Clizby WampusCat

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I don't find it that difficult to discern. This is very hard to comprehend as an atheist, but the reality is that I have a personal, real, and intimate relationship with God. I have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of me, and as I spend time daily reading Scripture, praying, and engaging with the Spirit, He does, in some mystical fashion guide me, convict me, teach me, and continually point me towards Christ.
If Christians have a real, personal relationship with God that leads them to the correct reading of scripture why are there such diverse and contradictory doctrines within the community of Christians?

If you can demonstrate with sufficient evidence that you have a relationship with God then I will believe you, until then I will not believe you. I am not saying you are wrong, just that there is insufficient evidence to believe your claim.

I don't know your story of walking away from Christianity, but the vast vast majority of people I encounter that have walked away, if they're honest, usually start with them acknowledging that they didn't regularly read and meditate on Scripture, weren't actively involved in a local Church, and really just let their relationship suffer. Relationships work two ways.
Nope, I was a full on 100% dedicated Christian for most of my christian life. I believed I had a relationship with God, could discern scripture with the HS and the gospel was true. I went to church and was active in the church for most of my time, I taught adults and children bible classes etc, etc.
 
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SPF

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If Christians have a real, personal relationship with God that leads them to the correct reading of scripture why are there such diverse and contradictory doctrines within the community of Christians?
There's lots of reasons. I think a big reason is that people may think the Holy Spirit is giving them some truth when in fact he's not, and in reality it's just their opinion. I don't believe the role of the Holy Spirit is to outline all theological Truths in some excel spreadsheet. His role is to point people towards Christ. I don't need the Spirit to reveal to me if the rapture is made up, pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib to know Christ, and so I doubt He has done so.

What matters is Christ crucified and resurrected. That is the heart of the Gospel, and that is what the Holy Spirit is concerned with - revealing that Truth.

I think we as fallen, finite people, unfortunately do a good job of muddying the waters and hindering the Holy Spirit.

If you can demonstrate with sufficient evidence that you have a relationship with God then I will believe you.
I can't. You don't believe God exists, until you deal with that you'll never believe I have a relationship with Him.

Nope, I was a full on 100% dedicated Christian for most of my christian life.
Well, just like I can't demonstrate that I have a relationship with God, you also can't demonstrate that you did have one.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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There's lots of reasons. I think a big reason is that people may think the Holy Spirit is giving them some truth when in fact he's not, and in reality it's just their opinion. I don't believe the role of the Holy Spirit is to outline all theological Truths in some excel spreadsheet. His role is to point people towards Christ. I don't need the Spirit to reveal to me if the rapture is made up, pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib to know Christ, and so I doubt He has done so.

What matters is Christ crucified and resurrected. That is the heart of the Gospel, and that is what the Holy Spirit is concerned with - revealing that Truth.

I think we as fallen, finite people, unfortunately do a good job of muddying the waters and hindering the Holy Spirit.
Did not know we can thwart what God wants, does he want all to be saved?

Also, there are Christians that do not believe Jesus was an atonement for sin or was resurrected.

I can't. You don't believe God exists, until you deal with that you'll never believe I have a relationship with Him.
I will if you have sufficient evidence. We don't get to choose what we believe. We are either connived by the evidence or we are not. If you have convincing evidence for me then I will have no option but to believe.

Well, just like I can't demonstrate that I have a relationship with God, you also can't demonstrate that you did have one.
Sure, but you sure implied that I did not.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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If Christians have a real, personal relationship with God that leads them to the correct reading of scripture why are there such diverse and contradictory doctrines within the community of Christians?

If you can demonstrate with sufficient evidence that you have a relationship with God then I will believe you, until then I will not believe you. I am not saying you are wrong, just that there is insufficient evidence to believe your claim.

Nope, I was a full on 100% dedicated Christian for most of my christian life. I believed I had a relationship with God, could discern scripture with the HS and the gospel was true. I went to church and was active in the church for most of my time, I taught adults and children bible classes etc, etc.

... what exactly does it mean when Christians say "I can discern Scripture with ONLY the help of the Holy Spirit." Does this mean they can just interpret the Bible all by their individual selves and fully understand its meaning without the help of any other human being involved?

I mean, I've studied the essential principle of 'illumination', but the way it's been conceptualized in fundamentalistic churches, I've never, ever been able to figure out how their interpretation about a verse that is, itself, about ... "interpretation"... is supposed to work. Is it magic?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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That sounds like a Pentecostal answer. I've never been a fundamentalist, so when I read the rest of the New Testament and see that interpretation and understanding involves the Church as a social, interactive union of people, all working as a Body in Christ, I'm wondering how folks ever come to the conclusion that one, single verse in the bible somehow trumps all other verses that seem to indicate a different dynamic in how we handle and understand the Gospel Message. :scratch:
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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That sounds like a Pentecostal answer. I've never been a fundamentalist, so when I read the rest of the New Testament and see that interpretation and understanding involves the Church as a social, interactive union of people, all working as a Body in Christ, I'm wondering how folks ever come to the conclusion that one, single verse in the bible somehow trumps all other verses that seem to indicate a different dynamic in how we handle and understand the Gospel Message. :scratch:
No its an atheists answer. Religion cannot be distinguished from magic. Why can't the miracles in the bible be just as explained by magic as by a God?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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No its an atheists answer. Religion cannot be distinguished from magic. Why can't the miracles in the bible be just as explained by magic as by a God?

That's not my point. I'm only looking at verses like John 14:26, 15:26, and 16:13. But then we find verses elsewhere indicating that there's a need for "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers" etc. (e.g. Ephesians 4:11-12)

Why are any of these later guys and gals even indicated as being 'needed' in the Church IF the Holy Spirit Himself is just going to magically endow each and every Christian with a special understanding about ..... well, about SOMETHING?

So, if a teacher shows up and teaches me something [like the meaning of prayer in Matthew 18], it's my understanding THAT teacher/student interaction isn't magic. It's just a person showing up, even if in the name of Jesus, and teaching me something, something I might not have known on my own otherwise, and it isn't really that the Holy Spirit us just going to enlighten my mind as I sit all by myself with a bible while staring out the window.
 
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SPF

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Did not know we can thwart what God wants, does he want all to be saved?
I think the more fundamental question for you is whether or not God exists in the first place. I see no benefit in engaging in "in-house" theological discussions with someone who isn't in the house.

Also, there are Christians that do not believe Jesus was an atonement for sin or was resurrected.
Well, there are certainly people who think that. I'm not sure if those people would refer to themselves as followers of Christ.

I will if you have sufficient evidence. We don't get to choose what we believe. We are either connived by the evidence or we are not. If you have convincing evidence for me then I will have no option but to believe.
This notion of us not having the ability to choose our beliefs may have become popular as of late, but it's really not true.

"If we are essentially forced to believe things and cannot choose to believe anything, then it is irrelevant whether that which we believe in is true or false. We believe because were forced to believe, not because we weigh the evidence, apply logic, and choose to believe something. Furthermore, it would mean that the position that "we don't have the ability to choose what we believe" can't be shown to be true - because we're forced to believe it regardless of its truth value. since we cannot show it to be true, we cannot rely on the statement "we don't have the ability to choose what we believe." Essentially, the position refutes itself. It refutes itself, then we ought not believe it. In fact, we should choose not to believe it's true. But if we choose to believe it's not true, then we are choosing to believe that we can choose to believe." Can you choose to believe something? | CARM.org

Sure, but you sure implied that I did not.
You probably didn't, but I of course don't know, nor will I say you didn't. The reality is I don't know, though I certainly can have an opinion.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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That's not my point. I'm only looking at verses like John 14:26, 15:26, and 16:13. But then we find verses elsewhere indicating that there's a need for "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers" etc. (e.g. Ephesians 4:11-12)

Why are any of these later guys and gals even indicated as being 'needed' in the Church IF the Holy Spirit Himself is just going to magically endow each and every Christian with a special understanding about ..... well, about SOMETHING?

So, if a teacher shows up and teaches me something [like the meaning of prayer in Matthew 18], it's my understanding THAT teacher/student interaction isn't magic. It's just a person showing up, even if in the name of Jesus, and teaching me something, something I might not have known on my own otherwise, and it isn't really that the Holy Spirit us just going to enlighten my mind as I sit all by myself with a bible while staring out the window.
Ok.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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I think the more fundamental question for you is whether or not God exists in the first place. I see no benefit in engaging in "in-house" theological discussions with someone who isn't in the house.
Someone who will not listen to all opposing views is not someone that can really know if their views are correct.

Well, there are certainly people who think that. I'm not sure if those people would refer to themselves as followers of Christ.
Yes they do. They are easy to find on the internet.

This notion of us not having the ability to choose our beliefs may have become popular as of late, but it's really not true.
Can you choose to believe the moon is made of cheese?

"If we are essentially forced to believe things and cannot choose to believe anything, then it is irrelevant whether that which we believe in is true or false. We believe because were forced to believe, not because we weigh the evidence, apply logic, and choose to believe something. Furthermore, it would mean that the position that "we don't have the ability to choose what we believe" can't be shown to be true - because we're forced to believe it regardless of its truth value. since we cannot show it to be true, we cannot rely on the statement "we don't have the ability to choose what we believe." Essentially, the position refutes itself. It refutes itself, then we ought not believe it. In fact, we should choose not to believe it's true. But if we choose to believe it's not true, then we are choosing to believe that we can choose to believe." Can you choose to believe something? | CARM.org

This is untrue. We are not forced to believe we are convinced by the evidence and arguments using logic for belief. If we are convinced by the evidence we have no choice to believe. It is the evidence and logic that convinces us. What does Matt Slick think forces us?

Can you choose to believe something you are convinced is untrue? How is that even possible? Can you choose to believe that Hillary Clinton is president? No, because the overwhelming evidence says she is not. You can act like it but you cannot be convinced of it unless you have a delusion or something.
 
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SPF

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Someone who will not listen to all opposing views is not someone that can really know if their views are correct.
I guess next time a Mormon knocks I’ll have to entertain them?

I don’t know if it’s true or not, but I remember hearing as a child that The people who studied to identify counterfeit money spent all their time analyzing only the real thing, and then they could spot a counterfeit more easily.

Yes they do. They are easy to find on the internet.
Oh, well I’ve never met or heard of someone who calls themself a follower of Christ and also believes that Jesus did not die as an atonement and also wasn’t resurrected. I certainly wouldn’t consider them Christians.

Can you choose to believe the moon is made of cheese?
Nope! And if you had taken the time to follow the link you would see that this fact doesn’t mean I have no choice in what I believe.

This is untrue. We are not forced to believe we are convinced by the evidence and arguments using logic for belief. If we are convinced by the evidence we have no choice to believe. It is the evidence and logic that convinces us. What does Matt Slick think forces us?

Can you choose to believe something you are convinced is untrue? How is that even possible? Can you choose to believe that Hillary Clinton is president? No, because the overwhelming evidence says she is not. You can act like it but you cannot be convinced of it unless you have a delusion or something.
Clearly you didn’t take the time to follow the link. I choose to believe a good many things. I choose to believe my wife is faithful even though I’m at work all day and she has time to be unfaithful (she would disagree of course as she is quite busy herself). I choose to believe that I am safe enough to drive my car to work every day.

I get that there is a sense of freedom that comes with liking the idea that you aren’t in control of anything you believe, but that’s just not the case. Keep in mind that I’m NOT saying you can choose everything you believe, such as your obvious cherry picking example of the moon being made of cheese.

I recommend following the link, it’s not a long essay, and could be helpful for you to read.

Out of curiosity, is there some underlying point to our conversation? Anything we are working towards? I just stumbled in on this thread when I saw the blatant fallacy, but I’m not sure what your purpose in this thread actually is.
 
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BigV

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I don't find it that difficult to discern.

John 14:12 was a promise made to whoever believes

John 14: 12 (NIV) Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

You should also consider that everything Jesus said was said to the disciples. And you seem to be missing the point of Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Obeying everything would surely include the promises to pray and have faith, guaranteeing that even a little faith will accomplish anything.
 
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BigV

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I choose to believe that I am safe enough to drive my car to work every day.

I would submit the reason you believe what you do about driving or your wife is due to your experience. If, for example, the road you were driving to work had a 50% chance of death every day, you wouldn't believe it was so safe to drive on.

Religious faith is different, because a Christian's experience of reality (assuming similar mental health) is the same as that of an Atheist.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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I guess next time a Mormon knocks I’ll have to entertain them?
No, but if you are unwilling to know what they believe and why they believe it that is an issue. If you are convinced that you are right and don't need to look at new evidence then you cannot be sure you are right? If anyone can show that god exists I would have no choice but to believe that.

I don’t know if it’s true or not, but I remember hearing as a child that The people who studied to identify counterfeit money spent all their time analyzing only the real thing, and then they could spot a counterfeit more easily.
This just shows how you will never accept further information. Christians are far from showing the existence of god. You cannot show you have the true religion.

Oh, well I’ve never met or heard of someone who calls themself a follower of Christ and also believes that Jesus did not die as an atonement and also wasn’t resurrected. I certainly wouldn’t consider them Christians.
Well don't commit the no true Scotsman fallacy.

Nope! And if you had taken the time to follow the link you would see that this fact doesn’t mean I have no choice in what I believe.
You seem to think that if someone disagrees with you that they just don't understand what you said or linked to. The world is not like that.

Clearly you didn’t take the time to follow the link.
Why do you think this is necessary? Have you ever heard of charitable listening?

I choose to believe a good many things. I choose to believe my wife is faithful even though I’m at work all day and she has time to be unfaithful (she would disagree of course as she is quite busy herself).
Do you choose to believe that or is there so much evidence of that, that you are convinced of it. Could you really choose to believe that she is unfaithful?

I choose to believe that I am safe enough to drive my car to work every day.
Or is there sufficient evidence to believe that based on your past driving record. Can you choose to believe that you are not safe to drive your car to work?

I get that there is a sense of freedom that comes with liking the idea that you aren’t in control of anything you believe, but that’s just not the case.
I never said we are not in control or that it is comforting. We are in control so much as we seek out the truth. If you just think you are right based on bad evidence and never consider further evidence that is what is comforting. Changing your beliefs is not comfortable. Going from a theist to atheist was not an easy process, I went kicking and screaming.

Keep in mind that I’m NOT saying you can choose everything you believe, such as your obvious cherry picking example of the moon being made of cheese.
Why is that cherry picking? How is this example different than any other example? Do you think I can choose to believe God exists?

I recommend following the link, it’s not a long essay, and could be helpful for you to read.
No, and here's why. You have a bad habit of posting something, not addressing specific objections to the post, posting more links or copy paste material and just basically saying if you understood this you would understand. You rarely address my specific objections on anything we have discussed just more links and copy and paste content.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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John 14:12 was a promise made to whoever believes

John 14: 12 (NIV) Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

You should also consider that everything Jesus said was said to the disciples. And you seem to be missing the point of Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Obeying everything would surely include the promises to pray and have faith, guaranteeing that even a little faith will accomplish anything.

BigV, now that we've established that you fixate upon just those verses about 'asking and getting,' and being that we can all understand that you've been disappointed in life (for quite some time now), what is it exactly that you didn't get in life that you thought God should have provided to you?
 
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BigV

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BigV, now that we've established that you fixate upon just those verses about 'asking and getting,' and being that we can all understand that you've been disappointed in life (for quite some time now), what is it exactly that you didn't get in life that you thought God should have provided to you?

I would expect the judge of all thoughts and actions to be a bit more responsible for their own words and promises. Or, at the very least, that I get the same defense as a Christian God is getting on these forums.

If I and every other Atheist/non-believer get the same defense that Jesus is getting, Hell will be empty.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I would expect the judge of all thoughts and actions to be a bit more responsible for their own words and promises. Or, at the very least, that I get the same defense as a Christian God is getting on these forums.

If I and every other Atheist/non-believer get the same defense that Jesus is getting, Hell will be empty.

Well, when you'd like to begin to be more forthcoming and make some sense, I'll be here to listen

... until then ... o_O
 
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SPF

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John 14:12 was a promise made to whoever believes

John 14: 12 (NIV) Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
It certainly was a promise, and it has come true. I think Albert Barnes made some good comments on this passage:

He that believeth on me - This promise had doubtless special reference to the apostles themselves. They were full of grief at his departure, and Jesus, in order to console them, directed them to the great honor which was to be conferred on them, and to the assurance that God would not leave them, but would attend them in their ministry with the demonstrations of his mighty power. It cannot be understood of all his followers, for the circumstances of the promise do not require us to understand it thus, and it has not been a matter of fact that All Christians have possessed power to do greater works than the Lord Jesus. It is a general promise that greater works than he performed should be done by his followers, without specifying that all his followers would be instrumental in doing them.

Greater works than these shall he do - Interpreters have been at a loss in what way to understand this. The most probable meaning of the passage is the following: The word “greater” cannot refer to the miracles themselves, for the works of the apostles did not exceed those of Jesus in power. No higher exertion of power was put forth, or could be, than raising the dead. But, though not greater in themselves considered, yet they were greater in their effects. They made a deeper impression on mankind. They were attended with more extensive results. They were the means of the conversion of more sinners. The works of Jesus were confined to Judea. They were seen by few. The works of the apostles were witnessed by many nations, and the effect of their miracles and preaching was that thousands from among the Jews and Gentiles were converted to the Christian faith. The word “greater” here is used, therefore, not to denote the absolute exertion of power, but the effect which the miracles would have on mankind. The word “works” here probably denotes not merely miracles, but all things that the apostles did that made an impression on mankind, including their travels, their labors, their doctrine, etc.
 
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BigV

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Interpreters have been at a loss in what way to understand this.

Care to guess why they are at a loss? Because what they experience and what they read are two different things.

The most probable meaning of the passage is the following: The word “greater” cannot refer to the miracles themselves, for the works of the apostles did not exceed those of Jesus in power.

See point above.

This is why Christians continue to believe the Bible is true. When they see a contradiction between the promise and reality, they start to make excuses and create new meaning so the original promise becomes twisted.

"Greater works" becomes "not greater works"!

No higher exertion of power was put forth, or could be, than raising the dead.

Who is coming up with this things? Raising the dead takes no power, but only words. How difficult is it to say things?

The word “works” here probably denotes not merely miracles, but all things that the apostles did that made an impression on mankind, including their travels, their labors, their doctrine, etc.

Your commentator misses the point. Miracle power was promised by Jesus to whoever believes, not just the Apostles. So, why won't the Christians on these forums stop COVID19 and empty the hospitals by their faith?
 
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