2PhiloVoid

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Care to guess why they are at a loss? Because what they experience and what they read are two different things.



See point above.

This is why Christians continue to believe the Bible is true. When they see a contradiction between the promise and reality, they start to make excuses and create new meaning so the original promise becomes twisted.

"Greater works" becomes "not greater works"!



Who is coming up with this things? Raising the dead takes no power, but only words. How difficult is it to say things?



Your commentator misses the point. Miracle power was promised by Jesus to whoever believes, not just the Apostles. So, why won't the Christians on these forums stop COVID19 and empty the hospitals by their faith?

Because IF Covid-19 is a judgement of God, and there's always the possibility that it could be, then we can pray till we're blue in the face and it's STILL going to run roughshod over everyone, including Christians.

Or haven't you noticed the Prophetic Patterns laid out in the Bible, especially in the Book of Revelation?
 
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BigV

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Or haven't you noticed the Prophetic Patterns laid out in the Bible, especially in the Book of Revelation?

I have noticed the pattern of broken promises, as recorded in Matthew's Gospel. Jesus was supposed to come back before 'this' generation pass away. Well, he hasn't. So, why should anyone care about the Revelation?

Do you know what Martin Luther said about Revelation? He said

Why did Martin Luther discard the book of Revelation?

Again, they are supposed to be blessed who keep what is written in this book; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it. This is just the same as if we did not have the book at all.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I have noticed the pattern of broken promises, as recorded in Matthew's Gospel. Jesus was supposed to come back before 'this' generation pass away. Well, he hasn't. So, why should anyone care about the Revelation?
That's because people interpret and often see what they want to see; but when you finally get to studying the underlying Jewish idiom that permeates the statements of the New Testament, the actual meanings take on a different tinge ...

...and what Jesus said would happen did happen within the lifetime of those who heard Him. Hence, the Destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

Do you know what Martin Luther said about Revelation? He said

Why did Martin Luther discard the book of Revelation?
Why would I care about what Luther said in all cases? He was just another Christian like any other Christian, with his own perceptions and biases and placement in the history of the world. Do you think I'm Lutheran or ultra-Protestant or something? I'm not!
 
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BigV

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That's because people interpret and often see what they want to see;

I'm only discussing the text. But it's notable that Christian interpreters start saying.. "Difficult to interpret". It's not because they don't understand what the text actually says. It's because it doesn't correspond to reality. That is the cause of difficulty.

..and what Jesus said would happen did happen within the lifetime of those who heard Him. Hence, the Destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

Read it again. Destruction of Jerusalem was only one item from a long list of the "ALL THESE THINGS" that were supposed to happen before the generation of people listening to him pass away.

Why would I care about what Luther said in all cases?

His take on the Revelation is common among Christians. Few Christians have a clue on what the book is supposed to mean.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I'm only discussing the text. But it's notable that Christian interpreters start saying.. "Difficult to interpret". It's not because they don't understand what the text actually says. It's because it doesn't correspond to reality. That is the cause of difficulty.
You say that with the candor of confidence. Well, so be it, but it basically comes down to the fact that when you're arguing with me, you're arguing more or less against the sources from which I draw my own understanding on Scripture.

Read it again. Destruction of Jerusalem was only one item from a long list of the "ALL THESE THINGS" that were supposed to happen before the generation of people listening to him pass away.
Let's read it together, again---shall we? You start since you're so good at picking out scriptures and retaining their context in doing so. o_O

His take on the Revelation is common among Christians. Few Christians have a clue on what the book is supposed to mean.
And that can be remedied.
 
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BigV

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You say that with the candor of confidence. Well, so be it, but it basically comes down to the fact that when you're arguing with me, you're arguing more or less against the sources from which I draw my own understanding on Scripture.

Look up soniclight.com, Dr Constable commentary. He says, about Matthew's end times prophecies that they are one of the most difficult passages to interpret.

Secondly, it's no secret that the first Christians expected Jesus' return in their lifetime. What were they basing their belief on? The passages that claimed Jesus was very near, right at the door, coming quickly, etc... And the passages where Jesus was supposed to arrive before 'this generation' passes away.

Well, none of that happened. And the Old Testament warns against following prophets who make false predictions.
 
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SPF

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Your commentator misses the point. Miracle power was promised by Jesus to whoever believes, not just the Apostles.
Actually you're the one missing the point. This was a conversation between Jesus and the Apostles. If Jesus was living on earth right now and had 12 Apostles, and He had this conversation with them, someone wrote it down, and I was at home reading about the conversation that Jesus had with His Apostles, I wouldn't assume that He was talking to me. I would assume He was talking to His Apostles.

It's not a problem passage for me in the least.

No offense, but an atheist who doesn't believe in God isn't going to be able to do much to convince a Christian that he understands what Scripture says better than they do. I really am not really even sure why you spend time on this forum. It's clearly not so you can learn anything.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Look up soniclight.com, Dr Constable commentary. He says, about Matthew's end times prophecies that they are one of the most difficult passages to interpret.
Well, do you believe in fair play? If so, here's how it's going to work; for every source you point me to, you get to look up one of my sources and address it in equal proportion. Deal?

Secondly, it's no secret that the first Christians expected Jesus' return in their lifetime. What were they basing their belief on? The passages that claimed Jesus was very near, right at the door, coming quickly, etc... And the passages where Jesus was supposed to arrive before 'this generation' passes away.
And where are these passages in the Bible? And who was Jesus talking to? And does it seem that Jesus gave his audiences, or even His own disciples for that matter, ALL OF THE DETAILS THAT ARE, AND WERE TO BE, UNDER THE PROVINCE OF GOD'S SOVEREIGN KNOWLEDGE?

Yes or No?

Well, none of that happened. And the Old Testament warns against following prophets who make false predictions.
No, I rather think Jesus hit things spot on. Is it His fault that we have a difficult time understanding something that Jesus Himself didn't have all of the details on?
 
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BigV

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Well, do you believe in fair play? If so, here's how it's going to work; for every source you point me to, you get to look up one of my sources and address it in equal proportion. Deal?

I'm not citing Richard Carrier when quoting a Bible Commentary! I'm sending you a link to Dr Constable, a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary. Are you suggesting he doesn't understand the Gospels? Why wouldn't you accept what he has to say?


Is it His fault that we have a difficult time understanding something that Jesus Himself didn't have all of the details on?

Jesus himself didn't understand what he was promising?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I'm not citing Richard Carrier when quoting a Bible Commentary! I'm sending you a link to Dr Constable, a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary. Are you suggesting he doesn't understand the Gospels? Why wouldn't you accept what he has to say?
I never just "go with" one school of theology, and in this case, I'm going to more or less assume that Dr. Constable, as educated and interesting as he may be, and even insightful on various points, doesn't get to press home the matter simply by asserting a Dispensationalist framework. (You do realize that Dallas Theological Seminary is primarily Dispensationalist, right?)

No, I'd be reading and engaging various positions and points of view dealing with various interpretive problems, particularly where Prophecy is concerned.

Jesus himself didn't understand what he was promising?
... I thought you knew the bible inside and out? Why are you asking me?
 
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