Which person of the Trinity was within the pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night?

topher694 · Apr 3, 2020

A couple recommendations for YOUR next threads:
Hidden pride
The dangers of offense

To all:
There is a difference between studying what is in the Word and manufacturing things that are not there. It is a POSITIVE thing to not get distracted when studying the Word.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 3, 2020

topher694 said:
A couple recommendations for YOUR next threads:
Hidden pride
The dangers of offense

Well, God truly knows my heart, thoughts, and intentions.
I am confident that the Lord knows my life, and ways.
In either case, may God bless you.

You said:
To all:
There is a difference between studying what is in the Word and manufacturing things that are not there. It is a POSITIVE thing to not get distracted when studying the Word.

Just because you don't see any significance in the answer does not mean you have all the answers of God's Word to know that such a thing is insignificant. I actually do think there is an important reason behind knowing which person of the Trinity was within the pillar of cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night. While I am sure there may be other reasons, I believe one reason has to do with the Israelites who did not enter the Promised Land, and Stephen's message about how those who would martyr him always resisted the Hoy Ghost. Do you disagree that the Passover is related to Christ's sacrifice? If you were to take a literal reading of Scripture and write such a thing off as insignificant, you would miss Christ in the Passover, and the importance of how we need to be covered by the blood of His protection. But no doubt you accept that Christ is our Passover because NT Scripture talks about that. But what if no NT Scripture did not mention it? Would it then be insignificant?

Bible Highlighter · Apr 3, 2020

Whether the Holy Spirit is within the actual pillar of cloud by day, and pillar of fire by night, this pillar that led the Israelites is symbolic of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers. I will explain this hopefully in my next post.

May God's love shine upon you all today;
And stay safe in the name of Jesus Christ.

topher694 · Apr 3, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Do you disagree that the Passover is related to Christ's sacrifice?

Why do you do this? Start from a place of disagreement? There has been zero discussion about Passover up until now and your starting point is a disguised attack. Not very charitable. In fact, what I would say to someone in a Bible study behaving in such a manner is to not worry about which part of the Trinity is in the pillar of fire at the moment and rather focus on the more obvious and beneficial parts of scripture like loving your neighbor as yourself first. Get that down, then maybe you'll be better positioned to understand the pillar of fire.

As for the rest of your accusation
(btw their are some beneficial scriptures in the Bible about accusing the brethren)

Bible Highlighter said:
Do you disagree that the Passover is related to Christ's sacrifice? If you were to take a literal reading of Scripture and write such a thing off as insignificant, you would miss Christ in the Passover, and the importance of how we need to be covered by the blood of His protection. But no doubt you accept that Christ is our Passover because NT Scripture talks about that. But what if no NT Scripture did not mention it? Would it then be insignificant?

This is what I am preaching on for Psalm Sunday and Easter, I've been leading up to it by focusing on the OT scriptures almost entirely, specifically the foreshadowing. I am using zero NT scriptures that say Christ is our Passover, I'm using the OT to paint the picture and hopefully create greater revelation for people as I guide them in connecting the dots. Guess you missed it on that.

Bible Highlighter said:
Just because you don't see any significance in the answer does not mean you have all the answers of God's Word to know that such a thing is insignificant. I actually do think there is an important reason behind knowing which person of the Trinity was within the pillar of cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night. While I am sure there may be other reasons, I believe one reason has to do with the Israelites who did not enter the Promised Land, and Stephen's message about how those who would martyr him always resisted the Hoy Ghost.

And I just disagree. Which apparently is considered offensive in YOUR POSTS. The individual elements of what you are talking about all potentially have merit. Trying to pin one member of the Trinity on it, imo, does not. I absolutely love the small little details of scripture and preach on them often, but sometimes trying to get too fancy in examining scripture can lead to confusion and error, I have seen it many times. Given how long you have been around here I'm certain you have as well. Now, if there exists the possibility that it can create error or confusion, regardless of whether that applies here or not, it is definitely something of value and worth considering. That is all I initially brought to the table, and I continue to be attacked and ridiculed for doing so.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 3, 2020

topher694 said:
Why do you do this? Start from a place of disagreement? There has been zero discussion about Passover up until now and your starting point is a disguised attack. Not very charitable. In fact, what I would say to someone in a Bible study behaving in such a manner is to not worry about which part of the Trinity is in the pillar of fire at the moment and rather focus on the more obvious and beneficial parts of scripture like loving your neighbor as yourself first. Get that down, then maybe you'll be better positioned to understand the pillar of fire.

As for the rest of your accusation
(btw their are some beneficial scriptures in the Bible about accusing the brethren)

This is what I am preaching on for Psalm Sunday and Easter, I've been leading up to it by focusing on the OT scriptures almost entirely, specifically the foreshadowing. I am using zero NT scriptures that say Christ is our Passover, I'm using the OT to paint the picture and hopefully create greater revelation for people as I guide them in connecting the dots. Guess you missed it on that.

And I just disagree. Which apparently is considered offensive in YOUR POSTS. The individual elements of what you are talking about all potentially have merit. Trying to pin one member of the Trinity on it, imo, does not. I absolutely love the small little details of scripture and preach on them often, but sometimes trying to get too fancy in examining scripture can lead to confusion and error, I have seen it many times. Given how long you have been around here I'm certain you have as well. Now, if there exists the possibility that it can create error or confusion, regardless of whether that applies here or not, it is definitely something of value and worth considering. That is all I initially brought to the table, and I continue to be attacked and ridiculed for doing so.

But what if somebody came to you and did not see what you see and said that your little details that you preach on were insignificant? What if they had the same attitude that you have now in regards something that you hold dear in the most smallest details?

Again, just because you do not see the significance, does not mean that you have all the answers to know that there is no significance. Also, even if you did have all knowledge, being loving respectful is the better course of action (even if we disagree) (See: 1 Corinthians 13).

In any event, lets agree to disagree.
May God's love shine upon you this evening.

Hank77 · Apr 3, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Whether the Holy Spirit is within the actual pillar of cloud by day, and pillar of fire by night, this pillar that led the Israelites is symbolic of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers. I will explain this hopefully in my next post.

May God's love shine upon you all today;
And stay safe in the name of Jesus Christ.

That may be true but I have never taken a stand on that seeing that the Hebrew scripture doesn't say "LORD" but says "Yahweh/Yahovah, Jehovah in English. God told Moses that was His name.

topher694 · Apr 3, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
But what if somebody came to you and did not see what you see and said that your little details that you preach on were insignificant? What if they had the same attitude that you have now in regards something that you hold dear in the most smallest details?

Again, just because you do not see the significance, does not mean that you have all the answers to know that there is no significance. Also, even if you did have all knowledge, being loving respectful is the better course of action (even if we disagree) (See: 1 Corinthians 13).

Just because you see significance doesn't mean there is no value in considering that there is not significance. For what it is worth I did consider your initial premise quite a bit, therefore I do not think I have all the answers, but I do have quite a bit of experience, especially with these things creating confusion for others. I'll leave you with with this, considering what I am saying doesn't hurt anything because you do not have all the answers either.

Bible Highlighter said:
In any event, lets agree to disagree.
May God's love shine upon you this evening.

Very well... and you as well.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 3, 2020

topher694 said:
Just because you see significance doesn't mean there is no value in considering that there is not significance. For what it is worth I did consider your initial premise quite a bit, therefore I do not think I have all the answers, but I do have quite a bit of experience, especially with these things creating confusion for others. I'll leave you with with this, considering what I am saying doesn't hurt anything because you do not have all the answers either.

Very well... and you as well.

I never said I had all the answers. But you should not act like you do have all the answers and say there is no significance. It can be taken the wrong way. Again, I highly doubt that you would not take offense if somebody reacted the same way to your revelation to something involving the most smallest details, and you thought it was awesome, while they considered it to be nothing, and they kept fighting over words with you in how it was nothing (When you believed otherwise).

Anyways, I hope you see where I am coming from;
Blessings to you in the Lord.

klutedavid · Apr 3, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Which person (or persons) of the Trinity was within the pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night?

"And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night" (Exodus 13:21).

1 Corinthians 10:1-4
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 3, 2020

klutedavid said:
1 Corinthians 10:1-4
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

Yes, I just recently posted about this in a recent thread here about this; I made the same point about how Christ followed the Israelites through the Red Sea and I used 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 as my biblical defense. But there were two that followed the Israelites through the red sea.

The angel of God, and the pillar (Which was a pillar of cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night).

"And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:" (Exodus 14:19).

Here is what I wrote (recently in the other thread):

Important Note so that there is no confusion:

Christ is the Eternal God who is the creator (John 1:1 KJV), uncreated, and second person of the Godhead (i.e. the Word) who was made flesh (John 1:14 KJV). For the Lord our God is one God who exists in three distinct persons (i.e. the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit) (1 John 5:7 KJV). Jesus Christ is God Almighty in the flesh and He is not a created angel. In the KJV: the word "angel" in reference to the title "Angel of the Lord" is actually translated as "Messenger" in the Hebrew. So the words as we would understand it today would say "Messenger of the Lord". So, no. Jesus is not an angel. It is merely a title or a name only! Anyways, I believe this "Messenger of the Lord" is a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus Christ (Who is God) in the Old Testament. Again, these pre-incarnate appearances are called "Theophanies" or "Christophanies".

Jesus (Who is the Eternal God) is the Messenger of the Lord in the OT:

It is quite astonishing to discover that Jesus Christ appears not only in the prophecies and typifications within the Old Testament but He also actually makes real pre-incarnate physical appearances in the Old Testament, as well. Many of these appearances are under the title of the "Angel of the Lord" in the KJV. Yet, we clearly know that Jesus is not a created angel or being but He is God Almighty Himself (or the second person in the Godhead).

Anyways, please take the time to look up the origin of the word "angel" at etymonline. While you are there, you will discover that it can also be defined as "messenger".

Online Etymology Dictionary

In other words, Jesus is the Messenger of the Lord in the Old Testament!

Now, where does our Lord Jesus appear as a messenger in the Old Testament?

1. The Story of Hagar -

Genesis 16:7-13

The angel of the LORD promised to do something that only God can do (see v.10). Hagar knew that it was the Lord who spoke to her (v. 13) and she identified the angel of the LORD as God: "Thou God seest me" (v.13).

Genesis 21:17-20

The angel of the Lord promised to do something only God can do (see v.18). This angel is identified as God (v.19).

2. The Story of Abraham & Sarah -

Genesis 18:1-33

Although the title of the "angel of the Lord" is not used here, it is clear within this chapter that is Jesus Christ. First, "the Lord appeared unto him (i.e. Abraham)" (v. 1) followed by the immediate appearance of three men (v. 2). Abraham and Sarah both call him Lord, as well (v. 3) (v. 12). The Lord also knew Sarah had laughed at God's promise when she was not present (v. 15).

3. The Story of Abraham & Isaac -

Genesis 22:15-18

The angel of the Lord is speaking (verses 15-16) and yet verse 16 makes it clear that it is God who is speaking ("saith the LORD")! In verses 17-18 the angel of the Lord promises to do what only God can do.

4. The Story of Jacob -

Genesis 31:11-13

The angel of God (v.11) identifies Himself as God: "I am the God of Bethel" (v.13).

Genesis 32:24-32

Jacob wrestles with a man who he later identifies the place with the name "Peniel", which means he had seen God face to face (v. 30).

5. The Story of Joseph -

Genesis 48:14-16

When Jacob was blessing Joseph and his sons he mentions :The Angel which redeemed me from all evil" (v. 16). Now, last time I checked, but angels do not redeem anyone. They are simply guardians.

6. The Story of Moses -

Exodus 3:2-7

The angel of the Lord appeared to Moses out of the midst of a burning bush and identified Himself as God (verses 4 and 6) and as Lord (verses 4 and 7). See also Acts 7:30-32 where the angel of the Lord is identified as the Lord God.

Exodus 14:19-21

The angel of God does what only God can do (verses 19-20) and is identified with the glorious manifestation of God in the pillar of the cloud (verses 19-20). In verse 21 this angel is identified as "the LORD".

Exodus 23:20-23

This passage makes it clear that the Lord’s angel is much more than a mere angel; this angel is closely identified with God: Lord’s "name is in Him" (v.21, "name" referring to Lord's nature and character) and God’s people must "obey His voice" (v.21). Indeed, He has the authority to "pardon your transgressions" or not to pardon them, and who can forgive sins but God alone? Notice that the angel is distinct from God and sent by God. The LORD said, "Behold, I send an angel before thee." We are reminded of New Testament parallels as the Son was distinct from the Father and sent by the Father (John 3:17; etc.) and yet equal to the Father (John 5:18) (John 10:30).

7. The Story of Balaam -

Numbers 22:20-35

Now in the story of Balaam, we begin with God speaking directly to Balaam, then a transition from God to "angel of the Lord" So guess who was standing before Balaam? None other than Jesus Christ. The "angel of the LORD" is used many times in verses 23-26, and verses 31-35 and the LORD in verses 28-31. Then continuing in Chapter 23 God meets Balaam in verse 4 and the LORD is mentioned in verses 5 and 16. These titles are being used interchangeably.

8. The Story of Joshua -

Joshua 5:13-15

Again, although the "Angel of the Lord" is not mentioned here, Jesus did appear to Joshua in the form of a man. This man was worshiped by Joshua (v. 14) and this man declared that Joshua was standing on Holy ground (v. 15).

9. The Beginning Story of the Judges -

Judges 2:1-3

The angel of Lord says things that only God could say. God is the One who brought them into the land which He swore to give unto their fathers (v.1). God is the One who promised to never break His covenant (v.1).

10. The Story of Gideon -

Judges 6:11-24

As you follow this passage, pay close attention to who is speaking to Gideon: in verse 12 the angel of the Lord is speaking; in verse 14 the Lord is speaking; in verse 16 the Lord is speaking; in verse 20 the angel of God is speaking. Lord and the angel of Lord are one and the same.

11. The Story of Samson's Birth -

Judges 13:3-23

Note especially verses 17-18. Manoah said to the angel of the Lord, "What is Thy Name?" (v.17) and the angel of the Lord said, "Why asketh thou thus after My Name, seeing it is secret?" The word "secret" may be translated "wonderful." It is the same Hebrew word found in Isaiah 9:6 – "His Name shall be called wonderful." In Isaiah 9:6 the term is used as a name of Christ who is also called "the Mighty God." The fact that the Lord's angel was God was certainly known by Manoah. After the angel of the Lord appeared to him Manoah said, "We have seen God!" (v.22).

Conclusion:

The Angel of the Lord is also mentioned in the story of David, Isaiah, the Psalms, and Zechariah. So it is amazing to see how Jesus Christ being our eternal God was always present in the past, even revealing Himself within the sacred Scriptures of the Old Testament, too.

Post source:
Jesus is the Messenger of the Lord in the Old Testament.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 3, 2020

Now, while I do lean towards the idea that the pillar of the cloud by day (and fire by night) could be either filled by the Spirit or representative of the Holy Spirit, I do believe that the glory of the Lord (within the cloud) that filled the tabernacle in Exodus 40:34-38 and that filled Solomon's temple in 1 Kings 8:4-14 could be Jesus (See: John 1:14).

But what does the pillar of the cloud by day have to do with the Spirit? The Israelites were baptized in the Red Sea according to 1 Corinthians 10:1-2. John the Baptist said "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" (Matthew 3:11).

Bible Highlighter · Apr 3, 2020

Post with Scripture removed [in honor of my belief in the King James Bible].

Bible Highlighter · Apr 3, 2020

Hank77 said:
That may be true but I have never taken a stand on that seeing that the Hebrew scripture doesn't say "LORD" but says "Yahweh/Yahovah, Jehovah in English. God told Moses that was His name.

2 Corinthians 3:15-18 GNT

15 "Even today, whenever they read the Law of Moses, the veil still covers their minds.
16 But it can be removed, as the scripture says about Moses:

“His veil was removed when he turned to the Lord”

17 Now, “the Lord” in this passage is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is present, there is freedom.
18 All of us, then, reflect the glory of the Lord with uncovered faces; and that same glory, coming from the Lord, who is the Spirit, transforms us into his likeness in an ever greater degree of glory."

See Exodus 34:34-35.

Hank77 · Apr 3, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
2 Corinthians 3:15-18 GNT

15 "Even today, whenever they read the Law of Moses, the veil still covers their minds.
16 But it can be removed, as the scripture says about Moses:

“His veil was removed when he turned to the Lord”

17 Now, “the Lord” in this passage is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is present, there is freedom.
18 All of us, then, reflect the glory of the Lord with uncovered faces; and that same glory, coming from the Lord, who is the Spirit, transforms us into his likeness in an ever greater degree of glory."
See Exodus 34:34-35.

My question is simple but I don't know the answer.
Is Jehovah and Jesus the same? Or is Jehovah the Father?

Bible Highlighter · Apr 3, 2020

Hank77 said:
My question is simple but I don't know the answer.
Is Jehovah and Jesus the same? Or is Jehovah the Father?

Isaiah 44:6 says,

"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD [Yĕhovah - H3068] of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

Revelation 22:13 says,

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

Most Christians understand Revelation 22:13 to be in reference to Jesus speaking
(Also see: Revelation 1:5-8). So in the example I have given for Jehovah, this would be Jesus. But Jesus and the Father are one. Meaning they abide in each other, too.

klutedavid · Apr 3, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Yes, I just recently posted about this in a recent thread here about this; I made the same point about how Christ followed the Israelites through the Red Sea and I used 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 as my biblical defense. But there were two that followed the Israelites through the red sea.

The angel of God, and the pillar (Which was a pillar of cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night).

"And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:" (Exodus 14:19).

Here is what I wrote (recently in the other thread):

Important Note so that there is no confusion:

Christ is the Eternal God who is the creator (John 1:1 KJV), uncreated, and second person of the Godhead (i.e. the Word) who was made flesh (John 1:14 KJV). For the Lord our God is one God who exists in three distinct persons (i.e. the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit) (1 John 5:7 KJV). Jesus Christ is God Almighty in the flesh and He is not a created angel. In the KJV: the word "angel" in reference to the title "Angel of the Lord" is actually translated as "Messenger" in the Hebrew. So the words as we would understand it today would say "Messenger of the Lord". So, no. Jesus is not an angel. It is merely a title or a name only! Anyways, I believe this "Messenger of the Lord" is a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus Christ (Who is God) in the Old Testament. Again, these pre-incarnate appearances are called "Theophanies" or "Christophanies".

Jesus (Who is the Eternal God) is the Messenger of the Lord in the OT:

It is quite astonishing to discover that Jesus Christ appears not only in the prophecies and typifications within the Old Testament but He also actually makes real pre-incarnate physical appearances in the Old Testament, as well. Many of these appearances are under the title of the "Angel of the Lord" in the KJV. Yet, we clearly know that Jesus is not a created angel or being but He is God Almighty Himself (or the second person in the Godhead).

Anyways, please take the time to look up the origin of the word "angel" at etymonline. While you are there, you will discover that it can also be defined as "messenger".

Online Etymology Dictionary

In other words, Jesus is the Messenger of the Lord in the Old Testament!

Now, where does our Lord Jesus appear as a messenger in the Old Testament?

1. The Story of Hagar -

Genesis 16:7-13

The angel of the LORD promised to do something that only God can do (see v.10). Hagar knew that it was the Lord who spoke to her (v. 13) and she identified the angel of the LORD as God: "Thou God seest me" (v.13).

Genesis 21:17-20

The angel of the Lord promised to do something only God can do (see v.18). This angel is identified as God (v.19).

2. The Story of Abraham & Sarah -

Genesis 18:1-33

Although the title of the "angel of the Lord" is not used here, it is clear within this chapter that is Jesus Christ. First, "the Lord appeared unto him (i.e. Abraham)" (v. 1) followed by the immediate appearance of three men (v. 2). Abraham and Sarah both call him Lord, as well (v. 3) (v. 12). The Lord also knew Sarah had laughed at God's promise when she was not present (v. 15).

3. The Story of Abraham & Isaac -

Genesis 22:15-18

The angel of the Lord is speaking (verses 15-16) and yet verse 16 makes it clear that it is God who is speaking ("saith the LORD")! In verses 17-18 the angel of the Lord promises to do what only God can do.

4. The Story of Jacob -

Genesis 31:11-13

The angel of God (v.11) identifies Himself as God: "I am the God of Bethel" (v.13).

Genesis 32:24-32

Jacob wrestles with a man who he later identifies the place with the name "Peniel", which means he had seen God face to face (v. 30).

5. The Story of Joseph -

Genesis 48:14-16

When Jacob was blessing Joseph and his sons he mentions :The Angel which redeemed me from all evil" (v. 16). Now, last time I checked, but angels do not redeem anyone. They are simply guardians.

6. The Story of Moses -

Exodus 3:2-7

The angel of the Lord appeared to Moses out of the midst of a burning bush and identified Himself as God (verses 4 and 6) and as Lord (verses 4 and 7). See also Acts 7:30-32 where the angel of the Lord is identified as the Lord God.

Exodus 14:19-21

The angel of God does what only God can do (verses 19-20) and is identified with the glorious manifestation of God in the pillar of the cloud (verses 19-20). In verse 21 this angel is identified as "the LORD".

Exodus 23:20-23

This passage makes it clear that the Lord’s angel is much more than a mere angel; this angel is closely identified with God: Lord’s "name is in Him" (v.21, "name" referring to Lord's nature and character) and God’s people must "obey His voice" (v.21). Indeed, He has the authority to "pardon your transgressions" or not to pardon them, and who can forgive sins but God alone? Notice that the angel is distinct from God and sent by God. The LORD said, "Behold, I send an angel before thee." We are reminded of New Testament parallels as the Son was distinct from the Father and sent by the Father (John 3:17; etc.) and yet equal to the Father (John 5:18) (John 10:30).

7. The Story of Balaam -

Numbers 22:20-35

Now in the story of Balaam, we begin with God speaking directly to Balaam, then a transition from God to "angel of the Lord" So guess who was standing before Balaam? None other than Jesus Christ. The "angel of the LORD" is used many times in verses 23-26, and verses 31-35 and the LORD in verses 28-31. Then continuing in Chapter 23 God meets Balaam in verse 4 and the LORD is mentioned in verses 5 and 16. These titles are being used interchangeably.

8. The Story of Joshua -

Joshua 5:13-15

Again, although the "Angel of the Lord" is not mentioned here, Jesus did appear to Joshua in the form of a man. This man was worshiped by Joshua (v. 14) and this man declared that Joshua was standing on Holy ground (v. 15).

9. The Beginning Story of the Judges -

Judges 2:1-3

The angel of Lord says things that only God could say. God is the One who brought them into the land which He swore to give unto their fathers (v.1). God is the One who promised to never break His covenant (v.1).

10. The Story of Gideon -

Judges 6:11-24

As you follow this passage, pay close attention to who is speaking to Gideon: in verse 12 the angel of the Lord is speaking; in verse 14 the Lord is speaking; in verse 16 the Lord is speaking; in verse 20 the angel of God is speaking. Lord and the angel of Lord are one and the same.

11. The Story of Samson's Birth -

Judges 13:3-23

Note especially verses 17-18. Manoah said to the angel of the Lord, "What is Thy Name?" (v.17) and the angel of the Lord said, "Why asketh thou thus after My Name, seeing it is secret?" The word "secret" may be translated "wonderful." It is the same Hebrew word found in Isaiah 9:6 – "His Name shall be called wonderful." In Isaiah 9:6 the term is used as a name of Christ who is also called "the Mighty God." The fact that the Lord's angel was God was certainly known by Manoah. After the angel of the Lord appeared to him Manoah said, "We have seen God!" (v.22).

Conclusion:

The Angel of the Lord is also mentioned in the story of David, Isaiah, the Psalms, and Zechariah. So it is amazing to see how Jesus Christ being our eternal God was always present in the past, even revealing Himself within the sacred Scriptures of the Old Testament, too.

Post source:
Jesus is the Messenger of the Lord in the Old Testament.

I agree with everything you wrote and I am already familiar with what you wrote.

Though I would classify the messenger as the Son unrevealed to humanity. The authors of the Old Testament were unaware who that messenger was. On occasion He was asked His name but did not reveal it, for good reason.

Genesis 32:29
Then Jacob asked him and said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And he blessed him there.

It is obvious who the messenger is.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 3, 2020

klutedavid said:
I agree with everything you wrote and I am already familiar with what you wrote.

Though I would classify the messenger as the Son unrevealed to humanity. The authors of the Old Testament were unaware who that messenger was. On occasion He was asked His name but did not reveal it, for good reason.

Genesis 32:29
Then Jacob asked him and said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And he blessed him there.

It is obvious who the messenger is.

Agreed. I am not saying it is 100% biblical fact, but I do lean heavily that the main person of the Trinity inside the pillar of cloud by day, and the pillar of fire by night was the Holy Spirit. The angel of God (JESUS) that was also in the red sea could have entered into this pillar. This would line up with Jesus being indwelled by the Spirit at His baptism. Anyways, I see that there is a parallel in the fact that the Israelites were guided by the pillar of cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night in comparison with how Christians today are guided by the Holy Spirit. Whether or not the Spirit was the main person inside the pillar of cloud by day, and the pillar of fire by night is not a 100% fact, but it seems plausible or possible because of some of the parallels we see in Scripture.

Hank77 · Apr 4, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Isaiah 44:6 says,

"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD [Yĕhovah - H3068] of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

Revelation 22:13 says,

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

Most Christians understand Revelation 22:13 to be in reference to Jesus speaking
(Also see: Revelation 1:5-8). So in the example I have given for Jehovah, this would be Jesus. But Jesus and the Father are one. Meaning they abide in each other, too.

Isaiah 44:6 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
6 Thus said Jehovah, king of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of Hosts: `I [am] the first, and I the last, And besides Me there is no God.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 4, 2020

Hank77 said:
Isaiah 44:6 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
6 Thus said Jehovah, king of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of Hosts: `I [am] the first, and I the last, And besides Me there is no God.

Right, there is no contradiction in what I said.
Jesus and the Father are one. The Trinity is three distinct persons and yet they also exist as one God.

Hank77 · Apr 4, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Right, there is no contradiction in what I said.
Jesus and the Father are one. The Trinity is three distinct persons and yet they also exist as one God.

There was never any disagreement about the Trinity.

Which person of the Trinity was within the pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night?

Which person (or persons) of the Trinity was within the pillar of cloud by day and fire by night?

The Father.

The Son (or the Living Word).

The Holy Spirit.

All three persons of the Trinity.

Other (Please explain).

Go Turtle!

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Go Turtle!

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Go Turtle!

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

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