Hi packerman,
Well, while I do have some Scottish ancestry, I'm not a true Scotsman. I suppose since I don't agree with your premise, that makes me not a true christian in your book. That's ok with me, since it isn't inclusion in your book that I'm shooting for. I'm not really sure how you have determined that any national leader that would stop abortion would be a great president, but be that as it may, there doesn't really seem to be much effort being made on that front from the national level. Some state's governors and legislatures have made changes, but I don't think anything much has changed on the national level.
This is what Pres Trump did for pro-life:
He is the only president ever to speak at the annual March For Life in person
He blocked funding for Planned Parenthood
He selected two justices on the Supreme Court that have decided in case to be pro-life
He imposed restrictions on federal funding of doing experiments on unborn children
He passed executive orders to protect pro-lifers in the medical field
Donald Trump's Pro-Life Presidency | National Review
With the recognized approval of abortion legalization that we have across the nation, which should also be reflected in our legislature, I doubt that any president will likely change abortion laws. Despite what their personal feelings or understanding of the issue is. Right now, in national polling, the acceptance of abortion either in all cases or some, is running above 70%. Those in the 'some' category have a few exceptions for which they would approve of a legal abortion. Despite excuses and explanations of that group, that still makes the doctor the god of life.
Wrong! See previous link.
Also, I used to stand to protest and pray in front of abortion clinics until the last few years (I am physically not able to do this anymore). I am very well aware the difference a president can make in the abortion fight. Bill Clinton put a restriction on how close we abortion protestors can stand in front of an abortion clinic. Barak Obama forced prolife religious organizations, such as Little Sisters to the Poor, to provide abortion coverage to its employees. The abortion fight goes far beyond whether we can overturn Roe v Wade.
But even if it does not change things, we are still called to join the fight. We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ and give an acount of what we did - whether good or bad. Jesus said that we will be judged on how we treat the least among us. If we allow the least to torn out of their mothers' wombs and did nothing we will hear those words "Depart from me!".
Then we have to depend on whether or not the doctor is honest in his assessment. Back when abortions were illegal we still had abortions.
What if the abolitionists had this defeatist attitude before the Civil War? "We have to depend on whether the slave owners treated their slaves with dignity and respect". No! Slavery is an intrinsic evil. Abortion is an intrinsic evil.
What if the Christians said that they would never be able to change the world, and we just have to depend that the heathen will be good enough to enter heaven.
This defeatist attitude is from the Devil.
Just as today, the use of most recreational drugs is illegal, but we still have recreational drug use. Let's assume that the nation is able to bring about sweeping abortion changes and makes them illegal again. For those with the money to make a difference, wouldn't they just get a doctor to fudge the records a bit?
So what? I protested in front of an abortion clinic for at least five years until I could no longer able. Only once did we convince someone to keep her baby. Even if this is the only baby that we can save it was well worth it.
This is just rationalization on your part, another trick from the Devil. Just because we cannot save all that does not mean we cannot save some.
For me, the issue of the legality of abortion is no different than the issue of the legality of gambling or prostitution or drug use.
Just by using having this attitude shows you are living in darkness. Abortion is the taking the life of an innocent human being. It is murder. Gambling, prostitution, and druge use only involves directly what happens to the user. Abortion is killing another person.
If one, using your definition, is a 'true' christian, they won't have one. Not under any circumstance. If one is a non-believing sinner and has one, what difference will it make on the day of God's judgment? Will they be saved because they didn't get an abortion even though they never believed in God?
True faith means a changed life - a desire to live for God and to please God. If a person says that he has faith in Christ but then is a serial killer. A person who allows a serial killer to continue his killing cannot be a true believer in Christ.
Is God not powerful enough, that if He wants aborted babies saved that His mighty arm can save them?
So since God allowed evil to happen then it cannot be evil? Another Satanic rationalization!
Is not God powerful enough that if He wants He could have prevented the Nazi Holocaust in the killing of Jews? And yet He has not done this! But this done not mean that all those who participated in that will not be condemned.
So, I'm fine with leaving the legality of abortion just as it is. I'd rather expend my efforts, as the not true christian that I am, leading people to the Savior despite whatever sin they may have in their lives. You see, in my understanding, when the people of God fight to change national laws to reflect God's laws, we tend to make the work of God harder because it just riles up those who do not know God and makes them even less willing to hear the truth of God because all they know of Him is that His people are always trying to run our lives.
We must not only have Jesus as Savior but as Lord. When Jesus confronted that woman accused of adultery, He told her "Go and sin no more!". Jesus did not call us just to accept Jesus as Savior. He called us to repent.
You are presenting a sugar-coated gospel, a gospel that conforms the philosophy of this world, if it feels good do it. But Jesus said that the kingdom of God is like as precious pearl of great price that you sell everything to attain it. You, my friend, want the pearl, but you are not willing to give up anything for it.
Friend, assuming the your avatar is of you, then you, like me, are not having many more years in this life. Death will come to both of us sooner than we think. We are nearing the Finish Line. Both of us must constantly examine ourselves to see if we are really in the faith. Time is short and eternity is long. If it turns out that the gospel is as easy as you say, then we can both have a good laugh on the other side. BUT if I am right, and unless you repent, you will face eternity in hell. Are you willing to take that chance?
BTW, it's worth considering that making national laws the law of God didn't even work in Israel. Not even God Himself, speaking directly to the people of Israel through His servant Moses, was able to establish a nation of people who continued to obey His law. If you read the history of Israel, you see that there was this constant running battle between obeying and maintaining God's law and falling off to worship other gods and not obeying His law. God declared through Isaiah, "Hear me, you heavens! Listen, earth! For the LORD has spoken: “I reared children and brought them up, but they have rebelled against me. The ox knows its master, the donkey its owner’s manger, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand.” Woe to the sinful nation, a people whose guilt is great, a brood of evildoers, children given to corruption! They have forsaken the LORD; they have spurned the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him.
It was not because they had national laws that were righteous. It was because they had become complacent, which is the sin you are falling into. They had a nice, sugar-coated religion where they did the bare minimum for God and thought they did enough. Is this not what you are advocating?
They turned their back on the law of God. God command them to have an other god besides the true God. This was a national law. But they ignored it. They worshiped Baal, and offered their children as human sacrifices to this idol. Today, we sacrifice our unborn children to the god of convenience. God punished the Israelites for their sin. And could it be that God is punishing us with the coronavirus?
America's sin is also great, but God doesn't ask us to change the laws of nations. God asks us, through the spreading of the gospel, to help Him change the lives and law of individuals.
If you really feel this then why are you so anti-Trump? If God only asks you to spread the gospel, to help Him change the lives and law of individuals then should you not care what Trump said or did? Should you not just pray for his soul? Go out and preach the gospel to others, and do not worry about our President! But you do not do that. You only expect us pro-lifers to do that. But you open this political thread! How can you do that when you preach to us that we should stay out of politics? Practice what you preach!
So, whether or not abortions are legal or illegal on the books of any nation isn't the issue. If one is a true christian, likely by your definition, they won't accept abortion as an alternative to a pregnancy, even if the mother's life is in jeopardy. Why? Because they believe in a God who, no matter when or how they die on this earth, will raise them up on the day of God's judgment and set their feet on firm and fertile ground where there is no more pain or suffering. But that's because they believe in the God who created both the heavens and the earth and all that is them.
A true Christian is against abortion because it is murder and murder is wrong because every male and female is made in the image of God.
So no, I don't choose a national leader based on his stand on abortion. I prefer to choose a national leader based on his own measure of morality and conscience, of which this particular president seems to have so little.
Again, you have a double standard. You previously wrote:
"If one is a non-believing sinner and has one, what difference will it make on the day of God's judgment? Will they be saved because they didn't get an abortion even though they never believed in God?"
According to you, it matters not whether a person has an abortion, all matters is their faith in Christ. But if that is the case, then it does not matter if Trump has lived up to his morality or conscience! All that matters is that Trump believes in Christ! Right? So since Trump will not be judged by God based on his morality then why should you judge him?
Do you really believe that his stance on abortion glosses over the moral deficiencies of his own life, to God? It seems obvious that it does in your understanding of things, but I'd like you to consider that question as our God might consider it.
For someone who believes in a sugar-coated gospel, you are very judgmental of Trump.
True, he has been morally deficient, personally. But he is not my pastor. He is my President. Not one of his policies goes against the commandments of God. This cannot be said about the Democratic party, the party of death. They have on their platform that they love killing unborn children.
As far as Trump's moral deficiencies are concerned, every night I wake up and pray for his soul. I started to do this about two months ago. Someone who is morally deficient needs our prayers. Are you praying for him? Or are you being like the Pharisees and are just judging him and hating him? Don't you see that we should feel sorry for one with moral deficiencies, not hate him? He is only hurting himself. Unless he repents he would go to hell! But maybe that is something you are hoping for. If so, then that would be another indication that you are not a true Christian.
But I cannot rule out the possibility that the prayers of true Christians have already been answered. He may have accepted Christ as Savior and Lord. He may have been on his knees begging God for forgiveness. He may have repented. Only God knows.
I contend that we should, as believers in the one true and living God, spend less time trying to change national laws. There is not one single example that any of the first disciples wasted a moment of their time trying to do so even though we know that Roman law had its moral problems. Paul actually discusses pretty explicitly that we can expect human law and morals to fall pretty far down as time marches on, in his letter to the Romans. Even in the old covenant with Israel, there is not one single incidence where God asked Israel to work to spread the laws, that He had given them through Moses, to the other nations of the world. I really don't understand this evangelical movement to save the world by changing national laws rather than just doing the things that the first disciples did.
Christians had changed the laws. Look at the history of Christianity. The Christians in the first few centuries changed the laws of the Roman Empire in forbidding gladiators and giving women and equal status with men. Before Christianity, men were allowed to have a harem of wives. Christianity fored the Roman empire to only allow a man to have one wife. Temple prostitution was common before the Christians took over. And in the 1800's the Christians were victorious in freeing the slaves. Abraham Lincoln referred to God in his Emancipation Proclamation.
Evil persists when good people do nothing. This is what happened in Nazi Germany. Too many good people did nothing, until it was too late. Tell me this - are you going to feel the same when this evil of abortion spreads to other areas? What if the government forces us to have forced euthenasia - that everything must be killed at the age of 65? Would that be OK with you? Would still just be concerned about spreading the gospel? Or what if the government decided that we have too many women - and so they pass a law that some women, including your daughters (assuming you have daughters) to be exterminated? Would you care or would you just spread the gospel?
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,...
How do you know that Trump does not now revere Christ as Lord? Where is your gentleness and respect to him?
I say we should adopt more of that act of love that Peter describes for us, than the militancy that our evangelical brethren seems to think honors God.
I do not see any love from you for Trump, only hatred.
For me and my house, abortion is against the law of God, now that I am a child of God. I don't expect that understanding to be the same for those who are not children of God. Again, if you think, "Well, that little baby won't get a chance to grow up to know God." I would respectfully request that you adjust your understanding of the power and righteousness of
And I respectfully request you adjust your understanding of the moral deficiencies in Trump to the power and righteousness of God. I am ashamed to say that I myself have had in mypast more moral deficiencies than Trump was ever accused of doing. Now I often just sit silently in my prayers, amazed on how God has changed me. How can I begrudge this same miracle to anyone, including Trump? I will not even begrudge this miracle to you. I will pray for you.
