UNDER THE LAW!

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Saint Steven

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In post 498, I wrote that the spiritual intent of the fourth commandment is upheld in born again believers seven days a week. Believers are not under the law, they are not under righteousness of obeying it.
I guess that is beside the point. Is sin the transgression of the law?
The law being defined as the law God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.

Saint Steven said:
I don't think that is true as a stand-alone statement.
The Sabbath commandment is part of the law. Are we under that law?
If we were under the law, then a Sabbath violation would be a sin. (a transgression of the law)

The statement cannot be qualified under grace.
 
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To whom was it given?


Hebrews 8
CLV(i) 1 Now this is the sum of what is being said: Such a Chief Priest have we, Who is seated at the right of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle. which the Lord pitches, and not a man." 3 For every chief priest is constituted to offer both approach presents and sacrifices. Whence it is necessary for This One also to have something which He may offer. 4 Indeed, then, if He were on earth He would not even be a priest, there being those who offer (present tense) approach presents according to the law" 5 who, by an example and shadow, are offering the divine service of the celestials, according as Moses has been apprized when about to be completing the tabernacle. For see, He is averring, that you shall be making all "in accord with the model shown to you in the mountain." 6 Yet now He has happened upon a more excellent ministry, in as much as He is the Mediator, also, of a better covenant, which has been instituted on better promises." 7 For if that first one were unblamable, no place would have been sought for a second. " 8 For, blaming them, He is saying, "Lo! the days are coming,the Lord is saying, "And I shall be concluding with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant, 9 Not in accord with the covenant which I make with their fathers In the day of My taking hold of their hand To be leading them out of the land of Egypt, Seeing that they do not remain in My covenant, And I neglect them,the Lord is saying, 10 For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days,the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people."
 
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not under law

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I guess that is beside the point. Is sin the transgression of the law?
The law being defined as the law God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.

Saint Steven said:
I don't think that is true as a stand-alone statement.
The Sabbath commandment is part of the law. Are we under that law?
If we were under the law, then a Sabbath violation would be a sin. (a transgression of the law)

The statement cannot be qualified under grace.
Yes, sin is the transgression of the law. But Jesus died for believers sins, so they are not under law but under grace. To qualify, for the believer, the law in question would be the law written in their hearts and minds
 
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And why would anyone want to embrace the transitory ministry of condemnation and death that has no glory now? (2 Corinthians 3:6-11) The letter kills.

2 Corinthians 3:6-11
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Paul on the Law: 2 Corinthians 3

Continued from: Paul on the Law: 1 Corinthians 9

2 Corinthians 3 (CLV)
1 Are we beginning again to commend ourselves? Or need we not, even as some, commendatory letters to you or from you? 2 You are our letter, engraven in our hearts, known and read by all men,

Interesting the letter isn't a thing; it's a who. Who might that be?

Does the last verse of the previous chapter give us a clue?

17 For we are not as the majority, who are peddling the word of God, but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God in Christ, are we speaking."


3 for you are manifesting a letter of Christ, dispensed by us, and engraven, not with ink, but with the spirit of the living God, not on stone tablets, but on the fleshy tablets of the heart."

A letter of Messiah written in the Ruach of YHWH, engraved on our hearts. That's quite a letter!

(CLV) Jer 31:31
Behold, the days are coming, averring is Yahweh, when I will contract a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.


(CLV) Jer 31:32
Not like the covenant which I contracted with their fathers in the day I held fast- into their hand to bring them forth from the land of Egypt, which covenant of Mine they themselves annulled while I was Possessor over them, averring is Yahweh.

(CLV) Jer 31:33
For this is the covenant which I shall contract with the house of Israel after those days, averring is Yahweh: I will put My law within them, And I shall write it on their heart; I will become their Elohim, And they shall become My people.




(CLV) Ro 2:15
who are displaying the action of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying together and their reckonings between one another, accusing or defending them,


4 Now such is the confidence we have through Christ toward God 5 (not that we are competent of ourselves, to reckon anything as of ourselves, but our competency is of God),

Those who walk in the ways of YHWH, do it not of their own power; but by YHWH's power through Messiah.

6 Who also makes us competent dispensers of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the spirit,

The Ruach Ha'Kodesh reminds you of YHWH's Law, when your eyes aren't on it.

Well either that, or we're abolishing the law of YHWH, written in the Ruach of YHWH, engraved on our hearts.

Let's see what else Paul has to say about YHWH's law:

(CLV) Ac 24:14
"Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

(CLV) Ac 25:8
Paul defending that "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the sanctuary, nor against Caesar did I any sin."

(CLV) Ro 2:12
for whoever sinned without law, without law also shall perish, and whoever sinned in law, through law will be judged.

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

(CLV) Ro 7:12
So that the law, indeed, is holy, and the precept holy and just and good.

(CLV) Ro 7:22
For I am gratified with the law of God as to the man within,


I'll just go with my first intuition.


for the letter is killing, yet the spirit is vivifying." 7 (Now if the dispensation of death, by letters chiseled in stone,

Obviously this is speaking of YHWH's Law. Why does Paul call it the 'dispensation of death'? When we break the law, the wages are death.
Is the law death? No; death is the result of disobedience to YHWH.


Those who are led by YHWH's Ruach, are obedient to the Torah. The Spirit's Law of Life frees them from disobedience to the Torah, The law of Sin and Death.

See: Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 8

Those who die to sin; are reborn in the Ruach.


came in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to look intently into the face of Moses, because of the glory of his face, which was being nullified, 8 how shall not rather the dispensation of the spirit be in glory?

Why do you suppose that the glory in the face of Moses was being nullified? Moses gained that glory in the presence of YHWH's righteous glory. Moses was the mediator between YHWH and Israel; but Israel didn't want to see YHWH's glory in Moses; any more than they had a will to obey YHWH's law.

YHWH Ruach gives us the will to obedience to YHWH's Torah.

Hallelu YAH!


9 For if in the dispensation of condemnation is glory,

YHWH's law condemns those who don't keep YHWH's law.

When we turn from sin in faith; and we are washed clean through YHWH's grace; glory be to YHWH!


much rather the dispensation of righteousness is exceeding in glory."

What is righteousness?

Definition of righteous
1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
Definition of RIGHTEOUS


Righteousness is obedience to YHWH's law.


10 For that also which has been glorified has not been glorified in this particular, on account of the glory transcendent." 11 For if that which is being nullified was nullified through glory, much rather that which is remaining, remains in glory."

What was nullified? It was YHWH's glory; as Israel didn't take their marriage vow seriously. They turned away from their husband in disobedience to his authority. They refused to glorify his righteousness.

Was YHWH's righteousness nullified?

Of course not!


12 Having, then, such an expectation, we are using much boldness, 13 and are not even as Moses. He placed a covering over his face, so that the sons of Israel were not to look intently to the consummation of that which is being nullified."

Israel was blotting out their marriage covenenant with YHWH, even as it began. They were a rebellious wife.

They didn't want to be free of sin. They wanted to rebel in their own wicked ways.


14 But their apprehensions were calloused, for until this very day the same covering is remaining at the reading of the old covenant, not being uncovered."

They didn't want to hear his Torah, anymore than they could bear to see the light of his glory.


15 for only in Christ is it being nullified.

YHWH writes his law on our hearts in Yahshua. You can't just turn your eyes away, or put your fingers in your ears, as the Ruach Ha'Kodesh speaks what YHWH has planted at your core. If you walk with Yahshua; your wicked ways are behind you. The new covenant is in Messiah


But till today, if ever the reading of Moses should be reached, a covering is lying on their heart."

Israel didn't want to hear the Torah. It wasn't in their hearts. They didn't take their marriage vow seriously.

16 Yet if ever it should reach a turning back to the Lord, the covering is taken from about it.)"

Love of YHWH is keeping his Torah.

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,


17 Now the Lord is the spirit; yet where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."

Not the bondage of sin.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

(CLV) Ps 119:44
I shall indeed keep your law continually, For the eon and further.

(CLV) Ps 119:45
I shall indeed walk in wideness, (at liberty) For I have sought after Your precepts.




18 Now we all, with uncovered face, mirroring the Lord's glory, are being transformed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the spirit."

If we are YHWH's children; people should be able to see the Father in us. We should be a reflection of his glory.
 
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HARK!

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That's lame.
Are you claiming that the NAME of the day of the week determines which deity is being worshiped? What day of the week do you worship? SATURNday, perhaps? Every day of the week is named after an astronomical entity. All seven.

Constantine decreed (March 7, 321) dies Solis—day of the sun, "Sunday"—as the Roman day of rest just prior to the Council of Nicaea:

“On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for grain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost.”

Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ. (Canon 29 [A.D. 360]). (The Church Council of Laodicea circa 364 CE)

"The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third (fourth) Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day." The Catholic Encyclopedia Topic: Ten Commandments, 2nd paragraph

"We have made the change from the seventh day to the first day, from Saturday to Sunday, on the authority of the one holy, catholic, apostolic church of Christ."--Episcopalian Bishop Seymour said in "Why We Keep Sunday."
 
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Your calling to share the good news as you put it, consists of ignoring and seeking to overturn very plain statements in the new testament for they do not fit in with your doctrines.

Pot meet kettle.
 
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Saint Steven

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Constantine decreed (March 7, 321) dies Solis—day of the sun, "Sunday"—as the Roman day of rest just prior to the Council of Nicaea:

“On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for grain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost.”

Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ. (Canon 29 [A.D. 360]). (The Church Council of Laodicea circa 364 CE)

"The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third (fourth) Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day." The Catholic Encyclopedia Topic: Ten Commandments, 2nd paragraph

"We have made the change from the seventh day to the first day, from Saturday to Sunday, on the authority of the one holy, catholic, apostolic church of Christ."--Episcopalian Bishop Seymour said in "Why We Keep Sunday."
You are condemning the whole church outside of your particular flavor of Sabbatarianism then?
 
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You follow after the written code, and therefore cannot understand the spiritual reality(rom7:6)

Paul was not nullifying the law.

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

Obviously you don't comprehend what he was trying to tell you. You are to die to that which would lead you to transgress YHWH's law. Your doctrine is leading you to transgress YHWH's law. Let your doctrine die. You are to be reborn in obedience to YHWH's law.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.
 
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You are condemning the whole church outside of your particular flavor of Sabbatarianism then?

I didn't nor don't condemn anyone. If you're feeling any condemnation; take it up with the Ruach Ha'Kodesh.

I simply pointed out that YHWH's appointed day was changed, and how.
 
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Saint Steven

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(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.
Earlier in the same chapter.

Romans 3:21
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
 
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I didn't nor don't condemn anyone. If you're feeling any condemnation; take it up with the Ruach Ha'Kodesh.

I simply pointed out that YHWH's appointed day was changed, and how.
This is the problem with Sabbatarianism. Claiming that one day is holy condemns anyone who chooses another day. Your condemnation of others cannot be helped. And no, I don't feel condemned. I am calling you out for what your position means ultimately.

The Sabbath was made for Israel. Gentile Christians were not required to observe Jewish days. The Sabbath is a sign between Israel and God alone.

Exodus 31:13
“Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

Ezekiel 20:12
Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the Lord made them holy.

Ezekiel 20:20
Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us. Then you will know that I am the Lord your God.”
 
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Earlier in the same chapter.

Romans 3:21
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

I'm glad you brought this up.

Let's look at this chapter in its' greater context.

Excerpt: Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 3

18 There is no fear of God in front of their eyes.

Lawlessness.

Obviously those verses don't describe those who have come to faith.


19 Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

Paul makes it clear that those who break the law, are under the law; and that they'll be left speechless upon verdict. Those who break the law are under the consequence of breaking the law.

20 because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin."

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin, is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.


Should we then abandon the law?

Of course not! Works of the law is obedience to the law. It's against the law to speed in the U.S.. People who respect that law make a conscious effort to stay within the limits; however they inevitably get distracted sometimes and exceed them. Maybe they don't get caught; because their normal mode of behavior is to respect the law. YHWH sees all.

Now, one day maybe a law abiding driver does get caught. Maybe it was the first time in his life that he was ever distracted. Is that a defense for the violation; that he never broke the law before? NO! He wasn't supposed to break the law. Keeping the law is what was expected of him; but a righteous judge will take the driver's will to obedience into consideration, and extend grace.


21 Yet now, apart from law, a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets), 22 yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction, 23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God. 24 Being justified gratuitously in His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus" 25 (Whom God purposed for a Propitiatory shelter, through faith in His blood, for a display of His righteousness because of the passing over of the penalties of sins which occurred before in the forbearance of God),

This passage pertains to YHWH's righteousness, as in his patience, he passes over former sins, for those who come to faith. Does this mean that the law is abolished? Of course not, When the judge shows grace for a misstep; it's not a free pass to continue in lawlessness.


(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.
 
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The Sabbath was made for Israel. Gentile Christians were not required to observe Jewish days. The Sabbath is a sign between Israel and God alone.


Yahshua was commissioned only for the lost sheep of Israel.


10 For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days,the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people."

There will be one law for Israel and the stranger who dwells among them.

Who are you in covenant with?
 
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Saint Steven

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Should we then abandon the law?

Of course not! Works of the law is obedience to the law.
Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ;
you have fallen away from grace.
 
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Saint Steven

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Who are you in covenant with?
Hebrews 8:7, 13
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. ...
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
 
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Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ;
you have fallen away from grace.

Some people twist Paul's words to their own destruction.

What did Yahshua say?

(CLV) Mt 7:21
"Not everyone saying to Me `Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.
(CLV) Mt 7:22
Many will be declaring to Me in that day, `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'

(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'
 
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Hebrews 8:7, 13
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. ...
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

What will disappear. The Levitical Priesthood will be making sacrifices in the Millennial Kingdom by law.

Let's see what Yahsua says.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of THE LAW to fall.
 
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not under law

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Paul was not nullifying the law.

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

Obviously you don't comprehend what he was trying to tell you. You are to die to that which would lead you to transgress YHWH's law. Your doctrine is leading you to transgress YHWH's law. Let your doctrine die. You are to be reborn in obedience to YHWH's law.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.
In relation to Rom3:31, Paul spent the previous ten verses telling his readers, they had no righteousness of obeying the law and were justified apart from deeds of the law, they had righteousness apart from law. What would some of his readers have thought? Same as what many believe today, it is a licence to ignore the law. Hence verse31
I wonder which law you relate to 1John 3:9
The example Paul gave as to why he had to die to the law related to the law only he and God need know he broke. I wonder if you relate that law to obeying God's precepts.
So does 1John3:9 apply to you where breaking the law relating to the inner man is concerned, the law only you and God need know you break? As you said, and I agree, break one law you break them all.
As for which law should be followed. Your law is written in ink, mine is not. You only decided which law you should follow through reading written law, so it was not firstly in your heart and mind was it
 
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not under law

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Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom3:20-31

The op accepts the law mentioned in the last verse relates to applicable law, therefore so does all of the emboldened. Paul is making one long statement concerning the same law. The believer is justified apart from the deeds of the law, righteousness without the law is manifest, by the deeds of the law no one will be justified/righteous. I guess more scripture twisting will be needed now! So who comprehends the verses?
 
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