When is good, not good enough?

DamianWarS

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Christ tells us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. But it seems there is some debate as to what good acts are allowed and what good acts should be left for another day.

here are two examples:

1. My unbelieving neighbour is building a shed on the Sabbath and has no help but it looks like he could use some help. Is it good for me to help him on the Sabbath?

2. While building the shed the roof falls down on him, is it good for me to run to his aid and help him?
I would take most would allow option 2, but it seems option 1 is not so widely accepted. What if I were to add that my neighbour was depressed and although the roof didn't collapse on him the building of the shed didn't help his depression and later that night he committed suicide. Knowing this information can we return to option 1 and say it would have been good to help him build the shed on the Sabbath?

Does this seem like an unfair hypothetical? It's not so unrealistic even though it is on the extreme end. If we accept however the extreme how far can we dial it back and it still be called good?

He is an unbeliever so saving his life doesn't have to be lifting fallen wood of his body or cheering him up when he's depressed. It may mean engaging with him using opportunities that are right in front of you rather than ones that are out of reach for the sake of the gospel. Many people choose to do jobs like this on the Sabbath because they have the time to do it and they want to take advantaged of good weather (assuming there is some). So the scenario is quite plausible (even if the depression part is less plausible).

When we refuse to engage in these areas we create a sacred and secular divide implicitly showing that God cannot reach them. I would rather pick up a hammer and walk over to my neighbour and show him God can reach him right where he is.
 

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One thing rarely discussed in christian circles was the rabbinic teaching that directly impacts this; indeed, our Lord appealed to it in several instances.

When in conflict, a positive command (Thou shalt ...) trumps a negative command; (thou shalt NOT ...) with a couple of exceptions.

The command to save/preserve life trumped the prohibition of working on the Sabbath.
 
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TzephanYahu

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Shalom @DamianWarS

Option 1 would not be permitted. Option 2 would be.

Building the shed on the Sabbath is not mandatory work or needed to help someone urgently. It is just convenient timing for your neighbour. Therefore, if you were to help him you would be breaking the Sabbath and sending a bad example for him to follow, if he did become a believer.

If he would need cheering up with depression this could be done on the Sabbath but not in the form of non-mandatory working. You could assist him on any of the other six days though!

Look at it this way - the Creator of the universe asked us not to work on Sabbath. However, He showed through His Son that if you can help someone in need on the Sabbath then you should. Not just any need (building), but a real need of love or care. But, if there is no such opportunity, then rest is the rule. Now, you helping this guy do his work is just you working. You wouldn't be working directly to help a soul in need, but indirectly to only potentially help him.

In summary, help him with the shed every other day if you wish but rest on the Sabbath. If he asks why, you are in a great position to witness to him and maybe even encourage him to take a Sabbath (whether he believes or not), which might even help with his depression. However, on the Sabbath, if his health or life is in danger - work would be permitted to help him. Also if he knocked on your door on the Sabbath seeking someone to talk to about his depression, invite him in and work to make him comfortable and loved. These things are good to do. But, assisting him break the Sabbath just with a hope of witnessing is just a violation on your part as it's unnecessary (non-mandatory). And again, it's a bad example to set.

I hope something in that makes sense!

Love & Shalom
 
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GospelS

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If we walk by the Spirit, we naturally and freely keep the law, even unbeknownst to us.

Good Samaritan kept the law while the priest and Levite that passed-by did not.

Because the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
 
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BobRyan

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Christ tells us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. But it seems there is some debate as to what good acts are allowed and what good acts should be left for another day.

here are two examples:

1. My unbelieving neighbour is building a shed on the Sabbath and has no help but it looks like he could use some help. Is it good for me to help him on the Sabbath?

2. While building the shed the roof falls down on him, is it good for me to run to his aid and help him?
I would take most would allow option 2, but it seems option 1 is not so widely accepted.

Indeed.

We would run out of church to help a man whose home had collapsed on him right next to the church.

But we would not all run out of church any time some neighbor in a home near the church needed some help in his yard or working on a project. Because in that case he is not enduring "human suffering". It is good to relieve suffering even on the Sabbath. But there are many good things like "repainting the back porch" that are "secular" they are not a humanitarian "Crisis" .

This is where Isaiah 58:13 comes to mind. Doing secular activity.
 
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Christ tells us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. But it seems there is some debate as to what good acts are allowed and what good acts should be left for another day.

here are two examples:

1. My unbelieving neighbour is building a shed on the Sabbath and has no help but it looks like he could use some help. Is it good for me to help him on the Sabbath?

2. While building the shed the roof falls down on him, is it good for me to run to his aid and help him?
I would take most would allow option 2, but it seems option 1 is not so widely accepted. What if I were to add that my neighbour was depressed and although the roof didn't collapse on him the building of the shed didn't help his depression and later that night he committed suicide. Knowing this information can we return to option 1 and say it would have been good to help him build the shed on the Sabbath?

Does this seem like an unfair hypothetical? It's not so unrealistic even though it is on the extreme end. If we accept however the extreme how far can we dial it back and it still be called good?

He is an unbeliever so saving his life doesn't have to be lifting fallen wood of his body or cheering him up when he's depressed. It may mean engaging with him using opportunities that are right in front of you rather than ones that are out of reach for the sake of the gospel. Many people choose to do jobs like this on the Sabbath because they have the time to do it and they want to take advantaged of good weather (assuming there is some). So the scenario is quite plausible (even if the depression part is less plausible).

When we refuse to engage in these areas we create a sacred and secular divide implicitly showing that God cannot reach them. I would rather pick up a hammer and walk over to my neighbour and show him God can reach him right where he is.

Under the Old Covenant (before the cross), the OT saint was not allowed to do servile work. Even if they were to see an unbelieving Gentile build a structure on the Sabbath, they were not allowed to help them (even if it meant that they were to put themselves in danger). If the shed were to fall on them, you would get them out from underneath the shed and then you could witness to them.

Under the New Covenant: The Saturday Sabbath is no longer in effect anymore. Jesus is our Sabbath rest. Colossians 2:14-17 makes it clear that the ordinances (like the Sabbaths, dietary laws, etc.) have been nailed to the cross, and we are not to let another person try and judge in keeping the Sabbaths, dietary laws, etc.

Anyways, seeing the Sabbath is no longer binding anymore, you are now free to help your neighbor build that shed today. But if you lived during the Old Covenant time (before the time of Christ), you technically could be stoned for disobeying the Sabbath. Helping one's neighbor's animal out of a pit is a situation where the man's livestock is at risk (His food supply is at risk). It is showing love for the animal and for one's own livelihood. According to the Bible: General servile work is forbidden in the Old Testament time. A man who collected sticks on the Sabbath was put to death by stoning. But the good news is that we are not under the Old Covenant. We are under a New Covenant (New Testament) with better promises.
 
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are you saying helping your neighbour build a shed doesn't effectively demonstrate love or care?

Jesus says we are to love Him more than our father, mother, brother, etc.; So while the Old Covenant was in effect (Which was before the cross), a person did have to keep the Sabbath. After the cross: They did not have to keep the Sabbath. Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (like the Sabbaths) (See: Colossians 2:14-17).
 
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BobRyan

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Under the New Covenant: The Saturday Sabbath is no longer in effect anymore.

Here is what the New Covenant actually says.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”


And it is found again in Hebrews 8 - unchanged.

What is interesting is that there is nothing there about "and I will get rid of the Saturday Sabbath"
 
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BobRyan

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After the cross: They did not have to keep the Sabbath. Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (like the Sabbaths) (See: Colossians 2:14-17).

Col 2 says that the "certificate of debt" is what was nailed to the cross - not the commandments of God.
And Mark 2:27 says the "Sabbath was made FOR mankind" not 'against mankind'.
Isaiah 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross "all mankind" will come before God to worship.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the commandments of God" where "the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 is still the 5th commandment.
 
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There will be times/days when you need to just be with the Lord and care less about things of the world. God loves some father and child alone time with us, which is our need, to strengthen us and this important relationship that we share with Him.

Mary, who sat at the Lord's feet and listened to his teaching. But Martha was distracted with much serving. And she went up to him and said, “Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Tell her then to help me.” But the Lord answered her, “Martha, Martha, you are anxious and troubled about many things, but one thing is necessary. Mary has chosen the good portion, which will not be taken away from her.” Luke 10:39-42


"Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.” Matthew 8:22
 
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Here is what the New Covenant actually says.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”


And it is found again in Hebrews 8 - unchanged.

What is interesting is that there is nothing there about "and I will get rid of the Saturday Sabbath"

The New Covenant went into effect with Christ's death. Jeremiah 31 is in reference to Israel. But Israel as a nation will not accept this New Covenant until shortly before Christ's 2nd coming. This will then usher in a new era for Israel (i.e. the 1,000 year reign of Christ). For right now we are not living in a time where, the following verse is true:

"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, "‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,”" (Jeremiah 31:34).​

Only in the Millennium can this verse be true. In the Millennium, everyone will know the Lord and so nobody is going to be saying to each other to "Know the Lord."

Also, in Jeremiah 31:31-32 says, "...I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake"

A New Covenant implies new laws or commands.
In fact, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
 
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Col 2 says that the "certificate of debt" is what was nailed to the cross - not the commandments of God.
And Mark 2:27 says the "Sabbath was made FOR mankind" not 'against mankind'.
Isaiah 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross "all mankind" will come before God to worship.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the commandments of God" where "the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 is still the 5th commandment.

Scripture tells me that I am not to allow any man to judge me (Which would include you) in regards to the Sabbath days.

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"
(Colossians 2:17).

Why?

Because...

11 "...Christ:"
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (KJV).
16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: (KJV).
17 "These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body [that casts the shadow] belongs to Christ." (GW).
(Colossians 2:11, Colossians 2:14, Colossians 2:16-17).
 
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BobRyan

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Under the New Covenant: The Saturday Sabbath is no longer in effect anymore.

Here is what the New Covenant actually says.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”


And it is found again in Hebrews 8 - unchanged.

What is interesting is that there is nothing there about "and I will get rid of the Saturday Sabbath"

The New Covenant went into effect with Christ's death. Jeremiah 31 is in reference to Israel.

Hebrews 8 applies it to all Christians just as it was in Jer 31.

Heb 8
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.

And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
11 “And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.
12 “For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.”


Another great place to notice that there is nothing there about "and I will get rid of the Saturday Sabbath"

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"?

"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, "‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,”" (Jeremiah 31:34).​

Only in the Millennium can this verse be true.

My hope is that you do not believe you will not be under the New Covenant until the millennium


Also, in Jeremiah 31:31-32 says, "...I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake"

A New Covenant implies new laws or commands.
In fact, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

Hebrews 7 says that the laws regarding the priesthood -- the fact that Christ is our High Priest and is not from the Tribe of Levi - is "the change".

It does not say "disregard the command to not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 as I am sure you will agree.

It also says nothing about the "Saturday Sabbath" being done away with any more than Lev 19:18 is done away with or that Deut 6:5 is done away with or Ex 20:12 is done away with or that Ex 20:7 is done away with.
 
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BobRyan

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After the cross: They did not have to keep the Sabbath. Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (like the Sabbaths) (See: Colossians 2:14-17).

Col 2 says that the "certificate of debt" is what was nailed to the cross - not the commandments of God.
And Mark 2:27 says the "Sabbath was made FOR mankind" not 'against mankind'.

Isaiah 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross "all mankind" will come before God to worship.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the commandments of God" where "the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 is still the 5th commandment.

Scripture tells me that I am not to allow any man to judge me .

And that is no change from before the cross as Christ points out in Matthew 7:1-6 -- a great example of "not changed after the cross" because it was already that way before the cross.
 
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Situation 1 is not a “donkey in a ditch” scenario

situation 2 would be.

to suggest that helping someone who is hurt on the Sabbath is the same as actually working and breaking the Sabbath is silly.

Would you drive a car-less prostitute to her different clients?

Surely she could use your help getting around town to her next customer. What’s the harm In helping her sin? She needs your help, after all.
 
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Col 2 says that the "certificate of debt" is what was nailed to the cross - not the commandments of God.
And Mark 2:27 says the "Sabbath was made FOR mankind" not 'against mankind'.

Isaiah 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross "all mankind" will come before God to worship.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the commandments of God" where "the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 is still the 5th commandment.



And that is no change from before the cross as Christ points out in Matthew 7:1-6 -- a great example of "not changed after the cross" because it was already that way before the cross.

I quoted Colossians 2:14, and Colossians 2:16, and they are plain in what they say. You either believe them in what they plainly say or you don't believe them. I believe that Christ has nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us. These ordinances are spoken of in verse 16. Verse 16 says (of these ordinances) that I am not to let any man judge me according to Sabbaths because that is what it plainly says. I believe that. It does not say "All Sabbaths except the Saturday Sabbath." There is no use of going back and forth on this point if you cannot see what Colossians 2:14, and Colossians 2:16 is plainly saying.
 
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DamianWarS

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Indeed.

We would run out of church to help a man whose home had collapsed on him right next to the church.

But we would not all run out of church any time some neighbor in a home near the church needed some help in his yard or working on a project. Because in that case he is not enduring "human suffering". It is good to relieve suffering even on the Sabbath. But there are many good things like "repainting the back porch" that are "secular" they are not a humanitarian "Crisis" .

This is where Isaiah 58:13 comes to mind. Doing secular activity.
Are you saying "doing good" on the sabbath only is in regards with helping those is physical distress? Where do you get such a specific definition of "good"?
 
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DamianWarS

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Would you drive a car-less prostitute to her different clients?

Surely she could use your help getting around town to her next customer. What’s the harm In helping her sin? She needs your help, after all.

the prostitute example is a straw man. I am referring to acts of good that you would otherwise deem as acts of good on any other day. I'm not here to debate what acts towards a prostitute is good or not which is why I deliberately use a neighbour building a shed example as I thought this act on any other day wouldn't be controversial.

So before you post another straw man I'm not debating what is generally thought as of good and broadly let's define it as "doing things for God" and let's assume that even though there may be some variance on the term we can still talk about it constructively using the concept of goodness rather then debate what is good and what is not. But if that's your struggle you are welcome to open another thread to talk about dealings with prostitutes

Situation 1 is not a “donkey in a ditch” scenario

You will have to unpack the “donkey in a ditch” scenario. is this the only reason why we may go outside the letter of the law?

situation 2 would be.

to suggest that helping someone who is hurt on the Sabbath is the same as actually working and breaking the Sabbath is silly.

situation 1 is about a strategic focus not about random stuff you do. strategic in the sense of your focus is to disciple that person into faith in Christ and helping them build a shed builds to that goal. So it is more than just general helping but helping with a missional strategy. Of course this begs the question shouldn't all our acts be strategic then? I would say yes but perhaps that's another conversation.
 
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BobRyan

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Are you saying "doing good" on the sabbath only is in regards with helping those is physical distress? Where do you get such a specific definition of "good"?
Because there are "good" secular activities not allowed according to Isaiah 58:13 and "not rest" according to Exodus 20:8-11 and "not holy convocation" according to Lev 23:2 -- that are fine to do -- but not for Sabbath.

On the other hand all the "good" that you see Jesus do on the Sabbath is in the form of healing not fishing, not house building, not lawn mowing or sawing wood or making benches.
 
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