Romans 7 and 8 without confusing verses

JIMINZ said:

Scripture, Scripture, Scripture, back up your assumptions with Scripture, otherwise it's just hot air, just because you have said something does not make it so.

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Oh boy, you really don't listen to your own advice.

Furthermore, I think an old anecdote is in order here;
"The devil loves to quote scripture"

JIMINZ said:

Does this disposition of yours ever work or do you just keep on sinning and repenting?

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I pray for guidance, confess my sins if/when they happen, and move on.

CharismaticLady said:

One problem I see with many who relate themselves to the struggle with sin of Romans 7 is there is a chapter break before they see that Romans 8:2 is freedom from the struggle with sin. They even believe chapter 7 is Paul's constant struggle with sin as an apostle! But there is no struggle when a person has been born again of the Spirit as Paul was. But there was a struggle under the law when he was still in the unborn-again flesh, without the Spirit of Christ in him. Those on the forum who relate so much to the struggle may be in the process of being saved, but haven't completely surrendered unto true repentance in order to receive the infilling Holy Spirit and be saved.

I've taken the liberty to just show a condensed rearranged version of Romans 7 and 8 without the chapter break and the confusing misinterpreted description of the life of struggle under the law. I have not changed wording, just dropped verses and rearranged verses to show the true power of the Spirit. I hope this edit of Scripture will help those who have twisted this portion of Scripture to mean a Christian will always struggle with sin, even with the Holy Spirit in them.

Romans 7 and 8 without the struggle of those under the law

12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

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The Scriptures are clear that true Christians have the indwelling Spirit to free them from the power of sin over their lives - but only as the Christian remains diligent to his faith commitment to his Lord Jesus by walking by His Spirit daily.

John 1:10-13; John 7:37-39; Galatians 3:13-14; Galatians 3:21-29; Romans 6:4; Romans 6:12-22

What that means is, possessing the Spirit of God by faith does not mean we are still not tempted, for even Lord Jesus, while on earth, was tempted in every way just as we are. What this means is that, as we listen to and follow Jesus by faith, the indwelling Spirit leads our faith to victory - to overcome the power sin, and to live out a life of love as a follower of Jesus.

Walking by His Spirit is to listen to and follow Jesus, for the Spirit leads the faithful to victory over sin and death as they follow Jesus by faith.

The Gospel explains God’s plan of salvation that can basically be summed up as follows:

• All of us, since Adam, have sinned being separated from the life of God and became slaves to our flesh, fulfilling its desires as part of this rebellious world, which is death and separation from God (Romans 3:1-20, Romans 6:19-21)
• God offers His saving grace to all people through the Gospel (John 3:13-21; Romans 3:21-31)
• We personally access God’s saving grace and all His promises by faith in Jesus (Romans 5:1-4; Luke 24:47)
• The substance of this faith is symbolized in Baptism (Romans 6:1-4; Colossians 2:9-14… Colossians 3:1-14), and is demonstrated by: firstly: following the command to repent, which is, a change of our mind, purpose, and life through knowledge of the Gospel, leading us to commit to die to, put to death, deny, put off, sacrifice, crucify, or renounce, the old master (the flesh); and then, secondly: we are to put our faith in, or receive, Jesus as Lord whom we now commit to listen to and follow to receive the new life of salvation (Romans 6:21-22; Luke 9:23-26; John 10:27-28, 1 John 2:4-6). This is what Baptism represents: Romans 6:1-4
• After believing, just as described, the Spirit of Christ comes to dwell in us and work out the will of God in our lives as we walk by, or reap to, the Spirit (John 7:37-39; Acts 5:32; John 14:15-17; John 14:21-23; Galatians 3:14; Galatians 6:7-9; Romans 8:12-13) in sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:3-8).
• The indwelling Spirit leads our faith commitment to Christ Jesus into freedom from sin’s power, and the victory to live a New Life of love. This New Life is synonymous with salvation from sin and death – for you cannot possess salvation from sin and death, you cannot possess a new life, if you are still a slave to any sin according to the Gospel (Romans 6; Colossians 3:1-14, Hebrews 3:13-14).
• The NT calls this faith commitment to Christ “walking in the Spirit” or “reaping to the Spirit” or “living by the Spirit,” or “following Jesus. These are synonymous terms by which the Spirit indwells, leads and guides us – only by faith in Jesus as Lord. This is the new life of sanctification (set apart) before God that Christ died for – dead to the old carnal master and now alive by following our Lord, Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:15-17). This is the New Life, and is a new creation, regeneration, or salvation as we faithfully follow Jesus. Please meditate on these Passages, and then, you decide: John 7:37-39; Romans 8:1-4; Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 6:7-9; Galatians 5:13-24; 2 Corinthians 5:15-17; 1 John 2:4-6; John 8:12.
• Through many trials and temptations we remain in a saving relationship with God by a continued Gospel Faith in Lord Jesus, as described, to the end; this is the new life of walking in the Spirit until the end – this results in eternal life (1 Peter 1; Galatians 5:13-26; Matthew 10:38; John 10:27-28; 1 John 2:4-6; Galatians 5:13-24, 2 Corinthians 5:15-17; Galatians 6:7-10; Romans 6:22)
• The New Testament is the New Covenant between God and man – explained.
• The New Covenant contains God’s promises to mankind put into effect by the blood of Christ Jesus. God offers the grace of salvation, and all its promises, to all those who put their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord who saves them as they follow Him by faith (John 3:13-19). That is the Covenant.

Blessings

Der Alter said:

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.​

Or do you wish to argue that this doesn't mean exactly what it says?

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Apostle Peter admits Paul's epistles are hard to understand.

And yet, many Christians tell me, they don't have problems understanding Paul's epistles.

Their thinking contradicts what Peter said. It means they are not seeing the truth but simply following the mistakes of those before them.

theoneandonlypencil said:

You're yet again ignoring all of my other valid points in favor of low-hanging fruit...and doing so by quoting ten verses, with no context or proper exegesis, out of the entire bible.

What I meant, Jiminz, by 'jumping through hoops', is twisting scripture, taking it out of context and ignoring any other scripture that contradicts your point.

As for interpretation--let me show you how easy it is to set up false interpretation based on hearing something isolated/out of context and not 'as a whole';

"And then, Janet said, "What do you think, I murdered him??" "

I could tell you 'Janet said 'I murdered him'!' and it would still be true...she did say that, but I also withheld what she said beforehand, which completely nullifies my 'interpretation' that Janet just murdered a man.

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Paul gave an example of why he had to die to the law in Rom ch7. The example he gave referred to law only the individual and God need know about if it was broken, law relating to the inner man. I do wonder, whether those who quote texts such as 1John 3:9, with a superficial understanding of it, believe they are perfect in relation to the law concerning the inner man, the law only you and God need know you break. Or, whether they have set the bar not to commit sin, much lower than Paul set it, or indeed, much lower than the law itself sets it.

CharismaticLady said:

Great! You are one of the few that understands. And you are right, which is why Paul give us the command to not quench the Spirit.

Did you know if you write out the complete name of the book, all we have to do to read it is mouse over it. And don't forget that Acts is Acts of the Apostles; that is the only way it can be activated to read.

Just a couple things. "Possessing the Spirit of God by faith" seems to be not actually experienced. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. When the powerful Holy Spirit comes inside you, you KNOW it. Your whole nature turns upside down immediately. And the only way to receive it is through complete repentance. That night for me in 1977 I prayed the prayer that David prayed and meant it. Psalms 51.

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.

What that is saying is my nature is weak and sinful, and I need you to come into me and make me strong and enduring. Because that is what we need to be born again of the Spirit.

Even though Jesus was brought temptations, it was not in His nature to succumb. And neither is it in the born again nature that is partaking of the divine nature of God. 2 Peter 1:2-4.

Amen!

The rest of your post I also agree with. There are not many of us like-minded on this forum. I only know of a couple more.

You might like to edit your post and just spell out the book names.

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Dear CharismaticLady,

Thank you for your comments and helpful advice.

CharismaticLady said:

Even though Jesus was brought temptations, it was not in His nature to succumb. And neither is it in the born again nature that is partaking of the divine nature of God. 2 Peter 1:2-4.

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setst RE: I agree as long as we keep in mind the reality that Partaking of the Divine Nature of God does not guarantee your faith, or that you will remain free of sin for the rest of your life. Rather, our faithfulness guarantees God's power onto salvation and protection...

Romans 1:16-17 (WEB)
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.”Habakkuk 2:4

1 Peter 1:5 (KJV)
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Lord Jesus puts the responsibility on each individual to faithfully overcome, just as He overcame.

Revelation 3:21 (WEB)
21 He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.

John 15:10-11 (WEB)
10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

Hebrews 5:7-9 (NIV)
7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.

1 Peter 4:1-2 (WEB)
1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind; for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that you no longer should live the rest of your time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

Matthew 10:38 (WEB) 38 He who doesn’t take his cross and follow after me isn’t worthy of me.

1 John 2:3-6 (WEB) 3 This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his commandments. 4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. 5 But God’s love has most certainly been perfected in whoever keeps his word. This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

Blessings

not under law said:

Paul gave an example of why he had to die to the law in Rom ch7. The example he gave referred to law only the individual and God need know about if it was broken, law relating to the inner man. I do wonder, whether those who quote texts such as 1John 3:9, with a superficial understanding of it, believe they are perfect in relation to the law concerning the inner man, the law only you and God need know you break. Or, whether they have set the bar not to commit sin, much lower than Paul set it, or indeed, much lower than the law itself sets it.

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We are DEAD to the law, there isn't any superficial understanding of that reality in Christ.

Rom. 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Gal. 2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Once you understand that, understanding 1 John 3:9 make perfect sense.

JIMINZ said:

It takes more faith to believe everything you have just posted than to believe a Christian cannot sin.

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That may seem true, but its the truth.

See Romans 6, Colossians 3:1-14; Galatians 5:13-24

These Scriptures explain the acceptable faith.

Each person must count the cost of faith in Jesus - your life - because if you are not committed to die to, or renounce, your old master - the carnal nature - and then commit to follow Jesus as your rightful Lord and Master, then your faith is empty and a counterfeit.

God shares His glory with no other idol, you can only have one Master; God will not endure fence-sitters:

Luke 9:57-62 (WEB) 61 Another also said, “I want to follow you, Lord, but first allow me to say good-bye to those who are at my house.” 62 But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for God’s Kingdom.”

Matthew 10:37-38 (WEB) 38 He who doesn’t take his cross and follow after me isn’t worthy of me.

There can be no new life if you are still serving the old master of any sin, yet claim to believe in Jesus.

Luke 14:33 (WEB) 33 . . .whoever of you who doesn’t renounce all that he has, he can’t be my disciple.

John 12:25-26 (WEB) 25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves me, him My Father will honor.

2 Corinthians 5:15-17 (WEB)
15 He died for all, that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who for their sakes died and rose again. . .17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.

2 Corinthians 13:5 (NIV) 5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in The Faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

James 1:13-16 (NIV)
12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

Hebrews 3:12-13 (NIV)
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.

Romans 6:21-22 (NIV)
21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 (WEB) 11 To this end we also pray always for you, that our God may count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire of goodness and work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:10-12 (WEB) 10 Therefore, brothers, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure; for if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Revelation 3:2-5 (WEB) 2 Wake up and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 14:12 (NIV)12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB) 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Revelation 3 (WEB)
11 I am coming quickly! Hold firmly to what you have, so that no one takes your crown.

Revelation 2 (WEB) 7 To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of my God.

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB) 16 Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

1 Corinthians 9:26-27 (WEB) 26 I therefore run like that, as not uncertainly. I fight like that, as not beating the air, 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

1 John 5:4 (WEB) 4 This is the victory that has overcome the world: your faith.

Many are called but few are chosen... These are chosen because they remained faithful to their Lord to the end.

Broad is the road to destruction, and many are those who find it.

Blessings

JIMINZ said:

We are DEAD to the law, there isn't any superficial understanding of that reality in Christ.

Rom. 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Gal. 2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Once you understand that, understanding 1 John 3:9 make perfect sense.

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So if you break the moral law you have not committed sin? If you covet you have not committed sin? Have I understood you correctly?

setst777 said:

That may seem true, but its the truth.

See Romans 6, Colossians 3:1-14; Galatians 5:13-24

These Scriptures explain the acceptable faith.

Each person must count the cost of faith in Jesus - your life - because if you are not committed to die to, or renounce, your old master - the carnal nature - and then commit to follow Jesus as your rightful Lord and Master, then your faith is empty and a counterfeit. There can be no new life if you are still serving the old master of any sin, yet claim to believe in Jesus.

Luke 14:33 (WEB) 33 . . .whoever of you who doesn’t renounce all that he has, he can’t be my disciple.

John 12:25-26 (WEB) 25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves me, him My Father will honor.

2 Corinthians 5:15-17 (WEB)
15 He died for all, that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who for their sakes died and rose again. . .17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.

2 Corinthians 13:5 (NIV) 5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in The Faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

James 1:13-16 (NIV)
12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

Hebrews 3:12-13 (NIV)
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.

Romans 6:22 (WEB)
22 But now, being made free from sin and having become servants of God, you have your fruit of sanctification and the result of eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 (WEB) 11 To this end we also pray always for you, that our God may count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire of goodness and work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:10-12 (WEB) 10 Therefore, brothers, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure; for if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Revelation 3:2-5 (WEB) 2 Wake up and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 14:12 (NIV)12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB) 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Revelation 3 (WEB)
11 I am coming quickly! Hold firmly to what you have, so that no one takes your crown.

Revelation 2 (WEB) 7 To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of my God.

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB) 16 Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

1 Corinthians 9:26-27 (WEB) 26 I therefore run like that, as not uncertainly. I fight like that, as not beating the air, 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

1 John 5:4 (WEB) 4 This is the victory that has overcome the world: your faith.

Many are called but few are chosen... These are chosen because the remained faithful to their Lord to the end.

Broad is the road to destruction, and many are those who find it.

Blessings

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I'm not sure about your last comments, how are they meant?

Many are called but few are chosen... These are chosen because the remained faithful to their Lord to the end.

Broad is the road to destruction, and many are those who find it.

not under law said:

So if you break the moral law you have not committed sin? If you covet you have not committed sin? Have I understood you correctly?

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I/we are dead in Christ, the Law has been applied to us, your putting your understanding of the Spiritual life in Christ at a superficial physical level.

Do you not believe you are dead to the law, what would convince you?

Are you able to give me a verse where it speaks of this Moral Law?

JIMINZ said:

I/we are dead in Christ, the Law has been applied to us, your putting your understanding of the Spiritual life in Christ at a superficial physical level.

Do you not believe you are dead to the law, what would convince you?

Are you able to give me a verse where it speaks of this Moral Law?

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You appear not know if it is sin to covet. Why is that?

JIMINZ said:

Don't be so snide, I asked a legitimate question.

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Si I will answer you, then you answer me. You are dead to righteousness of obeying the law
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth Rom10:4
In this sense you die to the law
Now please, is it sin to covet or is it not?

JIMINZ said:

Don't be so snide, I asked a legitimate question.

When Paul said you are dead to the LAW did he differentiate what Law that was, or is the Moral Law different than LAW?

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Im waiting for my answer. If you do not know what sin is how can you claim not to commit sin? Is it sin to covet, yes or no