A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

claninja said:

The same way Amil's believe he was put in the bottomless pit, but can still the roam the earth to devour someone.



Satan was bound at the 1st advent as scripture states, and thus the satan can no longer accuse the elect and the gospel has spread to the nations.

Matthew 12:29 Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his possessions, unless he first binds the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.


Satan is loosed at the 1st advent as scripture states, and thus satan is able to persecute the church
John 14:30 will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Revelation 2:13 I know where you live, where the throne of Satan sits

Revelation 2:9 And I am aware of the slander of those who falsely claim to be Jews, but are in fact a synagogue of Satan.




The gentiles were accepting the Gospel
Acts 15:14 Simon has told us how God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people to be His own

Gentiles, encouraged by unbelieving Jews, attempted to persecute the church.
Acts 14:2-5 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.a So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands. But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles. When an attempt was made by both Gentiles and Jews, with their rulers, to mistreat them and to stone them,

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You are totally playing with words. The binding and loosing, if they carry any meaning, relate to either the spiritual or physical restraint of Satan. Amils believe this is a literal spiritual restraint allowing the lifting of the deception on the Gentiles and facilitating the Gospel expanse in this current intra-Advent period. There is no difficulty with Satan walking about as a roaring lion, as he is not physically restrained. You are trying to employ a Premil argument to negate Amil, when it doesn't work. The loosing speaks about a time when the aforementioned restraint is actually lifted. This occurs before the second coming. The loosing happens after the binding, not during, as you are trying to argue. You are trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

Satan is a spiritual being that is not governed by gravity or limited to space. He does not have to be incarcerated in a physical geographical prison. The abyss is not a geographical place but a condition of restraint. Please remember demons are spirits. He was injured at the cross, his head is now bruised. His movement is impaired. He is incapacitated.

If the binding and loosing describes the same matter (namely spiritual realties), as they do, if being in the bottomless pit and released from the bottomless pit describes the same matter (namely spiritual realties), if the lifting of the deception and the restoration of the deception describes the same matter (namely spiritual realties), as they do, then you whole argument falls apart. It is frankly nonsensical, like your other neo-Full Preterist views.

Scripture shows the abyss being opened near the end whereupon Satan and his demons are released from their spiritual restraint (Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:7). This parallels with the beast also rising from the abyss (Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8). This corresponds with the restraint being taken off the mystery of iniquity in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 before Christ’s return.

Daniel 7:9-11, 2 Thessalonians 2:8 and Revelation 19:19-20 show the beast being obliterated at the second coming. Isaiah 26:19-27:1 and Revelation 20:10–14 show this to be the same time when Satan is finally destroyed.

This all proves that Revelation 20 runs from Christ’s first resurrection till the second coming.

DavidPT said:

I can't claim the same experience, yet I have encountered many Amils since at least 2009 or so, or maybe even earlier. None of them I encountered ever claimed the millennium was from the first coming to the 2nd coming. Most of them claimed it was from the time of the cross, or from the time of the ascension, depending on which Amil I was conversing with at the time, until satan's little season, where at the end of satan's little season the 2nd coming occurs. Which then led to me asking them how do Amils know when the millennium is over and that satan's little season has begun? Most of them pointed to chapters such as 2 Thessalonians 2, Revelation 13, etc.

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I agree!

While I do admit that it appears to be logical that 2 Thessalonians 2 can fit satan's little season after the thousand years, Revelation 20:4 contradicts that possibility since it places the time of the 42 month reign of the beast in the past and already fulfilled before satan is ever loosed from the pit. This presents a major problem for Amil, the fact some events in 2 Thessalonians 2 are meaning during this same 42 month reign in Revelation 13. These same Amils do not deny this connection between some of the events in 2 Thessalonians 2 and the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13. Yet they still insist the thousand years and satan's little season precede the 2nd coming, regardless that Revelation 20:4 undeniably places the time of the 42 month reign of the beast as already fulfilled and in the past before satan is ever loosed from the pit. Therefore 2 Thessalonians 2 can't fit during satan's little season after all, because the 42 month reign of the beast can't fit during satan's little season, the latter not according to me, but according to Revelation 20:4.

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There is only a contradiction if Revelation is chronological. But the reality is, it is not. It describes 7 different recaps pertaining to the intra-Advent. It is basically different camera views of the same game.

Davy said:

The future time of Christ's reign with His elect is inferred in the 1 Cor.15 verses I showed you regarding that Christ must first reign over ALL His enemies, their being made His footstool, before that 'end' will come with His delivering up the kingdom to The Father. Other Scripture specifically about that future reign over the wicked I showed you, and that wasn't all the Scripture examples that exist, but it was certainly enough to show Christ's time of future reign over His enemies, even at the feet of His elect.

Now if you want to flat 'deny' that Scripture proof, then you reveal a strong problem, because it means you are going directly against His written Word in order to serve a tradition of men instead.

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I have suitably exegeted these passages and showed you that there is no recognition of, or allowance for, a future millennium in the text. You rather respond it is "inferred," whatever that means. Inferred by who? Inferred by what? Not the text, but by what you have been taught. But the text itself totally disallows it. It shows us that the coming of Christ is the end. That is when all rule and authority is finally and eternally put down.

Premils are faced with an unsurmountable obstacle here: Scripture only recognizes time up until Christ’s coming, and then eternity after this. There is no space or opportunity for the semi-glorious/semi-corrupt bipolar age that they anticipate. The age to come has eternity written all over it. It is not temporal. It is not sinful. It does not involve earthly sensual pleasures.

I also gave you other Scripture to corroborate the fact that Christ is reigning now, but as is your pattern, you ignored that. Please address these clear passages, instead of dismissing them. This is the only way Premil exists, it has to avoid the obvious as if it is not in the inspired text.

Davy said:

You have answered nothing regarding what I showed you!

The 1 Cor.15:24, 25, and 28 verses I showed you specially contain a CONDITION to be met first before... Jesus will deliver up the kingdom to The Father, and it involves His future reign over ALL His enemies.

I even showed you the Revelation 3:9 Scripture about the "synagogue of Satan" bowing at the feet of Christ's elect, which has never... to this day happened yet!

So if you want to DENY those Scriptures as written like I showed, fine, that's your choice. But you're not going to hide that fact with play acting as if you are confused about what I said.

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You impose what you have been taught on the text where it does not belong. Repeated Scripture shows that Christ is reigning NOW! He is reigning upon high NOW! He is King! He is Lord. All power and authority belongs to Him NOW. Your false teaching causes you to dethrone Christ from His sovereign place reigning over His enemies today.

Jesus testified in Matthew 28:18, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”

You don't seem to understand the term "right hand of power." It means: He carries the Father's divine authority. He is currently enthroned. He testified after His resurrection: “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” This is Sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

How much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth.” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?

This proves that Christ has already come and now exercises all power and authority today over all mankind. It means: He carries the Father's divine authority. He is currently enthroned. This is Sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne as God and upon David's throne as Messiah. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

John says in Revelation 3:7, “These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath (present active particle) the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”

He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might. It says, “he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.” This speaks of spiritual power. The key allows Christ to sovereignly open and shut in a way that no man can thwart or override.

Philippians 2:9-11 says, “wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”

Heaven’s authority is bestowed upon Christ. He is God! Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Messiah and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as God.

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Saviour and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as Lord.

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Without a doubt Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.

1 Timothy 6:13-16 says, “I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate (dunastes or ruler, great authority or mighty), the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”

He is going to reveal to mankind, time, and to the natural, what He is now in heaven, the invisible realm and in eternity. He "is (indeed) the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords.”

This all confirms my previous contention after years of debating this matter in my 13 major reasons why I abandoned the Premil doctrine: Premil is constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god, Amil has a small devil and a BIG God. In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premils are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Amil, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Amils are always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Amil sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Amil Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Saviour.

If Christ is not already King of kings, then neither is He already Lord of lords. But Revelation 17:14 tell us: "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

This doesn't say He will eventually become Lord of lords and King of kings. It rather says that He is already that.

Davy said:

I don't impose... anything on the Scriptures of God's Word. I know how to follow the simplicity of what is written. You do not! or you do not WANT to do the same!

How fast you just threw... that 1 Cor.15:23-28 Scripture out, and then began espousing ideas totally OUTSIDE its context. That is what charlatans do, like a slip of the hand.

And now, since you CANNOT interpret that Scripture from Apostle Paul, (or you don't want to because it goes against the Amill ideas), you have no choice but to resort to mouthing and spewing falsehoods, anything... to keep from addressing the Scriptures I showed you.

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Where is your imaginary future millennium? Nowhere! You have nothing. You explain away the rest of Scripture with your faulty opinion of Rev 20. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 forbids Premil. Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:20-23, Hebrews 2:6-11, Revelation 3:7, Philippians 2:9-11, Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15, 1 Peter 3:22, 1 Timothy 6:13-16, Revelation 17:14 which you ignore forbids Premil.

Davy said:

I'm still waiting for you to address the following Scriptures as written. And it was YOU that first threw them out (1 Cor.15) without covering their actual subject in context...

1 Cor 15:24-25
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even The Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
KJV

1 Cor 15:28
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him That put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV


Just those 3 Scripture examples is well enough proof from God's Word that Christ's future reign over His enemies shows the "thousand years" of Rev.20 is literal, and also begins at His return.

Never... to this day, has Christ's enemies of the "synagogue of Satan" bowed in worship at the feet of Christ's elect like Jesus said He will make them do. That means emphatically... it is for the future, at His return when that will happen! That further proves what Apostle Paul said there in 1 Cor.15 that Christ MUST reign over all His enemies, their being made His footstool, before the END will come. And it shows what timing... that must be, i.e., starting at Christ's LITERAL return.

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I already addressed this in #333 and 348, but as is your usual, you totally avoided each point. Please address the highlighted part above and tell me whether you accept God "hath put’ (aorist active indicative) all things under his (Jesus) feet."

When God says "But now we see not yet all things put under him" He was simply saying: there are still leaders and kingdoms to fall, but they are all on borrowed time. It is only a matter before each earthly kingdom crumbles. There are still enemies to be born and subjugated. But the sovereign king reigns unchallenged in His power and authority ruling over all creation (seen and unseen) and over all things (good and evil). What He causes happens, what He allows happens. Nothing more and nothing less. This is proof that Christ is indeed reigning now over all (including His enemies).

Davy said:

I'm still waiting for you to address the following Scriptures as written. And it was YOU that first threw them out (1 Cor.15) without covering their actual subject in context...

1 Cor 15:24-25
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even The Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
KJV

1 Cor 15:28
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him That put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV


Just those 3 Scripture examples is well enough proof from God's Word that Christ's future reign over His enemies shows the "thousand years" of Rev.20 is literal, and also begins at His return.

Never... to this day, has Christ's enemies of the "synagogue of Satan" bowed in worship at the feet of Christ's elect like Jesus said He will make them do. That means emphatically... it is for the future, at His return when that will happen! That further proves what Apostle Paul said there in 1 Cor.15 that Christ MUST reign over all His enemies, their being made His footstool, before the END will come. And it shows what timing... that must be, i.e., starting at Christ's LITERAL return.

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Exactly! The reign over His enemies stops when He comes in majesty and glory because He is going to destroy them and banish them into the Lake of Fire. I have showed you multiple Scripture including 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 that shows that He is currently reigning over His enemies now. You refuse to accept them because they expose your false doctrine.

DavidPT said:

I totally agree with your post, yet you are taking all of the pleasure out of this for some. That passage you brought up in Revelation 3:9, I can't recall how many times I have noted many professed Christians having used that passage against the Jews in an inflammatory manner. Speaking for myself, I then asked them, what about this part though, the part you brought up about them bowing at the feet of the elect at some point? None of them cared to discuss that part. None of them had an answer for that part. I wonder why, though?

Isn't Jesus the speaker in that verse? And did not Jesus say He will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that He has loved thee? Does that sound like anything that has ever happened yet? According to Amil theology, all of these in Revelation 3:9 will be cast into the LOF the same day Christ returns. And if that is true that makes Jesus a false prophet for claiming He's going to make someone do what He never actually makes them do.

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Revelation 3:9 simply tells us that the unbelieving natural Jews in Philadelphia would be subject to the spiritual authority of the NT Church. Revelation 3:9 has nothing to do with the second coming. Please stop misrepresenting Amil to support your beliefs.

In Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 Christ succinctly describes the Jews that rejects Him and what He achieved at the cross as those who “say they are Jews, and are not.” What he is saying is: they are not real Jews. The Philadelphia Church, which would have been overwhelmingly Gentile, was here promised that God would cause the unbelieving Jews to come and worship at their feet. The Lord again exposed the delusion that did beguile (and does beguile) the natural Christ-rejecting Jews “which say they are Jews” but “are not, but do lie.” The true Jew today is a believer in Yahweh that is spiritually circumcised in heart, not merely physically circumcised.

Davy said:

Those posts don't address what I showed from 1 Cor.15, you only danced around the "when" condition Paul gave in the verses I quoted, and you then immediately went out of context with your faulty reasoning in trying to support the Amill position with other Scripture. Same thing in your post 348.

1 Cor 15:24-25
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even The Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
KJV

1 Cor 15:28
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him That put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV

Even when Hebrews 2 says, "But now we see not yet all things put under Him," that should have confirmed what Paul said in 1 Cor.15 about the "when", AND the timing for what Jesus showed in Rev.3:9.

Apostle Peter showed that Satan like a roaring lion still walks about seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). Does that mean today still, not all enemies have been put under Christ's feet yet? Yes, of course it does, even your OWN words on that confirms that point. And that ought to be enough to show you that the time... when ALL Christ's enemies will be made His footstool is NOT during this present world!

The Rev.3:9 example is special, because it reveals there is NO WAY anyone can say Jesus is reigning over ALL His enemies already. There is a difference between His Power and Authority to reign over all His enemies, and when He declared He will actually perform it. Those of the "synagogue of Satan" bowing at the feet of His elect is impossible to apply for this present world time.

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It is in the presence tense. He is reigning now. You try and make it future tense, but it will never say that!

I and others have presented multiple Scriptures that refute your rejection of Christ's kingship, His rule, His power and His glory. Your fight is with the Book. You explain away the rest of Scripture with your faulty opinion of Rev 20. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 forbids Premil. Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:20-23, Hebrews 2:6-11, Revelation 3:7, Philippians 2:9-11, Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15, 1 Peter 3:22, 1 Timothy 6:13-16, Revelation 17:14 which you ignore forbids Premil.

Ephesians 1:17-23: “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness (megethos or magnificence) of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”

The resurrection is constantly presented in Scripture as the moment Christ secured all power and authority over all creation, including His enemies. It is at the place of majesty that He now reigns in unchallenged power and glory.

Scripture constantly depicts the magnificence, greatness and mighty power of Christ sitting at the right hand of Majesty ruling at the place of sovereign authority upon high. He holds all heaven's power. He is King of kings. He is Lord of lords. Hebrews 1:1-3 confirms: “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty (megalosune) on high."

The word “Majesty” is interpreted from the Greek word megalosune, meaning greatness, i.e. (figuratively) divinity (often God himself). It speaks of glory, mighty power, magnificence and splendour. The phrase “being the brightness of his glory” literally reads “He is the radiance of his glory.”

Christ is no mere impotent King-in-waiting. He is not a want-to-be king. He is no ordinary powerless Prince. We see this in Matthew 28:18, where, after His resurrection, He victoriously declared, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”

This is Sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority. All heaven’s authority was deposited upon Christ through the triumph of Calvary where He triumphantly procured absolute victory over death, hell, sin, Satan and every enemy. Christ thus assumed the heavenly throne in perfect fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy and therefore reigns as Sovereign king until His last enemy is made His footstool.

Peter recognizes this in Acts 2:33, saying, “Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”

Again, in Acts 5:30-31, he teaches: “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”

He has been “exalted” to the highest place and enjoys unchallenged authority now and for all eternity. Christ exercises divine kingship at the place of ultimate omnipotence as God and as Messiah. As God, Christ holds all power and authority in heaven and on earth, reigning over all creation. But as man He reigns over all His new creation (true spiritual Israel). His deity was simply veiled in a human body during His earthly ministry.

Hebrews 8:1 also says: "We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty (megalosune) in the heavens."

This phrase is synonymous with sitting at "the right hand of the power of God" (Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62 and Luke 22:69). The “right hand” is therefore the special place of honour and power. Christ now enjoys full participation in God's glory in His lofty seat. Of course, repeated Scripture shows us that this means He carries all power. In fact, there is nothing that is not under His authority. The majesty that He possesses is real and ongoing. In a biblical sense, being at “the right hand of the Majesty” or “the right hand of the power of God” means to be the one upon whom majesty, power and authority rests and through whom it operates.