A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

pescador · Apr 2, 2020

Andrewn said:
Congratulation! You've earned a spot in the abyss by ignoring my question and the fact that I answered you about Rev 12 in a previous thread .

But you can still roam the earth. You can be in 2 places at the same time .

Are you seriously judging someone who disagrees with you, claiming that you have the power to send them "to the abyss"? REALLY??

DavidPT · Apr 2, 2020

Andrewn said:
Congratulation! You've earned a spot in the abyss by ignoring my question and the fact that I answered you about Rev 12 in a previous thread .

But you can still roam the earth. You can be in 2 places at the same time .

One thing you are correct about though, so my bad, I did neglect to answer what you asked. I will try and do that sometime soon.

Andrewn · Apr 2, 2020

pescador said:
Are you seriously judging someone who disagrees with you, claiming that you have the power to send them "to the abyss"? REALLY??

A figure of speech is a word or phrase used in a non-literal sense for rhetorical or vivid effect. I see that you're married. Have you ever been in "the dog house?" :tutu:

DavidPT · Apr 2, 2020

pescador said:
Are you seriously judging someone who disagrees with you, claiming that you have the power to send them "to the abyss"? REALLY??

There's a lot of people I disagree with, apparently. Yet I would never wish such a fate on any of them, jokingly or otherwise. But that's me. The way I look at it, we're all on the same team here, regardless that we don't always agree with each other at all times. Assuming Amil is the correct position, does that mean all Premils deserve to burn in hell because they got this wrong? Assuming Premil is the correct position, does that mean all Amils deserve to burn in hell because they got this wrong? Speaking for myself I would have to answer no to each of those questions. But again, that's me, I can't speak for others, though.

sovereigngrace · Apr 2, 2020

DavidPT said:
I'm not saying you are saying satan's time in the pit can be found in Revelation 12. And that's actually part of the problem since Amils should be saying that if they are correct about when satan is in the pit.

You are not grasping my point. My point is, Revelation 12 covers the NT church era, the same era Amils claim satan is in the pit. After what verse in Revelation 12 should one insert the beginning of satan's binding? After what verse in Revelation 12 should one insert the end of satan's binding? Logically, how can satan's binding not be in Revelation 12 if Revelation 12 is covering the same 2000 years Amils claim satan is in the pit?

If Amils are correct about satan's time in the pit is parallelling the NT church age, yet neglecting to show this in Revelation 12, doesn't that indicate Amils are not correct to begin with? Because if they are correct, and the fact Revelation 12 clearly covers the entire NT church era, Amils should easily without much effort, show after what verse in Revelation 12 one should insert the beginning of satan's binding. And after what verse in Revelation 12 should one insert the end of satan's binding.

Let's reduce Revelation 12 to the following verses. All the verses before verse 9, satan apparently still had access to heaven. I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone would argue that he was bound in the pit while he still had access to heaven.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Verse 9 fits with verse 12-17, like such.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If satan's 2000 years in the pit fit in this age before the 2nd coming, the above is the only place in Revelation 12 it can possibly fit. Where do you propose in the block of text above that the beginning of satan's 2000 years in the pit initially begin? Where do you propose in the block of text above that the end of satan's 2000 years in the pit initially end?

If you can't show any of that in this block of text, keep in mind, everything that precedes this block of text, satan would still have access to heaven. If you are unable to show in the block of text above, where the beginning of satan's 2000 years in the pit initially begins, and where it intially ends, that only leaves you two options.

Either you have to conclude satan is in the pit while he still had access to heaven. Or you have to admit that you can't actually prove Amil after all, because if you could, you would be able to show satan's 2000 year in the pit with the block of text above. So, where in the block of text above does it ever depict satan locked up in the pit? But if you can't do that or unwilling to do that, I will unfortunately have to take that to mean you can't actually prove Amil after all, because if you could, you would be able to show satan's 2000 year in the pit with the block of text above.

The following is only to illustrate a point.

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Regardless what these locusts are, would anyone think that while they are in the pit until someone opens it, that they are able to do the things they do outside of the pit while they are still locked up in the pit? I don't think any reasonable person would think that. The same has to be true of satan when he is locked up in the pit. He literally can't be roaming around the earth while locked up in the pit any more than these locusts in Revelation 9 can while they are locked inside the pit. If nothing else, Revelation 9 proves this pit is a real place, a prison of sorts for spirits, apparently.

Revelation 12 places the defeat of Satan at the resurrection/ascension, thus refuting your argument: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Previous to Satan's eviction, God was Israel's God, not the Gentiles God. Satan ruled the nations. But through this casting out of Satan, after man's penalty had been paid in full, he no longer had anything to accuse the elect over. It was indeed finished! The powerful spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles lifting the deception that kept them bound. Satan was now bound. The boot was on the other foot. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted. The means by which God lifts deception is the preaching of the Word of God. This has now been successfully ongoing throughout the nations for 2000 years.

Satan's defeat came after the resurrection. Here is when he got his eviction notice, and here is "when" salvation came to the "whole world" - not just one nation Israel. The deception enveloping the Gentiles was lifted - praise God. They are now without excuse, just like those in the OT that rejected salvation. Salvation has now come to the nations. But Satan had to first be cast down. He had to be defeated. Christ’s life, death and resurrection safely secured that. As a result the Church becomes a militant overcoming organism.

Christ predicted shortly before He destroyed the power of Satan at the cross, in John 12:30-33: “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”

Christ’s death, burial and resurrection was the decisive blow against Satan has already been struck. This passage plainly shows the powerful result of Calvary and the deep impact it had upon Satan. It shows us that Satan is now under Christ’s feet and is now subject to His Sovereign will. Satan and his minions are barred from heaven. They have been banished after they were defeated 2,000 years ago.

Before being cast out of heaven through Christ’s victorious assault on his kingdom the devil had access to both heaven and earth. He had the ability to come before God to accuse the brethren of their sins. When he was cast down he no longer had access to heaven but only to earth.

Revelation 9:1-5 correlates. It gives us an insight into the bottomless pit prior to the return of the Lord (the last trumpet). In fact the scene appears at the time of the 5th trumpet (obviously before the last trump): “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.”

Here we have the opening of the abyss with a key before the Second Coming. Obviously, the place was locked up previously so that those inside couldn’t leave. Now please consider: this is evidence that demons are in the pit before the second Coming, but are released for a season at the end to do their damage.

Before proceeding any further, we should carefully note a few things here which most commentators seem to overlook. Firstly, this “star” descended “from heaven unto the earth.” Secondly, having settled on “the earth” the “star” gained direct rule and authority over the abyss. Regardless of one’s theological position, we must accept that the abyss (however we understand it) is located on earth.

Revelation 9:10-11 significantly adds: “they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

Revelation 9 describes an abyss that is full of wicked spirits that are restrained, but will be released prior to the Second Coming for a short season. This is something Premils choose to overlook. The abyss is inhabited now with Satan's minions. They had a king over them (Abaddon / Apollyon), a ruler who marshalled their hosts. This is Satan - the only king in the kingdom of darkness.

Who is this king (the destroyer) that CURRENTLY reigns over “the bottomless pit” or abyss? It can be none other than Satan. There is no doubt that Abaddon / Apollyon is referring to the demonic realm. Therefore, who is the king that rules over that realm? Satan!!!

Strong’s Concordance corroborates this viewpoint describing Apollyon (623) as “a destroyer (i.e. Satan).” Moreover, when we examine the root Greek word apollumi (Strong’s 622) we find it means “to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively.” The word is variously translated destroy, die, lose, mar, perish in the King James Version. There can be little doubt that Apollyon is referring to the devil. Time after time in Scripture we see Satan being described in such a destructive way. The name and characteristics of this being seem to identify him with that great enemy of the Church – the devil.

The spiritual restrains will be released on Satan and the beast antichrist system at the end to curtail the global spread of the Gospel. At the end of the thousand years, Satan will be loosed for a short time. The one who "letteth," or restrains, will be taken out of the way (2 Thess 2:7). This enables Satan to establish his world-kingdom under antichrist. The result is the final, all-out assault upon the true church and her living, faithful members. The "beloved city" represents the church. The "saints" are all those whom the Spirit of Christ has sanctified through faith in Christ.

sovereigngrace · Apr 2, 2020

Davy said:
That the Amil position is clearly defunct should be obvious, because at the end of the "thousand years", death and hell are destroyed in the lake of fire, as written. So if the thousand years were first, it would make "satan's little season...the 2nd coming," impossible to exist.

Not so! Death is destroyed at the second coming.

Paul shows that Christ’s return spells the termination of death and rebellion in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, saying: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ the kingdom to God, even the Father; when ‘he shall have put down’ (aorist active subjunctive) all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For ‘he hath put’ all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be (hupotageé) subdued (or subordinated) unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”

Death is destroyed at the second coming, the time here denoted as “the end.” As Jesus comes and rescues ‘the just’ in the twinkling of an eye He also destroys ‘the unjust’. This passage is distinctly a description of the end. Those “in Adam all die.” The second coming is shown to be termination of all rebellion. It is the time “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." But equally, “in Christ shall all be made alive.” This is the time “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father.” It is clear that everything is tied up at the end (“His Coming”).

The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.

The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish.

This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.

After telling us that Christ’s Coming sees the termination of the wicked and their evil operations, the writer tells us that Christ’s reign over His enemies must continue until this climactic point. Whilst “all power” is now assuredly given unto Christ “in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18) through His life, death and resurrection, and whilst through this victorious work “he hath put all things under his feet” in a sovereign manner, we have not yet seen the final subduing of wickedness.

God’s purpose is that the entire creation will be regenerated. That is, the whole universe will be freed from the curse of corruption and degeneration. In intent is to bring a whole new order when He returns that will be marked by righteousness and eternality. A new regenerated creation will welcome a freshly perfected redeemed people. We are therefore looking at universal regeneration.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (phthora or decay) inherit incorruption (aphthrsia or unending existence). Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

This passage closely mirrors Romans 8, confirming that the last enemy is demolished at “the last trump.” Corruption finds it end when Christ comes in all His glory. This corroborates what Paul was teaching about “the bondage of corruption” being terminated when the elect are redeemed at Christ’s appearing. No one can deny the correlation between the glorification of the elect and the glorification of the earth. God’s people cannot populate an incorrupt earth. They need their bodies suitably attired in perfection to be able to enjoy that eternal state.

In Luke 20:34-36 Jesus basically compares the temporal imperfect state of this present age/world to the glory of the age/world to come. Jesus says: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy (or kataxioō) to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

This couldn’t be any clearer.

Those that are worthy to obtain the age to come are not mortals and not sinners; they are the glorified saints – who are said to never die. The Lord makes it clear “they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels.”

It is “the children of God” alone that are glorified and therefore past from life unto death. It is “they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (or aion or age).” This privileged group no longer engage in temporal earthly relationships “Neither can they die any more.” First, we see it is only the elect that are worthy of inheriting the age to come, secondly, according to Jesus, death is not possible in the next age (i.e., “that age”). This favoured group cannot die because they possess eternal glorified bodies. This totally negates the Premil paradigm.

We cannot overlook the clear teaching that one must be “accounted worthy to obtain” the “world (or age)” to come. This is a very definite precondition for entering the new earth. That worthiness is obviously found in Christ. All that are saved when the Master returns will immediately be glorified, thus perfectly qualifying them to inhabit the newly regenerated earth. We see this mentioned in this reading. It is only those deemed fully justified that make it. There is only a certain type of person therefore that Christ counts worthy to “obtain” or tugchano meaning ‘to attain or secure an object or end’. It is a personal relation with Christ. There is no other ticket into the eternal state.

The children of the wicked one are not worthy to populate the new regenerated earth. As we have highlighted, the phrase “to obtain that world” is taken from the single Greek word kataxioo which means ‘to deem entirely deserving’. It plainly requires special merit to inherit the age to come.

Whilst the “children of this age marry, and are given in marriage” (according to Christ in Luke 20:34-36), Jesus presents the future age as a glorified place that is earned by those alone who are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” These people are shown to be the glorified saints alone. This could never refer to the unsaved, mortals of any kind, or the nations that come against Jerusalem as some suggest. These would all obviously eventually die. Such people are expressly barred from the age to come. This is speaking about immortal glorified believers only.

Premil has countless heathens populating the new earth in their corrupt mortal bodies. They have all the vice of our day prospering in their millennial age. They have all the sin and debauchery and rebellion of our day continuing in that day. Contrary to what Jesus says, Premil has millennial mortals continuing to “marry, and are given in marriage” – just like “the children of this age.” They render millions of unregenerate unsaved worthy to inherit the new earth. They are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” However, the words of Christ negate such a belief.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of fiery regeneration.

This is talking about the first corrupt earth being removed and replaced with a new perfect earth. The former corruption has been removed. Perfection has finally arrived. The New Jerusalem envelops the perfected earth. The former things have passed away. You paint it as more of the same. This reading describes the occasion that witnesses the termination of sin / sickness / suffering / death / all decay.

Revelation 22:3 tells us that when the new heavens and new earth arrive: “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 and Revelation 22:3 describe the perfect conditions that are introduced when Jesus Christ returns. No one with any sanity could say that such a state exists today. It doesn’t! This only accompanies the glorification of this sin-cursed world, because justice has finally been executed upon sin. It is then and only then that there will be:

· No more dying.
· No more crying.
· No more pain.
· No more sorrow.
· No more curse.

While the elect of God finally enters into eternal bless, the wicked correspondingly experience eternal torment. They are shown to be banished into everlasting punishment.

The second coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old, temporal, sinful and corrupt. His return introduces the beginning of all things new, eternal, righteous and God-glorifying.

DavidPT · Apr 2, 2020

Andrewn said:
So, how do you interpret the verses in post #304, which show that satan has been bound?

Unlike some around here, not meaning you though, I don't already have an arsenal of copy and pastes at my disposal that I can just paste into these discussions where I feel they might fit what is being discussed. So it takes me awhile to formulate a response sometimes. For the time being I will at least take on Matthew 12:22-29 first. Maybe the other ones later---I don't know yet.

Matthew 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

It doesn't really matter how I might interpret this, what matters is, does anything here support the binding of satan in Revelation 20?

The first thing to note, Amils typically conclude satan was bound at the cross, or at least soon after. In the above account all of these things were already being practiced while Jesus was still alive and hadn't even went to the cross yet. How can one apply the above to a future time when it was already being applied to the present time?

Look at verse 22----Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb. Does that mean all people who are blind, that they are automatically deceived? Keeping in mind, the reason for the binding in Revelation 20 is so that satan can no longer deceive the nations while he is in the pit. But why bring Revelation 20:1-3 into Matthew 12:22-29 to begin with when the latter is meaning prior to the former, regardless when the former actually happens?

Let's look at verse 29. How would that verse be applicable during satan's little season when he is no longer bound but is loosed instead, assuming his little season occurs in this age prior to the 2nd coming? Not only that, when satan is bound a thousand years, how would verse 29 be applicable to that time as well? How can that not be an overkill, to continually bind someone that is already bound, assuming satan is bound in this age prior to the 2nd coming?

These things alone have me scratching my head wondering why Amils think anything in Matthew 12:22-29 supports anything in Revelation 20:1-3.

Christian Gedge · Apr 2, 2020

Andrewn said:
A figure of speech is a word or phrase used in a non-literal sense for rhetorical or vivid effect. I see that you're married. Have you ever been in "the dog house?"

Yes. And I’ve been “down the creek without a paddle” too.

Davy · Apr 3, 2020

DavidPT said:
I'm not seeing how that might cause a problem? Perhaps you can expand further, maybe then I will be able to see what you are meaning?

In the meantime, what I do see as a problem for Amils, the 42 month reign of the beast has to be followed by the 2nd coming. That means, in order for Amil to be the correct position, this 42 month reign of the beast has to occur during satan's little season after the thousand years. Totally impossible according to Revelation 20:4. There are clearly already those being martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast before satan is ever loosed from the pit. And since it's illogical that they are martyred by the beast during the thousand years while satan is in the pit, the only other option is, they are martyred before the thousand years even begin. Therefore placing the time of the 42 month reign of the beast prior to the beginning of the thousand years, and not after the thousand years where Amils need it to fit in order for their position to work. Premil is the only position this can work with. How non Premils cannot see that, that is beyond me?

No, the 42 months that the "dragon" (Satan) of Revelation 13:4-8 reigns on earth is BEFORE Christ's return. Anyone with common sense well knows that since we are told in God's Word that Christ comes to defeat that dragon and his kingdom, that means Christ's return is AFTER that dragon's reign.

2 Thess 2:8-9
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
KJV

Here's another version of that event of the dragon's defeat at Christ's future return...

Dan 7:25-27
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, Whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.
KJV

Davy · Apr 3, 2020

DavidPT said:
In the meantime, what I do see as a problem for Amils, the 42 month reign of the beast has to be followed by the 2nd coming. That means, in order for Amil to be the correct position, this 42 month reign of the beast has to occur during satan's little season after the thousand years. Totally impossible according to Revelation 20:4. There are clearly already those being martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast before satan is ever loosed from the pit. And since it's illogical that they are martyred by the beast during the thousand years while satan is in the pit, the only other option is, they are martyred before the thousand years even begin. Therefore placing the time of the 42 month reign of the beast prior to the beginning of the thousand years, and not after the thousand years where Amils need it to fit in order for their position to work. Premil is the only position this can work with. How non Premils cannot see that, that is beyond me?

I agree, how Amils can't see that it's impossible for the dragon's 42 months reign to be after Christ's return shows an agenda of man, and not a keeping of The Word of God.

One of the requirements for Jesus putting the open door before His elect was with their keeping His Word (Rev.3). Just as with the Gnostic heresy in the 2nd century A.D., the Amill heresy began about that time also.

Davy · Apr 3, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Not so! Death is destroyed at the second coming.

Not what God's Word shows at all.

Paul shows that Christ’s return spells the termination of death and rebellion in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, saying: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ the kingdom to God, even the Father; when ‘he shall have put down’ (aorist active subjunctive) all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For ‘he hath put’ all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be (hupotageé) subdued (or subordinated) unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”

Your adherence to the Amill doctrine has blinded you from what all Paul said there...

1 Cor 15:24-25
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even The Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
KJV

1 Cor 15:28
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him That put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

The "end" comes "when"... Christ has put ALL ENEMIES under His feet. Not just some, but ALL His enemies, for ALL knees will bow to Him, remember? Because that "when" is a CONDITION, it means that MUST happen first, before He will deliver up the kingdom to The Father. So you cannot just slap those 1 Cor.15:23-28 verses into an Amill position when those verses don't support it. What Paul showed there is the same time events of Rev.20 about Christ's future Millennial reign over the wicked starting at His 2nd coming.

Death is destroyed at the second coming, the time here denoted as “the end.” As Jesus comes and rescues ‘the just’ in the twinkling of an eye He also destroys ‘the unjust’. This passage is distinctly a description of the end. Those “in Adam all die.” The second coming is shown to be termination of all rebellion. It is the time “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." But equally, “in Christ shall all be made alive.” This is the time “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father.” It is clear that everything is tied up at the end (“His Coming”).

No, death is not destroyed at Christ's second coming. Rev.20 tells us about the "second death" of the casting into the "lake of fire" AFTER the "thousand years" mentioned there. We are told death and hell are cast into that "lake of fire" AFTER the "thousand years". Because the Amill position has that backwards, it reveals that position is an agenda of men, and not The Word of God.

The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.

The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish.

This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.

I can see you've never understood basic control statements like IF, Then, Else. Those are conditional statements. 'When' is Paul's conditional statement, a conditional statement for when Christ puts all His enemies under His feet. That means we have to look for 'when' that is to happen. It is to happen DURING the "thousand years" that begins at His coming!

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV

Jesus speaking to His elect Church of Philadelphia. That has NEVER happened yet. Nor will it happen until Jesus returns. Notice those wicked "synagogue of Satan" are NOT DESTROYED yet then. Instead, Jesus will make those come to worship Him at the feet of His elect!

So when... will His elect be in power over those of the "synagogue of Satan", when they bow at His elect's feet? At the START of Jesus' return. He promised His elect will reign with Him over the nations with "a rod of iron" (Psalms 2; Revelation 2:25-27). Even with Revelation 19:11-15 we are shown Jesus' 2nd coming to rule over the nations with that "rod of iron". That rod is not upon His Church! It is upon the rebellious, His ENEMIES, AFTER His return. That... is what the future "thousand years" of Rev.20 is for!

claninja · Apr 3, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The burden of proof is with you to prove this is typical Amil teaching. Give me your quotes from your authorities that taught this. I have never heard of this before, and have read over 300 books on the matter. I will not hold my breath.

The Millennial Kingdom by John Walvoord in regards to Amillinnialsim:

"The present age is between the first and second comings is the fulfillment of the millennium. Its adherents are divided on whether the millennium is being fulfilled now on earth (Augustine) or whether it is being fulfilled by the saints in heaven (Kliefoth)".

From the Handbook of Evangelical Theology by Robert Lightner quoting from J.G. Vos:

"Amillennialism teaches that there will be a parallel and contemporaneous development of good and evil-God's kingdom and satan's kingdom-in this world, which will continue until the second coming."

From my experience growing up as Amil, and reading about Amil, Amil's believe the millennium to be the time between the 1st and 2nd comings, and NOT the time between the 1st advent and satan's little season.

sovereigngrace · Apr 3, 2020

Davy said:
Not what God's Word shows at all.

Your adherence to the Amill doctrine has blinded you from what all Paul said there...

1 Cor 15:24-25
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even The Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
KJV

1 Cor 15:28
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him That put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

The "end" comes "when"... Christ has put ALL ENEMIES under His feet. Not just some, but ALL His enemies, for ALL knees will bow to Him, remember? Because that "when" is a CONDITION, it means that MUST happen first, before He will deliver up the kingdom to The Father. So you cannot just slap those 1 Cor.15:23-28 verses into an Amill position when those verses don't support it. What Paul showed there is the same time events of Rev.20 about Christ's future Millennial reign over the wicked starting at His 2nd coming.

No, death is not destroyed at Christ's second coming. Rev.20 tells us about the "second death" of the casting into the "lake of fire" AFTER the "thousand years" mentioned there. We are told death and hell are cast into that "lake of fire" AFTER the "thousand years". Because the Amill position has that backwards, it reveals that position is an agenda of men, and not The Word of God.

I can see you've never understood basic control statements like IF, Then, Else. Those are conditional statements. 'When' is Paul's conditional statement, a conditional statement for when Christ puts all His enemies under His feet. That means we have to look for 'when' that is to happen. It is to happen DURING the "thousand years" that begins at His coming!

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV

Jesus speaking to His elect Church of Philadelphia. That has NEVER happened yet. Nor will it happen until Jesus returns. Notice those wicked "synagogue of Satan" are NOT DESTROYED yet then. Instead, Jesus will make those come to worship Him at the feet of His elect!

So when... will His elect be in power over those of the "synagogue of Satan", when they bow at His elect's feet? At the START of Jesus' return. He promised His elect will reign with Him over the nations with "a rod of iron" (Psalms 2; Revelation 2:25-27). Even with Revelation 19:11-15 we are shown Jesus' 2nd coming to rule over the nations with that "rod of iron". That rod is not upon His Church! It is upon the rebellious, His ENEMIES, AFTER His return. That... is what the future "thousand years" of Rev.20 is for!

Where is this so-called future thousand years in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28? Nowhere! With you fixation of this supposed period, you force it into text after text where it does not belong.

I see a pattern with Premils: they explain away all the clear and climactic passages with their faulty opinion of one chapter in Scripture - Rev 20. Their mantra is: what saith Rev 20'. Amils on the other hand embrace the full gamut of Scripture which shows that sin, death, decay, Satan and the wicked are destroyed at the second coming. You still haven't addressed the passages and attached arguments I submitted. You cannot because it would negate Premil. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55, Luke 20:34-36, Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5 and Revelation 22:3 all beautifully correlate to prove this, and forbid the Premil theory.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 outlines the climactic reality of Christ's coming and the fact it is "the end." You have nothing to query that.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 says: “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For (or gar or seeing) since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For (or gar or seeing) as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ (present active subjunctive) the kingdom to God, even the Father; when ‘he shall have put down’ (aorist active subjunctive) all rule and all authority and power. For (or gar or seeing) he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For (or gar or seeing) ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:25-28).

Firstly, the usage of the word “for” in this reading simply tells us that what follows is a deduction drawn from what has previously been stated. The repeated usage of the word “for” in this reading demonstrates what is being spoken of is an inference to what has just been stated. In this particular passage, the Greek word gar links and then further expands upon the fact that the Second Advent is the time “when he (Christ) shall have (finally) put down all rule and all authority and power.” The Greek word ‘gar’, which interprets and carries the same meaning as our English word “for” is used as a key constituent part of the previous statement or subject matter, to simply allocate a fuller enlargement or reinforcement of the matter just mentioned. The word is mainly used for the purpose of argument, explanation or intensification.

Christ, the OT prophets and the NT writers repeatedly enlarge on a truth or recap a matter when relaying truth. This is a common way of teaching. That is all Paul is doing here. After explaining the finality of the second coming he then explains that he will reign until the last enemy is subdued.

Even though it might not seem it at times, God has got his providential hand on our lives. Moment by moment he watches over us. With a Father’s eye He sovereignly brings circumstances and situations into our lives at the right time in order to conform us unto His purposes. When we disobey, He takes the rod of correction to the seat of our understanding.

Second, 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

Premils delay the moment when “all things shall be subdued unto him” by 1,000 years, holding that “the bondage of corruption” with all its awful facets like sin death and decay is only eliminated 1,000 years after the coming of the Lord. They therefore postpone the final “put down” of all “all rule and all authority and power” till after the Gog / Magog battle in Revelation 20, where they insist Christ finally removes all wickedness from the earth. However, that is not what is being intimated in this passage. This reading actually locates all this at the Lord’s “coming.” It is there that “all things shall be subdued unto him” (1 Corinthians 15:28), “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power” (1 Corinthians 15:24).

Third, Scripture repeatedly presents a truth and then explains or enlarges upon that truth. After telling us that Christ’s Coming sees the termination of the wicked and their evil operations, the writer tells us that Christ’s reign over His enemies must continue until this climactic point. Whilst “all power” is now assuredly given unto Christ “in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18) through His life, death and resurrection, and whilst through this victorious work “he hath put all things under his feet” in a sovereign manner, we have not yet seen the final subduing of wickedness. This comes at the second coming of the Lord.

Paul is simply reinforcing the thought that he just stated about the climactic Coming of Christ. It is the time “when he shall have put down (or abolished) all rule and all authority and power.” 1 Corinthians 15 verses 24 and 28 repeat the same all-consummating truth.

For Christ to be reigning over His enemies does not in any way suggest these foes are finally and effectively subjugated unto the Lord. No! No more than the rebellious subjects of an earthly monarch who are determined to overthrow the rule of that leader would considered not under the rule of that said king or queen. Whether they like it or not and whether they believe it or not they are subject to the ruler and his laws.

Ephesians 1:20-23 repeats the great truth that Jesus now reigns over His enemies since the cross. We learn that God hath “raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”

Hebrews 2:6-11 says, "What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren."

Luke 20:34-36

You carefully steer around Luke 20:34-36 that show that there is no death or marriage in the age to come, again forbidding Premil. This is the opposite to your supposed future millennium.

sovereigngrace · Apr 3, 2020

claninja said:
The Millennial Kingdom by John Walvoord in regards to Amillinnialsim:

"The present age is between the first and second comings is the fulfillment of the millennium. Its adherents are divided on whether the millennium is being fulfilled now on earth (Augustine) or whether it is being fulfilled by the saints in heaven (Kliefoth)".

From the Handbook of Evangelical Theology by Robert Lightner quoting from J.G. Vos:

"Amillennialism teaches that there will be a parallel and contemporaneous development of good and evil-God's kingdom and satan's kingdom-in this world, which will continue until the second coming."

From my experience growing up as Amil, and reading about Amil, Amil's believe the millennium to be the time between the 1st and 2nd comings, and NOT the time between the 1st advent and satan's little season.

Neither of these prove your false claim. I too believe both statements. Evil and good develop during the advent period. Who teaches what you wrongly and confusingly foist on Amil? You are trying to prove the unprovable.

It has taken you 3 days to come up with nothing.

claninja · Apr 3, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
(1) How can Satan simultaneously be in the bottomless pit and not in the bottomless pit at the same time?

The same way Amil's believe he was put in the bottomless pit, but can still the roam the earth to devour someone.

sovereigngrace said:
(2) How can Satan simultaneously be bound and be loosed at the one time?

Satan was bound at the 1st advent as scripture states, and thus the satan can no longer accuse the elect and the gospel has spread to the nations.

Matthew 12:29 Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his possessions, unless he first binds the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

Satan is loosed at the 1st advent as scripture states, and thus satan is able to persecute the church
John 14:30 will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Revelation 2:13 I know where you live, where the throne of Satan sits

Revelation 2:9 And I am aware of the slander of those who falsely claim to be Jews, but are in fact a synagogue of Satan.

sovereigngrace said:
(3) How can Satan simultaneously deceive the Gentiles and not deceive the Gentiles at the same time?

The gentiles were accepting the Gospel
Acts 15:14 Simon has told us how God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people to be His own

Gentiles, encouraged by unbelieving Jews, attempted to persecute the church.
Acts 14:2-5 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.a So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands. But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles. When an attempt was made by both Gentiles and Jews, with their rulers, to mistreat them and to stone them,

claninja · Apr 3, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Neither of these prove your false claim. I too believe both statements. Evil and good develop during the advent period. Who teaches what you wrongly and confusingly foist on Amil? You are trying to prove the unprovable.

My claim is that the Amil position believes the millennium is symbolic for the time span between the 1st and 2nd advents. I have provided 2 Amil quotes to support this.

So far you have provided no quotes that show this to be otherwise.

sovereigngrace said:
It has taken you 3 days to come up with nothing.

I'm sorry I haven't had time to respond to your posts in a quick manner, I am a healthcare worker at a hospital and things have been extremely busy with the pandemic. So my responses make take a few days.

sovereigngrace · Apr 3, 2020

claninja said:
My claim is that the Amil position believes the millennium is symbolic for the time span between the 1st and 2nd advents. I have provided 2 Amil quotes to support this.

So far you have provided no quotes that show this to be otherwise.

I'm sorry I haven't had time to respond to your posts in a quick manner, I am a healthcare worker at a hospital and things have been extremely busy with the pandemic. So my responses make take a few days.

The burden of proof is with you. The first principle of evidence is: "he who alleges must prove." You have not proved your point. You obviously misunderstand the Amil opposition. Maybe that is why you disagree with it.

claninja · Apr 3, 2020

grafted branch said:
I’m interested in your view here, I haven’t considered this before.

Do you think that Satan being bound has to do with salvation being apart from the law which occurs after the cross; and Satan being loosed has to do with people continuing to believe that salvation comes by the law? Or perhaps put another way Satan is bound for those not under the law, but loosed for those that are under the law.

Satan was bound at the 1st advent as scripture states, and thus the satan can no longer accuse the elect and the gospel has spread to the nations.

Matthew 12:29 Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his possessions, unless he first binds the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

Romans 8:4, 34 so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us.

Satan is loosed at the 1st advent as scripture states, and thus satan is able to persecute the church
John 14:30 will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Revelation 2:13 I know where you live, where the throne of Satan sits

Revelation 2:9 And I am aware of the slander of those who falsely claim to be Jews, but are in fact a synagogue of Satan.

claninja · Apr 3, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The Loosing of Satan and the Final Revolt (20:7-9)

"On being relieved from his confinement, Satan loses no time in resuming his nefarious activities and plunges into his campaign to deceive the nations of the entire earth. These who are tempted are the descendants of the tribulation saints who survive the tribulation and enter the millennium in their natural bodies. B. F. Atkinson believes infants born during the millennium will live to its conclusion and will not be required to make a choice between the devil and Christ until the end.332 The children of those entering the millennium far outnumber the parents, and undoubtedly the earth is teeming with inhabitants at the conclusion of the thousand-year reign of Christ. Outwardly they have been required to conform to the rule of the king and make a profession of obedience to Christ. In many cases, however, this was mere outward conformity without inward reality, and in their inexperience of real temptation they are easy victims of Satan’s wiles.

Hoste comments:

The golden age of the kingdom will last a thousand years, during which righteousness will reign, and peace, prosperity, and the knowledge of God be universally enjoyed. But this will not entail universal conversion, and all profession must be tested… Will not a thousand years under the beneficent sway of Christ and the manifested glory of God suffice to render men immune to his [Satan’s] temptations, will they not have radically changed for the better, and become by the altered conditions of life and the absence of Satanic temptations, children of God and lovers of His will? Alas! It will be proved once more that man whatever his advantages and environment, apart from the grace of God and the new birth, remains at heart only evil and at enmity with God.333

Govett suggests four reasons why Satan must be loosed after a thousand years: (1) to demonstrate that man even under the most favorable circumstances will fall into sin if left to his own choice; (2) to demonstrate the foreknowledge of God who foretells the acts of men as well as His own acts; (3) to demonstrate the incurable wickedness of Satan; (4) to justify eternal punishment, that is, to show the unchanged character of wicked people even under divine jurisdiction for a long period of time.334

In describing the nations, the term “Gog and Magog” is used without any explanation. From the context it would seem that this is not the same event as that described in Ezekiel 38 and 39 where Gog and Magog are prominent; and the battle which follows is entirely different and separated by at least a thousand years from that of Ezekiel’s prophecy. Baines contrasts this battle with that of Ezekiel in these words:

Gog and Magog are here used in a wider sense than in Ezekiel, and their invasion differs in time and details, though agreeing in character and object, with that which he foretells. Ezekiel predicts an incursion by a great northern power called Gog, which, from certain geographical indications, is easily identified with Russia. In the Revelation, however, Gog and Magog are used to designate the nations, not merely from the north, but from all parts, “the four quarters of the earth.” Again, the invasion named by Ezekiel is at the beginning of Christ’s reign; that in the Revelation at the end. The hosts in Ezekiel, too, fall on the mountains, and their bodies are buried; whereas the forces assembled in the Revelation are devoured by fire from heaven. The judgment is instantaneous. Christ’s reign is a reign of righteousness, during which evil is not tolerated as now, but promptly crushed.335

While many explanations have been made, one of the intriguing ones is that Gog refers to the ruler and Magog to the people as in Ezekiel 38. Hence, what the passage means is that the nations of the world follow Satan, including the rulers (Gog) and the people (Magog) under the rulers. Another plausible explanation is that the expression is used much as we use the term “Waterloo” to express a disastrous battle, but one not related to the historic origination of the term. Many contrasts can be observed between this battle and that of Ezekiel in that Satan is prominent in this whereas he is not mentioned in Ezekiel 38-39. The invasion of Ezekiel comes from the north whereas this invasion comes from all directions. Ezekiel’s battle probably occurs previous to the battle of the great day of God Almighty before the millennium, whereas this occurs after the thousand years have been finished. The number of those who rebel against God and follow Satan is described as innumerable “as the sand of the sea.” Thus the last gigantic rebellion of man develops against God’s sovereign rule in which the wicked meet their Waterloo.

As the battle is joined in verse 9, the great host led by Satan and coming from all directions compasses the camp of the saints. The word for “camp” (Gr., parembole„) refers to those engaged in battle and who are in battle array, hence a “camp,” “fortress,” or “citadel.” Here the term seems to refer to the city of Jerusalem itself which is described as “the beloved city” (cf. Ps. 78:68; 87:2). Apparently Christ permits the army to assemble and encircle the capital city. No sooner has the army of Satan been assembled, however, than fire comes down from God out of heaven, and the besiegers are destroyed, like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Thus is shattered the last vain attempt of Satan to claim a place of prominence and worship in attempted usurpation of the prerogatives of God. Thus ends also the false theory that man under perfect environment will willingly serve the God who created and redeemed him. Even in the ideal situation of the millennial reign of Christ, innumerable hosts immediately respond to the first temptation to rebel. This is the end of the road for the nations who rebel against God as well as for the career of Satan.

There is no mention of the Amil belief of the 1,000 years being between the 1st advent and satans little season in these quotes.

sovereigngrace said:
The burden of proof is with you. The first principle of evidence is: "he who alleges must prove." You have not proved your point. You obviously misunderstand the Amil opposition. Maybe that is why you disagree with it.

Both quotes I provided state Amil is the belief that the 1,000 years is symbolic for the time between the 1st and 2nd comings:

The Millennial Kingdom by John Walvoord in regards to Amillinnialsim:

"The present age is between the first and second comings is the fulfillment of the millennium. Its adherents are divided on whether the millennium is being fulfilled now on earth (Augustine) or whether it is being fulfilled by the saints in heaven (Kliefoth)".

From the Handbook of Evangelical Theology by Robert Lightner quoting from J.G. Vos:

"Amillennialism teaches that there will be a parallel and contemporaneous development of good and evil-God's kingdom and satan's kingdom-in this world, which will continue until the second coming."

Even theopedia defines it the same way:

Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism) is the view in Christian eschatology which states that Christ is presently reigning through the Church, and that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20:1-6 is a metaphorical reference to the present church age which will culminate in Christ's return"

I have yet to find any resourses of modern Amills that believe otherwise. So maybe you could help and provide actual quotes of modern Amils who state the millennium is symbolic for the time between the 1st advent and is completed before satan's little season.

I offered offered 3 quotes that define Amil as the time between the 1st and 2nd advent. If this is not correct, as you appear to be claiming, please provide your evidence?

claninja · Apr 3, 2020

DavidPT said:
And speaking of Revelation 12. That chapter obviously has the entire NT church era in view, IOW at least the past 2000 years, the same 2000 years Amils are claiming is meaning the thousand years in Revelation 20. Where can this 2000 year binding of satan be found in Revelation 12? I don't see a hint of it anywhere in the text. There is not a single place in all of that chapter depicting a satan that is bound and locked up in a pit.

Chapter 12's main view is the cross and the 3.5 years after the cross.

A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

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