Is Hell Always Forever?

In the end I believe it only matters whether you are for god or for the devil. The amount of sin that you carry in the end does not matter. You cannot be with god and the devil at the same time.
Therefore it doesn't matter whether you are the most evil person in the world, or just a bit evil.
Therefore we have to choose side. And I pray that people wake up and realize it in time.

Edit: And for some reason I believe that in the past the lines could be foggy but as we get nearer the Judgement Day, we are being forced to choose.

God bless.

rturner76 said:

Just anecdotal evidence...

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You understand what that's worth?

The fact is there are four main positions, not two, and the RCC view of purgatory is one of them.

Literal
Metaphorical
Purgatorial
Conditional

rturner76 said:

Yes, I was trying to convey that I am not coming from a place of authority on the subject.

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So you're trying to work out this matter of hell's potentially eternal nature and you're trying to do so from a liberal (practicing? or non-practicing?) Catholic point of view.


How come?

rturner76 said:

It is fascinating that I for example, believe in some type of purgatory while most Protestants would find that laughable and we both say we are Christians using divinely inspired writing.

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I don't have a problem with members of the RCC, rturner. That being said, the RCC does not base its view of purgatory entirely on scripture and what they do base on scripture is not a canon upon which the Prots would agree. You base your view on some type of purgatory based on apocryphal texts, not holy canon. You base your view on some form of purgatory on Tradition. Neither is "inspired writing." We are, therefore, not both Christians using divinely inspired writing.


Now, you personally may make the cause for your position using only divinely inspired writing but that is not what the RCC has done doctrinally.

rturner76 said:

I enjoy dialog about these topics because one, I want to see what churches tend to agree about.

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Do you enjoy dialogue where we disagree?

rturner76 said:

Second I want to always search for the truth on any issue.

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What are you now doing with the truth I just posted? What do you now do with the truth the RCC bases its view of purgatory partly on apocrypha and Tradition?

rturner76 said:

In my personal opinion, God gave us information through scribes and authors.

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Hmmmmm... "scribes"? Are these "scribes" inspired? Are these scribes recording what the inspired authors have told them to record? Or are these scribes more akin to the Jewish rabbinical tradition in which wise men may have diverse povs and all them be correct in some form?

If the latter then this contradicts the premise of agreement based (solely) upon divinely inspired writing.

rturner76 said:

We can't go back and ask Christ or St Paul to clarify what they meant when they said xyz.

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I agree, but we can accept them at their word regarding that which is plainly stated and the long- and well-established rules of exegesis get us a very long way to understanding and there is always some agreement within the competing hermeneutical approaches.

rturner76 said:

So I have a "religion" where I worship with other Roman Catholics....

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Digressive. Noted as such and treated accordingly. Good content for a separate op, though.

rturner76 said:

I run into this with many Protestants. Understandably because their Bibles have those book removed. What's ironic is that The Catholic Bishops between 300 and 400 AD decided the official Biblical [Canon]. So when you mention the [Canon], do you mean the actual [Canon], or the one altered one by some people who didn't think they were important?

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lol. The RCC Canon is altered, rt. You should run into this with your fellow RCs, too! The point I was endeavoring to make was solely in reference to the premise of relying upon "inspired writings." The reliance upon inspired writings might be true in your specific case (I don't know you personally or what you specifically believe), but it is not true of Catholic doctrine pertaining to purgatory. That is the only point I was endeavoring to make.

The apocrypha is acknowledged as having to do with unknown origin. I believe Augustine used the phrase "obscure origin." I will concede my knowledge of this history is wanting but the whole of the RCC Canon wasn't set until the Council of Trent and that's not until the 1500! Even then I believe the books of Edras were left out. The RCC OT canon contains books the Jews did not include in their canon. Remember also most of the early Protestants were Catholics thinking and speaking as Catholics. When Luther viewed these books as uninspired he did so as a Catholic. The neither of the oldest complete manuscripts, Codex Vaticanus or Codex Sinaiticus, contain first and second Maccabees from which RCC doctrines on purgatory and prayers for the dead are based. Nor are they in the Dead Sea Scrolls. I don't need to take a Protestant view to post what I have posted; I can do so writing solely from within the RCC's own metrics.

To the degree the RCC has set its doctrine of purgatory on Matthew 12, 1 Corinthians 3 and 1 Peter 1 we have common ground in inspired writing, but outside of that there is no inspired writing for the RCC doctrine of purgatory. And, when interpreting those three authors the RCC will appeal to Tradition, not exegesis.

Look, you can believe in purgatory. That's okay with me. I don't believe that is the correct view of what happens at death but you believe what you want. What you cannot do is claim the RCC view of purgatory is based solely on inspired writings because that is incorrect.

rturner76 said:

That's exactly what I was talking about before. For you "the truth" does not include the Apocrypha or purgatory.

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I never said any such thing.

rturner76 said:

For me the truth is the original Biblical Cannon.

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Which does not include First and Second Maccabees.

rturner76 said:

I mean if the writing was included before, who decided to chuck it out? Did he have "the truth" or did the early church fathers?

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Great questions. All off-topic, but great questions. If you don't know the answers then you should not be relying upon answers to questions you don't know. There's no truth in that.

rturner76 said:

Scribes just record what someone is saying or they copy other writing. Inspired writing didn't float down from heaven. Men had to write it then other men had to decide it was inspired. Men also disagree with each other, and men make mistakes, so I don't see The Bible as a perfect infallible document.

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I completely agree.

rturner76 said:

People wrote books while the Apostles were still alive.....

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None of which would be inspired.

rturner76 said:

What I noticed is that in many places where hell or time is being described the word aeo'n is used. The literal Greek translation of the word is "an age" or "a length of time." In most of the English translations we use, the word "everlasting", "eternal" or a similar word basically meaning Forever.

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Well, it is the same word used for "eternal/everlasting" life, so if we question the length of eternal punishment, we must equally question the length of eternal life. What do we make of the "eternal" Spirit spoken of in Hebrews 9:14? How about the "eternal" covenant in Hebrews 13:20? I mean it is even used for the kingdom of God.

I'm not an expert on Greek, nor do I pretend to be, but if you look in the concordance it seems apparent that this word is frequently used for things that are indeed eternal, such as God (Romans 16:26).

OldWiseGuy said:

This can be interpreted several ways.

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To interpret your way out of judgement and everlasting punishment is rather very convenient.



Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Johan_1988 said:

To interpret your way out of judgement and everlasting punishment is rather very convenient.



Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

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Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

I have been active at CF for more than two decades. I have heard the argument that "αἰώνιος/aionios" never means eternal I could post the definition from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich, one of , in not the, most highly accredited Greek lexicons available. But some folks reject it as biased. Without evidence I might add. So I did this word study in the NT alone.
…..Some people claim that αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios cannot mean eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
But neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament as in the following verses.
…..In 9 of these verses Jesus has defined “aionios” as eternal. Jesus used the word “aionios” 29 times, Jesus never uses “aionios” to refer to something which cannot be eternal.
In 10 verses Paul has defined “aionios” as eternal.
In twenty four [24] of the following verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
List of verses cited:1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33,Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26, John 3:36 , John 4:14, John 6:27
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, which is is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”

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[Post #73 continued]

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent

Now having established the meaning of "aionios", see posts #72-73, above, which I think undeniably show that "aionios" does mean eternal, everlasting, unending etc.
Another argument that some folks make is that the word "κολασιν/kolasis" translated "punishment" in Matthew 25:26 does not mean "punishment" but "correction.""Kolasis" occurs in one other verse in the NT.
Note in this verse that the person who has fear /kolasis is not made perfect is not corrected. Thus the punishment in Matt 25:46 is punishment and it is eternal.

About Hell here:

Calvin quote

God Bless!