Law, or Life?

WordSword

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It is a given that there is greater ease in exercising self-dependence than dependence in another, and such is the difference between the two dispensations; and is also why the prior is so often acquiesced to (in ignorance) and the latter so misunderstood in many of its operations. The prior Covenant arranged forgiveness according to the obedience and power of man, e.g. do this or that and receive forgiveness and blessings, as the obedience manifested faith in God’s method of forgiveness through His Covenant with man (Lev 4:20; Num 15:25, etc). The present Covenant is arranged so that forgiveness and blessings are received according to the Lord Jesus’ obedience, and man’s obedience still manifests faith and love in God, and not of his own power but through the power of His Spirit and His Eternal Covenant with His Son; and man is only the recipient of its eternal benefits.
NC






Law, or Life?


Consistency if being true to a given standard. The constant taunt is that there is more consistency when a lower position is assumed than when a higher one is insisted on. It is said, for instance, and with some show of justice (i.e. truth—NC), that they who make the law their rule of life are more consistent than they who believe and assume that Christ is their Life in everything (of course the prior being no longer extant - Heb 7:11, 18, 19; 8:6-8; 10:9; Gal 3:23-25—NC). The force of the reproach is this, that they who do not profess such high ground are on the whole better men, and less erratic than they who do.

It must be remembered that the law address a man in the flesh; but the Lord Jesus is only known and maintained by His own Spirit (Rom 8:9; 1Pe 1:11). I do not disown and count dead the old man by the law; I cultivate and restrain him, and according as this is successful, I add to man’s self-respect and self-distinction. On the contrary, as the Lord Jesus is received and followed, man as he is in the flesh is counted dead; and the Spirit, who controls and uses his body and mind as belonging to Christ, is alone acknowledged and depended upon. “Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.”

Now there is a great difference between these two standards; and not only so, but the effect or demand which each has on me is vastly different. In the one case I am required to exalt man to the only true, proper elevation for a man; in the other I am required to be a dead man and accept Another and higher Life, and in the power of it to manifest Him who is the fountain and source of it to me. Surly the difference is immeasurable.

Hence, if I analyze the history of a disciple of each of these standards, I cannot fail to see that the one who is required to exalt himself to his highest moral point makes a better appearance, and walks apparently with more consistency (but to no avail, its method no longer existing—NC) than the one who is called to set aside the Adam-life at every point—which is the ground he has professed to take—to walk outside that which is of the flesh, in the Spirit of Christ, as a heavenly man.

No doubt that the latter surpasses the former when he is consistent with his standard, but this can only be in proportion as he is held by the power which transfers him from his old nature and into Christ. If his hold on, or faith in, the power relaxes he is (appears—NC) worse off than one who only seeks to conform himself to the moral standard of the law, because he has nothing to fall back upon, or to act on as to himself, his calling being to live outside himself in the risen Lord Jesus; whereas the other is called accordingly to live in himself.

It is plain that if I made myself my study with any true purpose, I cultivate myself to exhibit a certain commendable appearance. The law was to set up the first Adam-life in its best estate. But if through grace I seek to live outside the first Adam, and to live in the Lord Jesus who is my Life, I am infinitely worse off in appearance, when I fall back to myself, than one who had never abandoned the old man at all.

Another thing has to be taken into account. The one who cultivates self obtains commendation from others in a measure that the one who cultivates life in the Lord Jesus will never receive or elicit. The one cultivates what exalts man, and therefore what suits man; the other, cultivates that which ignores man and which rises above him. We must not forget, “that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the site of God” (Luk 16:15 – “among men” intends the majority of mankind, as believers esteem God the highest—NC).

—J B Stoney (1814-97)


MJS excerpt for April 2:

“The Lord Jesus not only died for every sin in our life, but He lives for every second of our life. We cannot rest in Him until we realize that there is never an instant that He is not caring for us. It is as though each of His own were His only one.” –Miles J Stanford

“So many saints are disturbed, so many are restless, because they are not living in the knowledge that they are under the care of the Lord; and then there is no power to walk. Why have you so little power in walk or service? It is because you are not yet clear that the Lord is caring for you, that He is in all watchfulness over you, that He has let down the strong pinions of His protecting care till they sweep the ground around you, and, if you are wise, you will creep up close under His wings, into the very down.” -J.B.S.
None But The Hungry Heart
 

not under law

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It is a given that there is greater ease in exercising self-dependence than dependence in another, and such is the difference between the two dispensations; and is also why the prior is so often acquiesced to (in ignorance) and the latter so misunderstood in many of its operations. The prior Covenant arranged forgiveness according to the obedience and power of man, e.g. do this or that and receive forgiveness and blessings, as the obedience manifested faith in God’s method of forgiveness through His Covenant with man (Lev 4:20; Num 15:25, etc). The present Covenant is arranged so that forgiveness and blessings are received according to the Lord Jesus’ obedience, and man’s obedience still manifests faith and love in God, and not of his own power but through the power of His Spirit and His Eternal Covenant with His Son; and man is only the recipient of its eternal benefits.
NC






Hence:
Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offence of the cross has been abolished Gal5:11
 
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WordSword

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Good morning WordSword,

Up for another round ;)?


If so then tell me which "two dispensations" and the place I might find scripture stating there are two dispensations and those are it.
Hi, and not certain we have enough common beliefs to avoid unnecessary and improper debate on an issue. God bless your Family!
 
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Josheb

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Hi, and not certain we have enough common beliefs to avoid unnecessary and improper debate on an issue. God bless your Family!
Last time we traded posts a week-long discussion ensued that covered more than sixty posts and I don't recall a single improper word being posted. In fact, I just looked up the last four other ops in which we traded posts and although much, much briefer than the last there was plenty of agreement so why this response?
 
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WordSword

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Last time we traded posts a week-long discussion ensued that covered more than sixty posts and I don't recall a single improper word being posted. In fact, I just looked up the last four other ops in which we traded posts and although much, much briefer than the last there was plenty of agreement so why this response?
I'm sorry, I could have been more clear, but by improper I'm not referring to words but incorrect doctrine, and by unnecessary debates I mean the consistent differences in most of our beliefs, which when two believers vary excessively in understanding usually results in merely continually having to attempt to explain to each other what we mean, but not to much avail due to the excessive variations of acceptance of truth. Plus you are still prone to argumentation which is something I avoid on the net.
 
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Soyeong

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It is a given that there is greater ease in exercising self-dependence than dependence in another, and such is the difference between the two dispensations; and is also why the prior is so often acquiesced to (in ignorance) and the latter so misunderstood in many of its operations. The prior Covenant arranged forgiveness according to the obedience and power of man, e.g. do this or that and receive forgiveness and blessings, as the obedience manifested faith in God’s method of forgiveness through His Covenant with man (Lev 4:20; Num 15:25, etc). The present Covenant is arranged so that forgiveness and blessings are received according to the Lord Jesus’ obedience, and man’s obedience still manifests faith and love in God, and not of his own power but through the power of His Spirit and His Eternal Covenant with His Son; and man is only the recipient of its eternal benefits.
NC

Law, or Life?


Consistency if being true to a given standard. The constant taunt is that there is more consistency when a lower position is assumed than when a higher one is insisted on. It is said, for instance, and with some show of justice (i.e. truth—NC), that they who make the law their rule of life are more consistent than they who believe and assume that Christ is their Life in everything (of course the prior being no longer extant - Heb 7:11, 18, 19; 8:6-8; 10:9; Gal 3:23-25—NC). The force of the reproach is this, that they who do not profess such high ground are on the whole better men, and less erratic than they who do.

It must be remembered that the law address a man in the flesh; but the Lord Jesus is only known and maintained by His own Spirit (Rom 8:9; 1Pe 1:11). I do not disown and count dead the old man by the law; I cultivate and restrain him, and according as this is successful, I add to man’s self-respect and self-distinction. On the contrary, as the Lord Jesus is received and followed, man as he is in the flesh is counted dead; and the Spirit, who controls and uses his body and mind as belonging to Christ, is alone acknowledged and depended upon. “Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.”

Now there is a great difference between these two standards; and not only so, but the effect or demand which each has on me is vastly different. In the one case I am required to exalt man to the only true, proper elevation for a man; in the other I am required to be a dead man and accept Another and higher Life, and in the power of it to manifest Him who is the fountain and source of it to me. Surly the difference is immeasurable.

Hence, if I analyze the history of a disciple of each of these standards, I cannot fail to see that the one who is required to exalt himself to his highest moral point makes a better appearance, and walks apparently with more consistency (but to no avail, its method no longer existing—NC) than the one who is called to set aside the Adam-life at every point—which is the ground he has professed to take—to walk outside that which is of the flesh, in the Spirit of Christ, as a heavenly man.

No doubt that the latter surpasses the former when he is consistent with his standard, but this can only be in proportion as he is held by the power which transfers him from his old nature and into Christ. If his hold on, or faith in, the power relaxes he is (appears—NC) worse off than one who only seeks to conform himself to the moral standard of the law, because he has nothing to fall back upon, or to act on as to himself, his calling being to live outside himself in the risen Lord Jesus; whereas the other is called accordingly to live in himself.

It is plain that if I made myself my study with any true purpose, I cultivate myself to exhibit a certain commendable appearance. The law was to set up the first Adam-life in its best estate. But if through grace I seek to live outside the first Adam, and to live in the Lord Jesus who is my Life, I am infinitely worse off in appearance, when I fall back to myself, than one who had never abandoned the old man at all.

Another thing has to be taken into account. The one who cultivates self obtains commendation from others in a measure that the one who cultivates life in the Lord Jesus will never receive or elicit. The one cultivates what exalts man, and therefore what suits man; the other, cultivates that which ignores man and which rises above him. We must not forget, “that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the site of God” (Luk 16:15 – “among men” intends the majority of mankind, as believers esteem God the highest—NC).

—J B Stoney (1814-97)


MJS excerpt for April 2:

“The Lord Jesus not only died for every sin in our life, but He lives for every second of our life. We cannot rest in Him until we realize that there is never an instant that He is not caring for us. It is as though each of His own were His only one.” –Miles J Stanford

“So many saints are disturbed, so many are restless, because they are not living in the knowledge that they are under the care of the Lord; and then there is no power to walk. Why have you so little power in walk or service? It is because you are not yet clear that the Lord is caring for you, that He is in all watchfulness over you, that He has let down the strong pinions of His protecting care till they sweep the ground around you, and, if you are wise, you will creep up close under His wings, into the very down.” -J.B.S.
None But The Hungry Heart

It is impossible to choose between law and life. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! The same goes for Deuteronomy 32:47. In Proverbs 3:18, she is a tree of life for those who take hold of her. In Leviticus 18:5, Galatians 3:12, and Romans 10:5, those who obey the law will attain life by it.

In Romans 7:14, God's law is spiritual. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law. In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted both God's law with the Law of the Spirit with the law of sin, so he equated the Mosaic Law with the Law of the Spirit. Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. After all, the Mosaic Law was given by God and the Spirit is God, so again it is the Law of the Spirit. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and he walked in complete obedience to the Mosaic Law.

If obedience to God's law were for God's good, then it would be about depending on our efforts to exalt ourselves and to earn favor with God for which He would be obligated to repay us, however, obedience to God is for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so it is instead about depending on God to guide us in how to rightly live, which is why it says that the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4) and why Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23). Only those who have faith in God to guide us in how we ought to live will obey His law and be justified by that same faith, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, but did not say that we earn our justification through our obedience.
 
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Josheb

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Plus you are still prone to argumentation which is something I avoid on the net.
WordSword, you are arguing with me now! And it is all so unnecessary. I posted a single very relevant and valid request:

Please tell me which "two dispensations" and the place I might find scripture stating there are two dispensations and those are it.​

There is no argument there. There is no "consistent difference" there. There is no "vary excessive" there. "Continually having to attempt to explain to each other what we mean" is not an argument, nor is there anything improper with such practice. And as far as "prone to argumentation" what argumentation exists currently is what you brought to your own op!


I have posted this to you before: when we discuss things we do well. When you refuse to discuss things then I proceed to post my views without your participation and collaboration. Go back and re-read our exchanges and verify that history if there is any doubt. I hold myself to the same exact standard to which I hold all others and to which I hope we all aspire:

A polite and respectful, reasonable and rational, cogent and coherent topical case of well-rendered scripture.

My request meets that measure.

Insinuating "improper debate" does not meet that standard.

Neither does accusing me of being prone to argumentation!




Please tell me which "two dispensations" and the place I might find scripture stating there are two dispensations and those are it.
 
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WordSword

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It is impossible to choose between law and life.
Thanks for your reply and comments! To begin with, it is difficult to answer questions and comments about the Law when it is not understood that it's Covenant solely applied to the Jews (thus all commands were only to "the people of God"), and that it is presently (even from the Jews) removed in order to "establish the present and "everlasting Covenant" (Heb 10:9, 13:21). If we refer to the law of God as the general principles of God, e.g. His will and desires, then we can properly seek His law. But if "law" is in reference to the Pentateuch (Law of Moses or Law of God) it cannot be considered, being nonexistent.

As I think we know the point of Scripture when indicating following the Law is of course not in reference to the ceremonial laws (e.g. sin offerings which established God's forgiveness of His people - Num 15) but to the moral laws (i.e. Decalogue or 10 Commandments). What is not commonly understood is that every time reference is made about living by the law (Ro 2:13: 10:5; Gal 3:12 and others) it is a supposition that one would be righteous if one could perfectly and with a sinless nature live by it, which of course is an impossibility of man; and answers to the need of Christ's expiation for believer's sins, which I think were attributed forward unto believers in God concerning the sin sacrifices which were types and shadows of Christ's Cross-work.

So, those who appear to depend on the moral Law of God for forgiveness are without remedy (even when it was in force because it was not obedience that procured forgiveness but the sacrificial ordinances mentioned in passages like Num 15), for "the law is not of faith" (Gal 3:12):

John Gill on Verse 12. And the law is not of faith,.... "for though the law is not of faith, yet not of man, but of God; the law does not consist of faith in Christ, nor does it require it, and that a man should live by it upon his righteousness; it is the Gospel that reveals the righteousness of Christ, and directs and encourages men to believe in him and be saved; nor does the law take any notice of a man's faith; nor has it anything to do with a man as a believer, but as a doer, in the point of justification." (a justification which can never be achieved when it is man-dependent--my comment)
Galatians 3 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

Forgiveness never came by obedience of man but by the Lord Jesus' sacrifice!
 
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WordSword

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WordSword, you are arguing with me now! And it is all so unnecessary. I posted a single very relevant and valid request:

Please tell me which "two dispensations" and the place I might find scripture stating there are two dispensations and those are it.​

There is no argument there. There is no "consistent difference" there. There is no "vary excessive" there. "Continually having to attempt to explain to each other what we mean" is not an argument, nor is there anything improper with such practice. And as far as "prone to argumentation" what argumentation exists currently is what you brought to your own op!
What I saw in our last communications (Steps in Love thread) was no different than the other three threads concerning our excessive disagreements. This isn't something that I consider bad but just that we cannot maintain an agreeable discussion on anything, and that's not suspecting either of us of wrongfulness but of just being incompatible when attempting communications.

I have been and still am considering retrying our debates though.
 
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Soyeong

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Thanks for your reply and comments! To begin with, it is difficult to answer questions and comments about the Law when it is not understood that it's Covenant solely applied to the Jews (thus all commands were only to "the people of God"), and that it is presently (even from the Jews) removed in order to "establish the present and "everlasting Covenant" (Heb 10:9, 13:21). If we refer to the law of God as the general principles of God, e.g. His will and desires, then we can properly seek His law. But if "law" is in reference to the Pentateuch (Law of Moses or Law of God) it cannot be considered, being nonexistent.

Thank you. While we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same nature and therefore the same instructions for how to walk in the same ways and express the same character traits. For example, the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness is straightforwardly based on God's righteousness, not on any particular covenant, and God's righteousness is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to do what is righteous are eternally valid regardless of which covenant we are under, though as part of the New Covenant those who do not follow those instructions are not children of God (1 John 3:10). Likewise, sin was in the world before the law was given (Romans 5:13), so there were no actions that became righteous or sinful when the law was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. For example, it was sinful to commit adultery before the Mosaic Covenant was made (Genesis 39:9), during it, and after is has become obsolete, so which actions are righteous or sinful do not change from covenant to covenant, and there existed a way to do what is righteous or sinful even before God made any covenants with man that we would still be obligated to obey. In Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant still involves following God's law, so while the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete, God's eternal righteousness and law did not become obsolete along with it.

As I think we know the point of Scripture when indicating following the Law is of course not in reference to the ceremonial laws (e.g. sin offerings which established God's forgiveness of His people - Num 15) but to the moral laws (i.e. Decalogue or 10 Commandments). What is not commonly understood is that every time reference is made about living by the law (Ro 2:13: 10:5; Gal 3:12 and others) it is a supposition that one would be righteous if one could perfectly and with a sinless nature live by it, which of course is an impossibility of man; and answers to the need of Christ's expiation for believer's sins, which I think were attributed forward unto believers in God concerning the sin sacrifices which were types and shadows of Christ's Cross-work.

Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws. The Bible makes no attempt to specify that the Ten Commandments are moral laws as opposed to everything else and there are no examples of disobedience to any of God's laws being considered to be moral. The authors of the Bible never used the subcategories or moral or ceremonial law.

The law itself came with instructions for what to do when the people sinned, so perfect obedience was never a requirement or an expectation for us, and the supposition that we need to have perfect obedience in order to attain righteousness is not supported by the Bible. If we needed perfect obedience for some strange reason, then there would be no point in repentance because it wouldn't change the fact that we have already failed to have perfect obedience, so the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that that is not a requirement for us. Again, Deuteronomy 30:11-20 presents it as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience. Thinking that we need to have perfect obedience makes God out to be an unloving Father who essentially gave the law in order to curse His children when in reality He is a loving Father who gave the law for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather they testify that it comes through faith in Christ for all who believe, so this has always been the one and only way to attain righteousness.

Righteousness is a character trait of God that is expressed by doing what is righteous and God's law is His instructions for how to express that character trait, not for how to attain it. When we have a character trait, then we will express it through our actions, so when God declares us to be righteous by grace through faith, He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His law. So the reason why we are to do what is righteous in obedience to God's law was never in order to attain righteousness, but because we have attained righteousness. The foreshadows testify of Christ and as his followers we should live in a way that testifies of him.

So, those who appear to depend on the moral Law of God for forgiveness are without remedy (even when it was in force because it was not obedience that procured forgiveness but the sacrificial ordinances mentioned in passages like Num 15), for "the law is not of faith" (Gal 3:12):

John Gill on Verse 12. And the law is not of faith,.... "for though the law is not of faith, yet not of man, but of God; the law does not consist of faith in Christ, nor does it require it, and that a man should live by it upon his righteousness; it is the Gospel that reveals the righteousness of Christ, and directs and encourages men to believe in him and be saved; nor does the law take any notice of a man's faith; nor has it anything to do with a man as a believer, but as a doer, in the point of justification." (a justification which can never be achieved when it is man-dependent--my comment)
Galatians 3 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

Forgiveness never came by obedience of man but by the Lord Jesus' sacrifice!

In Matthew 23:23, Christ said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so God's law is of faith in Christ. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law that was of works with a law that was of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said in 3:31 that our faith upholds God's law, so again God's law is of faith and Paul contrasted God's law with works of the law. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law, while no one is justified before God by works of the law because they are not of faith in God. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13), and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to say that God's law is not of faith is to deny that God is trustworthy.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and in titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what God's law was given to instruct how to do, so God teaching us to obey His law is itself the content of His free gift of salvation, along with paying for the penalty for our sins. Our salvation is from sin and sin is disobedience to God's law (1 John 3:4), so there is no sense in thinking that believing in Christ to be saved from living in disobedience to God's law is not inclusive of being trained by grace to live in obedience to it through faith.
 
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Josheb

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...we cannot maintain an agreeable discussion on anything...
The only one arguing here is you.

Avoidantly, and off-topic.

In your own op.

It looks like you're trolling; posting just to provide the opportunity to post refusals.
I'll have been and still am considering retrying our debates though.
Evidence says otherwise. There is an op-relevant and very valid request sitting unattended in the thread and nothing is preventing a response but you. We could be much further along in discourse and I am not the one in hindrance. For the third time.....,


Would you please tell me which "two dispensations" and the place I might find scripture stating there are two dispensations and those are it?
 
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WordSword

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The only one arguing here is you.

Avoidantly, and off-topic.

In your own op.

It looks like you're trolling; posting just to provide the opportunity to post refusals.

Evidence says otherwise. There is an op-relevant and very valid request sitting unattended in the thread and nothing is preventing a response but you. We could be much further along in discourse and I am not the one in hindrance. For the third time.....,


Would you please tell me which "two dispensations" and the place I might find scripture stating there are two dispensations and those are it.?
Let's not comment on our posts for a while so it doesn't look like we are tolling one another. Don't mean to be offensive, it's just the way it's been looking for us.
 
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Josheb

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....it is difficult to answer questions and comments about the Law when it is not understood that it's Covenant solely applied to the Jews...
Hmmm...

Exodus 12:49
"The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you."

Leviticus 24:22
"You are to have the same standard of law for the foreign resident and the native; for I am the LORD your God."

Numbers 9:14
"If a foreigner dwelling among you wants to observe the Passover to the LORD, he is to do so according to the Passover statute and its ordinances. You are to apply the same statute to both the foreigner and the native of the land."

Numbers 15:15-16
"The assembly is to have the same statute for both you and the foreign resident; it is a permanent statute for the generations to come. You and the foreigner shall be the same before the LORD. The same law and the same ordinance will apply both to you and the foreigner residing with you."

The apostle Paul, writing as a Christian to Christians about Christians living in the covenant with Christ wrote,

Romans 7:12, 14
"So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good... For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."

1 Timothy 1:8
"But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious..."

2 Timothy 3:17-17
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

Presumably, "all scripture" necessarily includes the Law. The NT is quite specific and clear: the law is abrogated only as a means of justification and righteousness (Rom. 3:20-28; Gals 2 & 3), and no one is saved by the law (Jn. 14:6). Not even Jews. Ever.
 
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Josheb

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Let's not comment on our posts for a while so it doesn't look like we are [trolling] one another. Don't mean to be offensive, it's just the way it's been looking for us.
I can evidence what I post. The best way to demonstrate a lack of trolling is to answer and address the request made in post #2?


Please tell me which "two dispensations" and the place I might find scripture stating there are two dispensations and those are it.



Thx
 
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WordSword

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Thank you. While we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same nature and therefore the same instructions for how to walk in the same ways and express the same character traits.
It's okay of course, but we just have different opinions and understanding about the prior and present method of God's Covenants. The Israelite Covenant was between God and man (Jews), with man doing his part and God doing His. The present Covenant (Covenant of Redemption What Is the Covenant of Redemption?) is not between God and man but between God and His Son, and man is the recipient of its blessings (e.g. Heb 13:20).

God's blessings to your Family, and thanks for your input!
 
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Soyeong

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It's okay of course, but we just have different opinions and understanding about the prior and present method of God's Covenants. The Israelite Covenant was between God and man (Jews), with man doing his part and God doing His. The present Covenant (Covenant of Redemption What Is the Covenant of Redemption?) is not between God and man but between God and His Son, and man is the recipient of its blessings (e.g. Heb 13:20).

God's blessings to your Family, and thanks for your input!

I'm not quite sold on the idea of the covenant between the Father and the Son or on that being the present covenant instead of the New Covenant, however, I am in complete agreement with these words:

"His “plan a” is from everlasting to everlasting. It is both perfect and unchangeable as it rests on God’s eternal character, which is among other things, holy, omniscient, and immutable."

Everything rests on God's eternal character. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of God's law, which is because it is God's eternal instructions for how to express His eternal character traits, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23). God's character traits are His ways and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others, so the reason that God gave the Mosaic Law was not to teach the nations about whom the Israelites are, but rather it was given to the Israelites to equip them to be a light and a blessing to the nations through teaching about whom God is. In Deuteronomy 4:5-8, the intended reaction of the nations seeing Israel's obedience to the Mosaic Law was to marvel at how great and wise God is, so again their obedience was about testifying to the nations about whom God is, which means that the Mosaic Law was given as tool to evangelize the nations.

Jesus is the exact expression of God's character (Hebrews 1:3), so he expressed only the divine character traits through his actions and what that looked like was sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, and our sanctification is about being made to be more like Christ in having and expressing the same character traits. So by expressing God's character traits through our actions in obedience to God's law, we are expressing our love for whom God is and are acting as a light and a blessing to the nations through testifying about whom He is. For Gentiles, it is about seeing the light of what God is doing through Israel and about wanting to become part of that and joining in Christ's mission of reconciling the world to God in accordance with following his example of obedience to the Mosaic Law, while rejecting the Mosaic Law is rejecting the divine character of whom God of Israel has revealed Himself to be. The way to act in accordance with God's character traits is based on whom the God of Israel has revealed Himself to be, not on any particular covenant.
 
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WordSword

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I'm not quite sold on the idea of the covenant between the Father and the Son or on that being the present covenant instead of the New Covenant, however, I am in complete agreement with these words:

"His “plan a” is from everlasting to everlasting. It is both perfect and unchangeable as it rests on God’s eternal character, which is among other things, holy, omniscient, and immutable."
What one believes concerning the Covenants does not effect salvation because they are not essential doctrine for being saved, but it addresses spiritual growth and not initial salvation.
 
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What one believes concerning the Covenants does not effect salvation because they are not essential doctrine for being saved, but it addresses spiritual growth and not initial salvation.

The mark is God's character, God's instructions us how to express God's character trait, sin is missing the mark, and sin is the transgression of God's law. Our salvation is from sin, so there is no sense in someone wanting to be saved from living in transgression of God's law if they don't think they are obligated to obey it. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so what sense is there in someone wanting to be saved while considering God's instructions to for how to do those things to be only for Jews?
 
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