at" Evolution.

It's like the elephant in the room, but no one is questioning the building being on fire... because we like the idea of roast elephant too much?

The balance of change, rests with the faithful - mock faith destroys survival??

Paul James · Apr 15, 2020

Gottservant said:
Hi there,

So you know that verse that says "God will give them over to a strong delusion" (paraphrase)? Well, I think I am getting to be at cross purposes with God, trying to do what He has made next to impossible.

The disciples were put out, saying "if it is that hard for the rich to be saved, how can any of us be saved?"

Jesus said "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible"

The point for me is that if someone is partially saved, it is better (not to argue, not to contest, not to repine) to refigure - in other words, actually stop expecting people will look to Jesus.

This is hard. I factor Jesus into everything I do, by faith; to just refigure - for example to take the Holy Spirit as my example - means forcing my faith to take a back seat. I'm not convinced this is going to save anyone, but I suppose in principle it is what Jesus found Himself having to do, when He was too weak to carry His Cross, for example. What is hard for me, is that I am not yet at the point where I can't carry my cross: I can talk, I can reason, I can justify - none of these things are not common to Man (but I suppose that is the point, they are common, not holy).

The thing is I just can't bring myself to believe, I will get to Heaven and God will say "Evolution was only partially relevant over time, the rest was Jesus" - I mean that is just not how God works. We've been through a world war over this, right? The idea that man completes himself, is a disaster - it makes you a friend of the Devil, without the meaning to uphold the eventuation of the Spirit. I think that is really the point: I am expecting to be equal with God as regards "Evolution", but I need first to yield to the Holy Spirit.

This is what Jesus did in His time, that is how He came to realize He had a cross, He yielded to the Holy Spirit. I think the thing is that if you successively submit to the Holy Spirit, the way an Evolutionist would begin to, you actually get much more than a cross: you get the entire faith of the entire Church, as regards the rapture. Maybe that is too hard to take on at once, I don't know, but it feels like the only thing that makes sense at this point. If we all consistently take on the Holy Spirit as a body, Evolution ceases to entangle even a little.

The Devil then, needs to take a lead from us, we need to be using our faith in order to make the way ahead for him - not that we give place to the Devil, but that we make a way of escape for him, that he not turn on us and bite us. If we did that collectively, people would cease to need a defence in Evolution, at the expectation that denial by it would provide them with a way of escape. Of course, then refiguring Jesus would be easy and light, but with a tinge of sadness, that men in the end could not find peace with Jesus without killing His Spirit in the process. I think that is a crisis that is still coming - despite all I have said.

But God has hope and we should rest in Him.

It is impossible by normal logic to convince atheists to accept the historical record of the Bible, not because they don't understand the issues, but that because they are rebelling against God, they will not consider it, because they don't want to. Therefore it is not a matter of giving them intellectual insight, because atheism is an act of the will and it won't matter what evidence you produce to the contrary, they will adamantly stick to their atheism.

I see on these threads that Bible-believing Christians have tried to reason with atheists at great length but have never got anywhere, after being sucked into endless debates back and forth.

I don't really know the answer outside of a sovereign work of God to open their eyes to the truth and to change their wills to want to choose to believe the Bible as it is written.

So I don't bother arguing with them. I just state what I believe and they can take it or leave it.

Gottservant · May 18, 2020

Something I have thought of doing recently, is to present the problem of death - in an ongoing sense - to proponents of Evolution: like "how does Evolution help you cope, with the fact that people you know are going to die?"

It seems like a great idea, but experience tells me it is largely futile - given that Evolutionists just don't care what happens after you die: you are no longer thought to be influencing the gene pool and therefore except for weak willed creatures who are afraid to forget you dying, you are basically unreachable, with the message of Evolution. You get half-baked attempts to communicate the fact that you are dead and no culmination in being something beyond death, because Evolution just doesn't understand being brought to life as a gift of grace.

Like working for Evolution, is a debt every creature spends life trying to pay.

Ridiculous, right?

At some point, it has to hurt, that they are not "allowing" anything to live, but I doubt it will ever dawn on them that Evolution is to blame, it would take a genius to be able to work out how to get that across. God send the genius, but when it says they are given a delusion, I think it really means it: God is not going to give a hall pass to people who don't respect property at all. I will be in Heaven, laughing, but they will not hear it: all they will hear is "do this, do that" and no reason for it. That hurts me, to have to say that its a lost cause, but I really think doom is the order of the day - when they see what happens to a faith that does everything to save those around it, they will all but throw theory in general, in the bin. It just won't make sense to believe something that promises so much, but at the expense of treating people credibly - like that you actually see, that someone besides you, could care what is going to happen to you.

JackRT · May 18, 2020

Gottservant said:
Something I have thought of doing recently, is to present the problem of death - in an ongoing sense - to proponents of Evolution: like "how does Evolution help you cope, with the fact that people you know are going to die?"

It seems like a great idea, but experience tells me it is largely futile - given that Evolutionists just don't care what happens after you die: you are no longer thought to be influencing the gene pool and therefore except for weak willed creatures who are afraid to forget you dying, you are basically unreachable, with the message of Evolution. You get half-baked attempts to communicate the fact that you are dead and no culmination in being something beyond death, because Evolution just doesn't understand being brought to life as a gift of grace.

Like working for Evolution, is a debt every creature spends life trying to pay.

Ridiculous, right?

At some point, it has to hurt, that they are not "allowing" anything to live, but I doubt it will ever dawn on them that Evolution is to blame, it would take a genius to be able to work out how to get that across. God send the genius, but when it says they are given a delusion, I think it really means it: God is not going to give a hall pass to people who don't respect property at all. I will be in Heaven, laughing, but they will not hear it: all they will hear is "do this, do that" and no reason for it. That hurts me, to have to say that its a lost cause, but I really think doom is the order of the day - when they see what happens to a faith that does everything to save those around it, they will all but throw theory in general, in the bin. It just won't make sense to believe something that promises so much, but at the expense of treating people credibly - like that you actually see, that someone besides you, could care what is going to happen to you.

Marcus Aurelius wrote --- Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.

But having said that, The Theory of Evolution is not a religion nor are scientists in general and evolutionists in particular universally atheistic. A great many Christians have no problem either scientifically or philosophically with the ToE.

hedrick · May 18, 2020

Gottservant said:
Something I have thought of doing recently, is to present the problem of death - in an ongoing sense - to proponents of Evolution: like "how does Evolution help you cope, with the fact that people you know are going to die?"

You’re still thinking that evolution is something people adopt to accomplish something. Generally people believe it happened because all the evidence says it actually did. Many of us are committed to starting with truth and then looking at how we should live. We don’t start by looking at what would be most comfortable or what would fit best with our religion.

nolidad · May 18, 2020

Gottservant said:
Something I have thought of doing recently, is to present the problem of death - in an ongoing sense - to proponents of Evolution: like "how does Evolution help you cope, with the fact that people you know are going to die?"

It seems like a great idea, but experience tells me it is largely futile - given that Evolutionists just don't care what happens after you die: you are no longer thought to be influencing the gene pool and therefore except for weak willed creatures who are afraid to forget you dying, you are basically unreachable, with the message of Evolution. You get half-baked attempts to communicate the fact that you are dead and no culmination in being something beyond death, because Evolution just doesn't understand being brought to life as a gift of grace.

Like working for Evolution, is a debt every creature spends life trying to pay.

Ridiculous, right?

At some point, it has to hurt, that they are not "allowing" anything to live, but I doubt it will ever dawn on them that Evolution is to blame, it would take a genius to be able to work out how to get that across. God send the genius, but when it says they are given a delusion, I think it really means it: God is not going to give a hall pass to people who don't respect property at all. I will be in Heaven, laughing, but they will not hear it: all they will hear is "do this, do that" and no reason for it. That hurts me, to have to say that its a lost cause, but I really think doom is the order of the day - when they see what happens to a faith that does everything to save those around it, they will all but throw theory in general, in the bin. It just won't make sense to believe something that promises so much, but at the expense of treating people credibly - like that you actually see, that someone besides you, could care what is going to happen to you.

Gottservant!

I know the sense of futility you feel. I have been arguing against evolution for over 25 years now (since I grew from being an ardent evolutionist to seeing the scientific evidence points more to divine young earth creation)

Learn what you can, and above all learn the Word of God! Remember faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God! It is not our job to convert the evolutionist to Christ! That is for the Holy Spirit to accomplish. OUr job is to present the Word of Gd and also to use science as tools to help crack the stronghold of evolution in their lives so they can see that God is Creator not evolver. We may never see any of them change their hearts and minds, and some we may only see in heaven that we planted, and another watered and still another harvested.

Be faithful to what God has burdened your heart to do in this. Obedience and not results are what God expects and rewards for!

The Barbarian · May 18, 2020

Gottservant said:
Something I have thought of doing recently, is to present the problem of death - in an ongoing sense - to proponents of Evolution: like "how does Evolution help you cope, with the fact that people you know are going to die?"

Why should it? Until we received an immortal soul from God, we didn't know we were fated to die. And afterwards, we had His word of salvation beyond our physical deaths. I get what you're saying; you love people, then they die and you never see them again on this Earth.

It's like the animals I've befriended and showed me trust over the years. My dogs; a dove that oddly insisted on living under the eaves of my shed; a pair of great horned owls who lived for years in the park across the street. I grieved for all of them at the end. Far as I know, their spirits don't persist longer than their bodies. I could be wrong; the Bible is not explicit on that. But I don't think they do.

I can only hope that in some ways their lives were better for me having been there. I don't think God considers any kind of love and trust to be wasted. (Edit: Not that it was one-way at all; I need to have animal friends; I'm not complete without them.)

Maybe atheists find the same kind of comfort in thinking that way about their lost friends. Science won't do it for you. That's not what its for.

nolidad · May 18, 2020

hedrick said:
You’re still thinking that evolution is something people adopt to accomplish something. Generally people believe it happened because all the evidence says it actually did. Many of us are committed to starting with truth and then looking at how we should live. We don’t start by looking at what would be most comfortable or what would fit best with our religion.

No. People generally believe it happened, because they have been indoctrinated in evolutionary philosophy since their earliest science education!

Teh empirical, testable scientific facts far more strongly support the young earth creation model of origins, than the big bang/darwinian evolutionary model of origins.

Brightmoon · May 18, 2020

nolidad said:
No. People generally believe it happened, because they have been indoctrinated in evolutionary philosophy since their earliest science education!

Teh empirical, testable scientific facts far more strongly support the young earth creation model of origins, than the big bang/darwinian evolutionary model of origins.

. I first became aware that humans belong in Clade Animalia when I was 8 back in the early 60s I WASNT told anything about evolution neither were my contemporaries and that lasted until I was in college. So why do I accept evolution? Because of the slow trickle of evidence I was exposed to. I’m a houseplant fiend and will cheerfully admit to having too many . A lot of the aroids are houseplants and that’s a huge family . Snake plants , Pothos, dieffenbachias, philodendrons , syngoniums, Chinese evergreen etc , all different species in different genera but obviously close relatives . That’s macroevolution btw! By the age of 11 I was aware that mammals and birds had the same bones but they were just different shapes . As a biology major in college I learned about biochemical and genetic similarities. On the creationist side I found impossible situations like birds turning into crocodiles ( and vice versa) . Or outright lying . I specifically do not accept creationism because 1 they’ve never put out any verifiable evidence for separate creation 2 they misunderstand or twist into incomprehensibility the teeny bit of actual evidence they showcase and 3 outright lying about long confirmed scientific realities.4 they’ve never demonstrated nor have any evidence of that so called barrier between “kinds”

JackRT · May 18, 2020

nolidad said:
No. People generally believe it happened, because they have been indoctrinated in evolutionary philosophy since their earliest science education!

And most Christians have been indoctrinated in theology sometimes since birth.

The empirical, testable scientific facts far more strongly support the young earth creation model of origins, than the big bang/darwinian evolutionary model of origins.

Both the Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution are very well established major theories, with enormous levels of verification and evidence. The ToE is stronger, probably, than the BBT, but it's sort of like saying 'steel is fairly strong but titanium alloy is stronger' - either one will serve for tableware with no danger of failure due to stress. At this point there are no known major issues with either theory. Details to be filled in? Yes. Serious difficulties?

Brightmoon · May 18, 2020

As far as the Big Bang is concerned. I’m actually trusting my physicist colleagues to not lie . Since what they say sounds logical and a young earth violates too many natural laws I just don’t accept it either.

The Barbarian · May 18, 2020

nolidad said:
o. People generally believe it happened, because they have been indoctrinated in evolutionary philosophy since their earliest science education!

I've shown you that it's directly observed. As we showed you earlier, you've confused evolution (which is observed every day), with a consequence of evolution (common descent).

And you've also been shown that most YE creationist organizations now admit to a limited amount of common descent. Would you like me to show you that, again?

Empirical, testable scientific facts show that evolution is an observed phenomenon.

...the big bang/darwinian evolutionary model of origins.

As you also learned, evolutionary theory isn't bout the big bang or the origin of life, or many other things that upset you. It's just about living populations and how they change over time.

If you could remember that, most of your problems with science would be solved.

nolidad · May 19, 2020

The Barbarian said:
I've shown you that it's directly observed. As we showed you earlier, you've confused evolution (which is observed every day), with a consequence of evolution (common descent).

And you've also been shown that most YE creationist organizations now admit to a limited amount of common descent. Would you like me to show you that, again?

Empirical, testable scientific facts show that evolution is an observed phenomenon.

As you also learned, evolutionary theory isn't bout the big bang or the origin of life, or many other things that upset you. It's just about living populations and how they change over time.

If you could remember that, most of your problems with science would be solved.

Yeah yeah yeah . You rfine little word games. Little e evolution is not what we are talking about and you know that. YOu just wish to muddy the waters! It is the Big E evolution or microbes to man by mutation preserved through natural selection over X millions of years that is unobserved and untestable. But you know that!

nolidad · May 19, 2020

JackRT said:
And most Christians have been indoctrinated in theology sometimes since birth.

Both the Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution are very well established major theories, with enormous levels of verification and evidence. The ToE is stronger, probably, than the BBT, but it's sort of like saying 'steel is fairly strong but titanium alloy is stronger' - either one will serve for tableware with no danger of failure due to stress. At this point there are no known major issues with either theory. Details to be filled in? Yes. Serious difficulties?

I agree that BB/ToE are very well established theories. But not with enormous verification and levels of evidence! It is with enormous interpretation and preconceived beliefs. I was an ardent evolutionist and came kicking and screamoing to divine young earth creation because of the science, not indoctrination. My sect of Christendom I attended as a kid believed in evolution!

Well there are enormous difficulties with both theories!

for the BBT, the biggest is deep space time and the age of the universe,
for ToE- mutations as the main driver of the gentic change required for microbes to man to take place!

Brightmoon · May 19, 2020

nolidad said:
Yeah yeah yeah . You rfine little word games. Little e evolution is not what we are talking about and you know that. YOu just wish to muddy the waters! It is the Big E evolution or microbes to man by mutation preserved through natural selection over X millions of years that is unobserved and untestable. But you know that!

. We really don’t have a special word for that . Once a single species becomes more than one that macroevolution. Whether it’s a single lizard species becoming two different lizard species or the microbes to man type repeated speciations . It’s all macroevolution. It’s been directly observed in the short term and confirmed for the longer speciation lineages we even use some evolved species as food (corn evolved from teosinte)

nolidad · May 19, 2020

Brightmoon said:
. We really don’t have a special word for that . Once a single species becomes more than one that macroevolution. Whether it’s a lizard species becoming two lizard species or the microbes to man type repeated speciations . It’s all macroevolution. It’s been observed and we even use some evolved species as food ( corn evolved from tiosinte

Well both you and crabby old white guy both know that when I speak of evolution I am talking microbes to man! When you nit pick that it is all word games.

I am stuck thinking I need to prove faith to Evolutionists, when the Bible says "they're deluded"

God loves your words, may men love them also

God loves your words, may men love them also

God loves your words, may men love them also

God loves your words, may men love them also

God loves your words, may men love them also

Well-Known Member

God loves your words, may men love them also

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Crabby Old White Guy

Well-Known Member

Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

Well-Known Member

Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

Crabby Old White Guy

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

Well-Known Member

Similar threads