Calvin quote

BNR32FAN said:

Because everyone has sinned. The determining factor for receiving salvation is repentance (turning towards God and away from sin). A person trying to refrain from sin will fail regardless of whether they are a believer or not but only the believer will receive Christ’s atonement. So the determining factor is repentance.

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Indeed:

2 Timothy 2: NASB

24And a servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome, but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, and forbearing. 25He must gently reprove those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. 26Then they will come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, who has taken them captive to his will.

Hammster said:

The context of 1 Tim 2 should lead us to believe that by “all men”, Paul was referring to all types of men. I can be clearer if need be.

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So you don’t believe God wants everyone to repent and be saved?

BNR32FAN said:

2 Peter 3:9

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2 Timothy 2: NASB
24And a servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome, but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, and forbearing. 25He must gently reprove those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. 26Then they will come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, who has taken them captive to his will.

redleghunter said:

Indeed:

2 Timothy 2: NASB

24And a servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome, but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, and forbearing. 25He must gently reprove those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. 26Then they will come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, who has taken them captive to his will.

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what’s your point here?

Hammster said:

The context of 1 Tim 2 should lead us to believe that by “all men”, Paul was referring to all types of men. I can be clearer if need be.

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No Peter’s opening statement in that chapter makes it clear he is referring to all men.


“First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:1-4‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Kermos said:

She, Jezebel in ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:20-21, is part of prophecy given to the Apostle John, and you are trying to build salvation doctrine off of it. That is very precarious ground.

The ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:20-21 does not indicate the ability to repent for Jezebel.

Respecting 2 Peter 3:9, Peter refers to God's chosen persons when he wrote "you" in the verse, so God wants all God's chosen persons to repent, and every single one of God's chosen persons will be saved from the wrath of God.

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Well that’s a convenient way to dismiss scripture.

BNR32FAN said:

what’s your point here?

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It is truly God’s desire for all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

It is true that only God grants repentance (2 Timothy 2:25).

What have we been predestined for? Salvation?

God always knew those whom would believe in Him.

He does not predestine us for salvation. The predestination determined by God, is what we will walk into once saved.

Was Moses chosen to be born during the Church age? No, Moses was not. Why not? God's sovereign choice.

God could have had Moses born five years after the Church age began, knowing that Moses would be positive to the drawing of God.

If God had sovereignly predetermined that for Moses? Its would mean that Moses was chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundations of the world.

What does it mean to be predetermined and chosen in Christ?

Well? Where was the woman before Adam was placed into the deep sleep to remove his rib?

Her substance was "in Adam." She was hidden "in Adam" until revealed by the Lord!

Just like we have been chosen (out from all God knew would believe) to become the Bride of Christ. For now we are hid in Christ!

God does not choose us to believe. He simply chooses when we will be alive to believe. In doing so? He sovereignly chose what it would be that we enter into once we entered into salvation.

Calvin did not get the big picture hanging straight on his wall. He had some of the picture only.

grace and peace!

Hammster said:

Believers (those who are saved) can please God. Unbelievers (those who are not saved) cannot please God.

I’m not sure I can make it any simpler.

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The offerings of Cain and Able should be descriptive enough. God accepted one of two.

Hammster said:

All types. Not just the ones around us, or the ones we like.

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He says twice ALL MEN. To say otherwise is just ignoring scripture.

genez said:

What have we been predestined for? Salvation?

God always knew those whom would believe in Him.

He does not predestine us for salvation. The predestination determined by God, is what we will walk into once saved.

Was Moses chosen to be born during the Church age? No, Moses was not. Why not? God's sovereign choice.

God could have had Moses born five years after the Church age began, knowing that Moses would be positive to the drawing of God.

If God had sovereignly predetermined that for Moses? Its would mean that Moses was chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundations of the world.

What does it mean to be predetermined and chosen in Christ?

Well? Where was the woman before Adam was placed into the deep sleep to remove his rib?

Her substance was "in Adam." She was hidden "in Adam" until revealed by the Lord!

Just like we have been chosen (out from all God knew would believe) to become the Bride of Christ. For now we are hid in Christ!

God does not choose us to believe. He simply chooses when we will be alive to believe. In doing so? He sovereignly chose what it would be that we enter into once we entered into salvation.

Calvin did not get the big picture hanging straight on his wall. He had some of the picture only.

grace and peace!

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Did God choose Moses to lead the people of Israel out of bondage, or did Moses just walk into that on his own?

BNR32FAN said:

He says twice ALL MEN. To say otherwise is just ignoring scripture.

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That would be entering the Twilight Zone of Universalism. Which I understand was an Eastern Church problem for a bit as Alexandria was a hotbed of heresies.

BNR32FAN said:

John 15:16 is referring to Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles whom He Himself hand picked. The context does not support anyone outside of the 11 apostles. Revelation 2:20-21 is very clear.

Just as you said the “you” is referring to saved people in 2 Peter 3:9 the “you” in John 15:16 is referring to His 11 faithful apostles.

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Yes, Revelation 2:20-21 clearly omits that a person controls repentance.

I wrote that Peter used "you" to write of God's chosen persons in 2 Peter 3:9. The "you" includes all people saved and to be saved.

The "you" in John 15:16 refers to all believers in all time. I plan to address this further in subsequent posts.

BNR32FAN said:

John 15:16 is referring to Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles whom He Himself hand picked. The context does not support anyone outside of the 11 apostles. Revelation 2:20-21 is very clear.

Just as you said the “you” is referring to saved people in 2 Peter 3:9 the “you” in John 15:16 is referring to His 11 faithful apostles.

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Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and in the same passage the Word of God says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), so the King of Glory is talking about salvation. Lord Jesus says "you" again and again.

According to the Apostle Peter, the context of Lord Jesus' words including "you" covers all believers in all time, per this account:

Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).

At that time, Peter said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16).

Prior to the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Lord Jesus said "John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) to the apostles whom Jesus gathered togather (Acts 1:4) which included Peter, and Jesus says "you" right here - with the apostles present right there, Jesus says "you".

Later after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter remembered Lord Jesus saying "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" and there is the word "you" (Acts 11:16) which Peter tied to the Gentiles Cornelius with all his household (Acts 11:14); furthermore, Peter tied when Lord Jesus says "you" to all believers in all time (Acts 11:17)!

Since the Apostle Peter includes all believers in all time when Lord Jesus says "you" as recorded in Scripture, then this results in the Word of God, Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) binding all believers in all time.

The "you" in John 15:16 applies to all believers in all time.

Man can do nothing at all to be saved, no free will choice, nothing (John 15:16-19).

God is exclusively in control of salvation of man (John 15:16-19).

BNR32FAN said:

John 15:16 is referring to Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles whom He Himself hand picked. The context does not support anyone outside of the 11 apostles. Revelation 2:20-21 is very clear.

Just as you said the “you” is referring to saved people in 2 Peter 3:9 the “you” in John 15:16 is referring to His 11 faithful apostles.

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Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and in the same passage the Word of God says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), so the King of Glory is talking about salvation. Lord Jesus says "you" again and again.

According to the Christ Jesus Himself, the context of Lord Jesus' words including "you" covers all believers in all time, per this account:

Part of the prayer of Lord Jesus during the supper covered in John 13 to John 17 is thus "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20).

John 15 is during the supper, and John 15:16-19 occur during the supper.

Jesus said "through their word" (John 17:20) which means that "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) are words that the Apostle John recorded. John recorded the Word of God, and the Word of God says "for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), and He preceded these words with "I do not ask on behalf of these alone" (John 17:20), so the Word of God during the supper is not just for the people in the room, but the Word of God during the supper is for all believers in all time.

The "you" in John 15:16 applies to all believers in all time.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Kermos said:

Second Peter is a letter written to the believers. That "you" refers to people of whom God chooses (John 15:16).

There is no mention of man granting himself repentance.

No place in scripture is it recorded that man grants himself repentance; on the other hand, in scripture it is recorded that God grants repentance (Acts 11:18).

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So, it's written to believers, that doesn't cancel out the truth that it says God doesn't want any to perish. It would be very redundant to say God didn't want any of the those he irresistibly caused to persevere to perish. If I write a letter someone and tell them God doesn't want any to perish, do you think I only mean the people who read the letter?

Hammster said:

Again, you are assuming mind control. Couldn’t God just stopped the serpent? Or not create him? Or not make a law about eating the fruit? He could have any of those without this alleged mind control.

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So, you have God the helicopter parent always hovering over us an grabbing away each evil thought before it enters our mind. How is that any different than mind control? Again, sin is not just an action. Or arranging every situation so that sin was impossible. That would be fine, if God had intended for us to have no choices. Obviously , he preferred to create us with wills of our own, so we could freely obey if we choose. People who say they don't find free will in scripture are either lying or someone has taught them to read it that way. No one comes to that conclusion by themselves.