Ordination advice, please?

Robbio · Mar 31, 2020

Hello. I'd love your input. At first, I posted this as a reply within an existing thread I found where so many are already connected re the subject about which I would like counsel. However, it occurred to me that I should also post my own thread, to increase the odds of getting a reply and also in case the thread I was in might have been closed to new replies. I'd love it if you all could please weigh in as to whether my conclusion (below) is appropriate. I feel it is, but still would like to seek counsel in the brethren as part of due diligence. It's a long story, and there is so much more to it than just what I've written below, as I'm sure any of us can relate, but for the purposes of what I'm asking I'll condense it:

I was called by God 15 years ago. He gave me many visions during prayer, about which I spoke to many different clergy, who all agreed that the experience was and messages were authentic. Clergy of various denominations, and non-denominational ones, literally just began appearing into my social life and suddenly I was interacting with them pretty much daily. I went into spiritual direction to help process the whole thing for about 4 years. In the middle of that, I joined a Holy Order as a lay affiliate for about 7 years (was Episcopalean / Anglican at the time, but have since moved out of that and into the non-denominational church). I read and read about theology, theological history, the Bible, and prayed all the time. God told me distinctly that I was to be priest and perform all the things that the Apostles had done and speak words of knowledge to people that He would give me that no one could possibly know, in an effort to make Himself abundantly clear to them. Later, that word kept pressing and I told him I couldn't possibly afford all the money and further years of study in seminary that would be involved in waiting to be ordained and needed His help. He told me that I was to minister but not to go to seminary. Meanwhile, I'd moved across the country to follow the secular work aspect of my calling, as He wanted to use me in that as well, and found a small church group there. I spoke to the minister about this conundrum and he explained that I could enter into discipleship with him, through his church, for eventual ordination. I did that, and essentially functioned as both a pastoral assistant and associate pastor. However, that pastor fell into a form of apostasy. After trying various unsuccessful attempts to address that, I had to disinvolve myself there. God told me at various churches I visited that I should be preaching and, when in prayer, He said that I was already ordained of Him and needn't any more processing - that any papers to legitimize me legally with men and the world were just a technicality and to move forward. Literally right after that, when attending a different church in my search for a new one, an elder who prayed over me got and gave me the same word! The only way I could figure to move forward was through some sort of online ordination, but I was concerned that would appear less authentic or fake and ultimately not be recognized, and didn't know how to really verify some online organizations, and had other, similar concerns. Then, my mother developed problems causing me to move back east to help her, which was a full-time job, and is now a part-time one. I searched here for a church like the one lie the one I'd been part of on the west cast but the only suitable places I've found don't have the ordination process/ option. (This state is difficult, faithwise - a small number of Bible-based churches in a small state that is otherwise a small sea of fairly rampant secularism.)

So, the notion has again come into my mind that I should just stop waiting for approval and just do it. Thus, the online certificates method has come up for me again. Now, especially with all that is happening, I feel like I should get over those concerns, get some sort of online cert. through whatever site seems the most legit to me and/ or recommended by others and just do it and move on. Does this sound right to any of you? Please let me know ASAP as I feel like I need to move on this quickly after so long.

Thank you and God bless!

tall73 · Mar 31, 2020

Robbio said:
Hello. I'd love your input. At first, I posted this as a reply within an existing thread I found where so many are already connected re the subject about which I would like counsel. However, it occurred to me that I should also post my own thread, to increase the odds of getting a reply and also in case the thread I was in might have been closed to new replies. I'd love it if you all could please weigh in as to whether my conclusion (below) is appropriate. I feel it is, but still would like to seek counsel in the brethren as part of due diligence. It's a long story, and there is so much more to it than just what I've written below, as I'm sure any of us can relate, but for the purposes of what I'm asking I'll condense it:

I was called by God 15 years ago. He gave me many visions during prayer, about which I spoke to many different clergy, who all agreed that the experience was and messages were authentic. Clergy of various denominations, and non-denominational ones, literally just began appearing into my social life and suddenly I was interacting with them pretty much daily. I went into spiritual direction to help process the whole thing for about 4 years. In the middle of that, I joined a Holy Order as a lay affiliate for about 7 years (was Episcopalean / Anglican at the time, but have since moved out of that and into the non-denominational church). I read and read about theology, theological history, the Bible, and prayed all the time. God told me distinctly that I was to be priest and perform all the things that the Apostles had done and speak words of knowledge to people that He would give me that no one could possibly know, in an effort to make Himself abundantly clear to them. Later, that word kept pressing and I told him I couldn't possibly afford all the money and further years of study in seminary that would be involved in waiting to be ordained and needed His help. He told me that I was to minister but not to go to seminary. Meanwhile, I'd moved across the country to follow the secular work aspect of my calling, as He wanted to use me in that as well, and found a small church group there. I spoke to the minister about this conundrum and he explained that I could enter into discipleship with him, through his church, for eventual ordination. I did that, and essentially functioned as both a pastoral assistant and associate pastor. However, that pastor fell into a form of apostasy. After trying various unsuccessful attempts to address that, I had to disinvolve myself there. God told me at various churches I visited that I should be preaching and, when in prayer, He said that I was already ordained of Him and needn't any more processing - that any papers to legitimize me legally with men and the world were just a technicality and to move forward. Literally right after that, when attending a different church in my search for a new one, an elder who prayed over me got and gave me the same word! The only way I could figure to move forward was through some sort of online ordination, but I was concerned that would appear less authentic or fake and ultimately not be recognized, and didn't know how to really verify some online organizations, and had other, similar concerns. Then, my mother developed problems causing me to move back east to help her, which was a full-time job, and is now a part-time one. I searched here for a church like the one lie the one I'd been part of on the west cast but the only suitable places I've found don't have the ordination process/ option. (This state is difficult, faithwise - a small number of Bible-based churches in a small state that is otherwise a small sea of fairly rampant secularism.)

So, the notion has again come into my mind that I should just stop waiting for approval and just do it. Thus, the online certificates method has come up for me again. Now, especially with all that is happening, I feel like I should get over those concerns, get some sort of online cert. through whatever site seems the most legit to me and/ or recommended by others and just do it and move on. Does this sound right to any of you? Please let me know ASAP as I feel like I need to move on this quickly after so long.

Thank you and God bless!

If you feel conviction by God to mininster, why do you need the online certification either? And if you are also called to work a regular job, then do both.

Here are some options to preach and minister that wouldn't need any certification:

a. street preaching
b. offer to preach or hold a Bible study at nursing homes that have no religious services
c. start a small group in homes
d start an online ministry

Robbio · Mar 31, 2020

tall73 said:
If you feel conviction by God to mininster, why do you need the online certification either? And if you are also called to work a regular job, then do both.

Here are some options to preach and minister that wouldn't need any certification:

a. street preaching
b. offer to preach or hold a Bible study at nursing homes that have no religious services
c. start a small group in homes
d start an online ministry

Thank you. I guess the main reasons for certification would be so that I wouldn't get into any legal issues re donations if I happen to get an abundance of them, or even just if people want to deduct their donations from their taxes (or just do so out of the assumption that they can) and so I could legally do marriages and funerals, etc., when needed. But you have a good point, suggestions, and encouraging words. Thank you!

tall73 · Mar 31, 2020

Robbio said:
Thank you. I guess the main reasons for certification would be so that I wouldn't get into any legal issues re donations if I happen to get an abundance and people want to deduct them from their taxes (or just do so out of the assumption that they can) and so I could legally do marriages and funerals, etc., when needed. But you have a good point, suggestions, and encouraging words. Thank you!

Funerals are another option. You don't need ordination to conduct them.

There was a ministry I was aware of in a relatively small town that would conduct a radio program. They would preach and read the obituaries. They would visit those sick or in the hospital. They would do funerals for those who had no minister (and they could thereby minister to the families who might need to hear the gospel).

They started their own non-profit, and were the most listened to radio program in the region, admittedly, mainly for the obituaries. But people appreciated their ministry. They didn't seek to be a church, though they might encourage people to go to a church. They just ministered.

The whole body ministers as one person for the gospel per Philippians.

I was on the radio for a while preaching to fill in for a friend who started his own radio ministry as well. It was a secular station, but on Sunday they would allow a preaching program in the morning. Some may allow it for free. Some might want a small fee. But if it is with a fee then you could start a non-profit ministry and accept donations if you wish.

Amittai · Mar 31, 2020

Seek God more about a new batch of people He wants to attach you to.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 31, 2020

Robbio said:
Thank you. I guess the main reasons for certification would be so that I wouldn't get into any legal issues re donations if I happen to get an abundance of them, or even just if people want to deduct their donations from their taxes (or just do so out of the assumption that they can) and so I could legally do marriages and funerals, etc., when needed. But you have a good point, suggestions, and encouraging words. Thank you!

At one point, I was considering online ordination, as well. But the more I studied the Scriptures on my own time with God (Asking God for the understanding and comparing Scripture with Scripture), the more I realized that such a thing was not what God called for those truly faithful believers who are sold out to Jesus.

While it is certainly possible that God can use certain ministers in the traditional church model, I have come to realize that God works more unhindered in our lives if it is by faith in what His Word says alone (the Bible) and not in looking to what other men do by sight (like by ordination so as to be involved in a big building, marry and do funerals for believers who are affiliated with that church name (but may not be truly following Jesus as Scripture says).

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Faith is also not in your visions, either. We cannot add to God's Word (Revelation 22:18). I believe that is what a vision does. If we are receiving new words or pictorial revelations (a form of new communication) from the Lord in a vision, then we may feel compelled to tell others of this and or write a book about it. Should we add such words to the back of our Bibles if such writings of one's visions become a best seller? I sure hope that you would say... "no." God's Word is complete. There are no more words from God but the Bible until Christ comes back. His Word is enough.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 31, 2020

Robbio said:
Thank you. I guess the main reasons for certification would be so that I wouldn't get into any legal issues re donations if I happen to get an abundance of them, or even just if people want to deduct their donations from their taxes (or just do so out of the assumption that they can) and so I could legally do marriages and funerals, etc., when needed. But you have a good point, suggestions, and encouraging words. Thank you!

To challenge you, check out these two CF threads here by another poster:

The Pastor King (New)

Gods Order in the body of Christ

Bible Highlighter · Mar 31, 2020

Robbio said:
Hello. I'd love your input. At first, I posted this as a reply within an existing thread I found where so many are already connected re the subject about which I would like counsel. However, it occurred to me that I should also post my own thread, to increase the odds of getting a reply and also in case the thread I was in might have been closed to new replies. I'd love it if you all could please weigh in as to whether my conclusion (below) is appropriate. I feel it is, but still would like to seek counsel in the brethren as part of due diligence. It's a long story, and there is so much more to it than just what I've written below, as I'm sure any of us can relate, but for the purposes of what I'm asking I'll condense it:

I was called by God 15 years ago. He gave me many visions during prayer, about which I spoke to many different clergy, who all agreed that the experience was and messages were authentic. Clergy of various denominations, and non-denominational ones, literally just began appearing into my social life and suddenly I was interacting with them pretty much daily. I went into spiritual direction to help process the whole thing for about 4 years. In the middle of that, I joined a Holy Order as a lay affiliate for about 7 years (was Episcopalean / Anglican at the time, but have since moved out of that and into the non-denominational church). I read and read about theology, theological history, the Bible, and prayed all the time. God told me distinctly that I was to be priest and perform all the things that the Apostles had done and speak words of knowledge to people that He would give me that no one could possibly know, in an effort to make Himself abundantly clear to them. Later, that word kept pressing and I told him I couldn't possibly afford all the money and further years of study in seminary that would be involved in waiting to be ordained and needed His help. He told me that I was to minister but not to go to seminary. Meanwhile, I'd moved across the country to follow the secular work aspect of my calling, as He wanted to use me in that as well, and found a small church group there. I spoke to the minister about this conundrum and he explained that I could enter into discipleship with him, through his church, for eventual ordination. I did that, and essentially functioned as both a pastoral assistant and associate pastor. However, that pastor fell into a form of apostasy. After trying various unsuccessful attempts to address that, I had to disinvolve myself there. God told me at various churches I visited that I should be preaching and, when in prayer, He said that I was already ordained of Him and needn't any more processing - that any papers to legitimize me legally with men and the world were just a technicality and to move forward. Literally right after that, when attending a different church in my search for a new one, an elder who prayed over me got and gave me the same word! The only way I could figure to move forward was through some sort of online ordination, but I was concerned that would appear less authentic or fake and ultimately not be recognized, and didn't know how to really verify some online organizations, and had other, similar concerns. Then, my mother developed problems causing me to move back east to help her, which was a full-time job, and is now a part-time one. I searched here for a church like the one lie the one I'd been part of on the west cast but the only suitable places I've found don't have the ordination process/ option. (This state is difficult, faithwise - a small number of Bible-based churches in a small state that is otherwise a small sea of fairly rampant secularism.)

So, the notion has again come into my mind that I should just stop waiting for approval and just do it. Thus, the online certificates method has come up for me again. Now, especially with all that is happening, I feel like I should get over those concerns, get some sort of online cert. through whatever site seems the most legit to me and/ or recommended by others and just do it and move on. Does this sound right to any of you? Please let me know ASAP as I feel like I need to move on this quickly after so long.

Thank you and God bless!

While I will not say that all Charismatics, or Pentecostals are not operating by the power of God, I do lean heavily that the safer play is that the miraculous gifts (not the gifts in general) have ceased with the early church. Yes, God still does miracles, but they are on His choosing and not via by a specific person.

Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

Dave G. · Mar 31, 2020

Some of those online for free or ten bucks deals for ordination will take about anyone as long as they believe in Jesus. The certificate is real in some cases, that is to say you could file marriage licenses with state for instance. But in our system and seminary it's an associates degree in bible college classes to become ordained. Just sayin.

PloverWing · Mar 31, 2020

@Robbio , some thoughts:

1) You don't have to be ordained to the priesthood in order to have a genuine calling to serve God and to minister to people; we lay people are called to serve God and to minister to others as well. Perhaps your calling is as a lay Christian. As for the financial component, there are non-profit charitable organizations that are not churches, and that are run by lay people; perhaps you could found (or work with) one of those.

2) Yeah, online ordination is kinds sketchy. I don't view online-ordained people the same way I view clergy in genuine religions/churches/denominations.

3) Part of #2 is: I see ordination, in part, as a commissioning of a person by a religious community to act on behalf of that community. An Episcopal priest has been trained by the Episcopal church in their beliefs and customs, has been screened by representatives of the Episcopal church, and now acts as an agent of the Episcopal church. Similarly for Methodist ministers, Catholic priests, and so on. My question for you is: What community are you part of, and what community do you want to see yourself representing if you are ordained to the priesthood?

Robbio · Mar 31, 2020

PloverWing said:
@Robbio , some thoughts:

1) You don't have to be ordained to the priesthood in order to have a genuine calling to serve God and to minister to people; we lay people are called to serve God and to minister to others as well. Perhaps your calling is as a lay Christian. As for the financial component, there are non-profit charitable organizations that are not churches, and that are run by lay people; perhaps you could found (or work with) one of those.

2) Yeah, online ordination is kinds sketchy. I don't view online-ordained people the same way I view clergy in genuine religions/churches/denominations.

3) Part of #2 is: I see ordination, in part, as a commissioning of a person by a religious community to act on behalf of that community. An Episcopal priest has been trained by the Episcopal church in their beliefs and customs, has been screened by representatives of the Episcopal church, and now acts as an agent of the Episcopal church. Similarly for Methodist ministers, Catholic priests, and so on. My question for you is: What community are you part of, and what community do you want to see yourself representing if you are ordained to the priesthood?

Thanks for your very thoughtful reply.

Re 1) Yeah, the lay ministry thing is something I've considered. It just didn't seem that there were/ are too many opportunities to do so fully without some form of credentials, especially re donations, as it seemed fewer people would want to donate if they couldn't deduct it or if the person wasn't "official." (I.e., one might appear a charlatan, given the general popular understanding of "ministers." So, although God had said that He'd already ordained me and didn't want me to go to seminary as such, He acknowledged getting some sort of certification for this reason. It was just hard to find such that seemed proper. Also, He had told me that He intended for me to make a majority of my income from this pursuit, so I didn't know how to go about that without some sort of certification. I didn't want to be foolhardy financially as the goal would be to go all in, etc., but one has to eat and pay rent, especially if one has responsibilities to family, etc. Nor did I want to inadvertently run into tax trouble. Maybe I should revisit lay ministry, though..? I hadn't thought of or realized that there could be a non-ordained non-profit ministry type outreach. I guess I could look into that but it seems sort of sketchy, vis-a-vis the above. Maybe my thinking is incorrect there, though. Maybe you or others have more ideas or info of that tye to share re that?

2) Yeah, I guess we both - and probably many others - are on the same page re online ordinations...

3) Yeah, there is that, too. I feel part of and would want to be considered part of the non-denominational church.

Robbio · Mar 31, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
While I will not say that all Charismatics, or Pentecostals are not operating by the power of God, I do lean heavily that the safer play is that the miraculous gifts (not the gifts in general) have ceased with the early church. Yes, God still does miracles, but they are on His choosing and not via by a specific person.

Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

Yeah, I have to say that thus far I disagree with cessationism. I understand that people interpret things that way. While I agree that the miracles, signs, and wonders type of thing was for the early church, and were primarily to reach the Jewish people, I feel that the idea that many prophetic gifts and dreams are foretold for this time as well and we're also encouraged to desire them. Having said that, though, I do have to say that many things I've experienced in the so-called spirit-filled churches has seemed to be bordering on, if not fully fallen into, apostasy: barking like dogs, rolling (writhing) around on the floor, behaving hysterically, getting "high" or "drunk in the spirit," focusing on too many details of the things afoot in the spirit world, focusing on miracles, doing healing missions in a big lather of spectacle, going on whatever they feel the Lord is doing without checking themselves against Scripture and the counsel of brethren, going on missions and doing any sort of activities without consulting the Bible daily, if not moment to moment. Another thing I have wrestled with a lot is how often and when to speaking in tongues. I would never want to in any way quell a gift of the Holy Spirit, but I feel that there are so many Scriptural references that seem to support both doing so a lot and doing so only in very specific times and ways - and there seems to be a great deal of argument among many Christian scholars and ministers about this as well. I tend to err on the side of only doing so when there is someone to interpret, but that is a hard one. It seems that there is at the very least a line between proper glossolalia and in corrupting a Holy gift for what would amount to little more than engaging in a form of vain babbling. Of course, the cessationists would argue that the time for tongues is past... That is a hard one, but ultimately it would seem that one needn't ever necessarily engage in tongues in order to preach the gospel and follow Jesus. I've come to understand that none of us will ever - in this lifetime anyway - know everything well enough and we are all in a continual process. So, I'm not judging even those who may be in error on any point, as I have been in error myself, and from the vantage point of today, I might view the me of yesterday/ yesteryear a fool by comparison, and may feel similarly about the me of today in the future. And of course even the best of us are all far below and behind God and His understanding. So, I just do my best to discern and speak what I have come to understand, and refrain from what I know to be wrong and advise accordingly as needed, but all in openness and humility as best I can.

As for what I'd be doing, I would not be focusing on miracles, etc., except of course if God might in some rare instance want to do one through me or otherwise - but, as you say, He could do so with anyone. As far as gifts go, I'd be focused on healing, providing words of knowledge and prophetic words when given them, and deliverance, but the main point of the ministry would mostly be speaking to people about the truth of Jesus, especially those on the fence about God or who are very far away from Him, to try to make sure they are reached out to. I was very far away from Him and spoke against Him with alacrity, but He yet saved me. I could speak to such folks from a place of understanding, and that understanding could enhance my ability to use the words the Holy Spirit might give me in the moment. (I.e., any willing servant could receive and give the words he Holy Spirit provides, but if they involve a dialect or context, etc., that the person has no familiarity with, he or she will not be as well able to speak them clearly and convincingly.) It's really about sharing His Good news with love and care and empathy.

Robbio · Mar 31, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
To challenge you, check out these two CF threads here by another poster:

The Pastor King (New)

Gods Order in the body of Christ

Ok, will do. Thank you!

Robbio · Mar 31, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
At one point, I was considering online ordination, as well. But the more I studied the Scriptures on my own time with God (Asking God for the understanding and comparing Scripture with Scripture), the more I realized that such a thing was not what God called for those truly faithful believers who are sold out to Jesus.

While it is certainly possible that God can use certain ministers in the traditional church model, I have come to realize that God works more unhindered in our lives if it is by faith in what His Word says alone (the Bible) and not in looking to what other men do by sight (like by ordination so as to be involved in a big building, marry and do funerals for believers who are affiliated with that church name (but may not be truly following Jesus as Scripture says).

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Faith is also not in your visions, either. We cannot add to God's Word (Revelation 22:18). I believe that is what a vision does. If we are receiving new words or pictorial revelations (a form of new communication) from the Lord in a vision, then we may feel compelled to tell others of this and or write a book about it. Should we add such words to the back of our Bibles if such writings of one's visions become a best seller? I sure hope that you would say... "no." God's Word is complete. There are no more words from God but the Bible until Christ comes back. His Word is enough.

Thanks. Yeah, I hear you and have come to a similar place in my process as regards concerning oneself with what other men do by sight, etc. Not totally but to a large degree, vis-a-vis a lot of so-called ordained ministry and ministers. It would seem that much of that is so far (too far) removed from the methods and practices of the early church...

Yeah, I also agree re not adding to Scripture. Neither add anything nor take anything away. I generally regard visions, etc., as a way God sometimes prompts one to go to Scripture and hear anew the words he or she has heard but not fully heard, or a means of helping one communicate to people about Jesus, the Word. I.e., Paul didn't just quote the Bible, he used many of his own words/ verbiage to explain to people about Jesus and how He saved/ saves, and Jesus' Scriptural truth, using many words of the language people spoke, language, what he'd experienced, etc. Similarly, we can't just stand on a street quoting Scripture without also speaking accompanying sentences, etc., employing dialectic, etc. So, similarly, I think that as long as visions, etc., do no more than serve such a purpose, they aren't adding. I could be wrong, but this is how I've come to understand things thus far. In any case, yes, I absolutely agree that no words employed to speak the gospel to people should be presented as anything like Scripture or as more important than God's Word, nor to be treated in such a way as to try to add to Scripture. Anythign that doesn't drive people TO the Bible is useless and can't serve Jesus.

Robbio · Mar 31, 2020

Dave G. said:
Some of those online for free or ten bucks deals for ordination will take about anyone as long as they believe in Jesus. The certificate is real in some cases, that is to say you could file marriage licenses with state for instance. But in our system and seminary it's an associates degree in bible college classes to become ordained. Just sayin.

Amittai said:
Seek God more about a new batch of people He wants to attach you to.

Right. Have done that but this other aspect persists and, after so many years, I know that I have to follow that call.

Amittai · Apr 1, 2020

Robbio said:
Right. Have done that but this other aspect persists and, after so many years, I know that I have to follow that call.

A new congregation/co-pastor might be an aspect of the SAME thing. Actual survival/providence might not, at any specific time or place, be a function of a piece of paper that "has you made", not yet awahile.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 1, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
To challenge you, check out these two CF threads here by another poster:

The Pastor King (New)

Gods Order in the body of Christ

Robbio said:
Ok, will do. Thank you!

These two threads on the order of church fellowship come from a brother of mine (via these forums) who believes in Continuationism. He disagrees with me on Cessationism. I also have a brother at work who is a Pentecostal. I label the continued operation of the miraculous gifts as an unknown by 5% and believe it is the safer play to not partake of the miraculous gifts just in case Cessationism is true. I am a 95% Cessationist and leave 5% that I could be wrong. I believe it is safer to focus just on loving God and loving others and sticking to His Word alone.

Anyways, these two threads by my fellow brother on the order of the church are a great source of information on how the church is to gather according to Scripture.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 1, 2020

@Robbio

While I do not watch Christian movies anymore, I did see this movie last year in the spring at a limited theater release in Stony brook, New York.

After Time Changer, it was probably the best Christian movie I had ever seen. But the point of the film kind of relates to my point with you. In the movie, a Youth Pastor runs into a class who are all indifferent to the things of God. He helps to turn things around for them by preaching them the Word. But I believe that this is not the case in real life. Most are not going to respond in such a positive way towards God's Word. The Pastor in the movie has a calling to preach the Word to these children.

While again, I believe God can bring about revival in certain rare instances, I also believe we are living in the last days. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 describes that in the last days perilous times will come, and men shall be lovers of their own selves, and they will be lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. They will have a form of godliness, but they will deny the power thereof.

Like Hollywood, it paints a picture of fantasy of how we wish things to be, but it is not always the reality of the world we live in.

I believe "the power they deny" mentioned in 2 Timothy 3:1-9 is to overcome grievous sin. Most in the church today believe that you can justify sin on some level and still be saved by having a belief alone in Jesus.

So should we not preach? Surely not. But I believe our preaching of Jesus Christ, and salvation in Him should be done in unconventional ways. There are many ways we can minister for the Lord. We can do YouTube videos sermons, hand out gospel tracts (Note: I use Chick tracts, and I am working on creating my own comic tracts). We can tell others about Jesus at our work place. We can fellowship by gathering with other believers in each other's home.

The whole church model in my view does not work. Christians invite unbelievers to go to a big public building (that costs lots of money to run) with them to accept Jesus via by doing an altar call. But before they accept Jesus, they have to pretend they are Christian and sing along and praise God when they are not a believer yet. But what fellowship does light have with darkness? In the early church, only believers gathered in each others homes. Followers of Christ went door to door in pairs of two.

Amittai · Apr 1, 2020

A few years ago I got an inkling two young men were not desired by God to train as formal clergy (in their denomination, licensing is normally routinely arranged after that). I didn't tell them. One got providentially diverted back to his main career. The other I'm still watching. Only God sees who are the best companions for you at any twist in the spaghetti of time

Bible Highlighter · Apr 1, 2020

Robbio said:
Thanks. Yeah, I hear you and have come to a similar place in my process as regards concerning oneself with what other men do by sight, etc. Not totally but to a large degree, vis-a-vis a lot of so-called ordained ministry and ministers. It would seem that much of that is so far (too far) removed from the methods and practices of the early church...

Yeah, I also agree re not adding to Scripture. Neither add anything nor take anything away. I generally regard visions, etc., as a way God sometimes prompts one to go to Scripture and hear anew the words he or she has heard but not fully heard, or a means of helping one communicate to people about Jesus, the Word. I.e., Paul didn't just quote the Bible, he used many of his own words/ verbiage to explain to people about Jesus and how He saved/ saves, and Jesus' Scriptural truth, using many words of the language people spoke, language, what he'd experienced, etc. Similarly, we can't just stand on a street quoting Scripture without also speaking accompanying sentences, etc., employing dialectic, etc. So, similarly, I think that as long as visions, etc., do no more than serve such a purpose, they aren't adding. I could be wrong, but this is how I've come to understand things thus far. In any case, yes, I absolutely agree that no words employed to speak the gospel to people should be presented as anything like Scripture or as more important than God's Word, nor to be treated in such a way as to try to add to Scripture. Anythign that doesn't drive people TO the Bible is useless and can't serve Jesus.

Two things I know for sure have ceased.

#1. Gift of apostleship has ceased
(Note: Even some Continuationists believe there are no more apostles).
#2. Gift of Prophecies or Visions has ceased.
(These are Visions that offer new words of God that attempt to add to the Bible; Which can even be done in a subtle way.).

The gift of apostleship has ceased. Nobody today can be an apostle. The requirements of being an apostle is to have seen the risen Lord. Paul says, "Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?" (1 Corinthians 9:1). Paul implies he was the last of the apostles (1 Corinthians 15:7-9). Paul says to the Ephesian believers that they are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets in Ephesians 2:19-20. This means that the Ephesians cannot be apostles because they are built on top of the apostles being their foundation. 1 Corinthians 4:9 says that God has set forth the apostles last so as to be appointed unto death.

The gift of new prophecy or new visions has ceased. God giving us new words or new pictorial dreams so as to communicate new information to us is an addition to what the Bible says. I believe God can magnify His Word by life situations or by hearing the Word through different ways (like hearing a sermon, reading a Christian writing, etc.), but I do not believe He will communicate new things to us (as if by special means). I believe the danger of opening ourselves to visions, dreams, or prophecy can lead us down the road to trusting these things instead of the Word of God alone. Our faith should be in the Bible alone and not in some vision, dream, or prophecy. I believe that these things were clearly for the establishment that Jesus and His followers spoke the truth of God's Word. The miracles were a confirmation that what they said was true.

"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen" (Mark 16:20).

Today, the Bible has many evidences supporting it that it is divine in origin. There is no longer any need for miracle to be done so as to confirm that the words of the Bible are true.

I am reminded of the story in 1 Kings 13:11-34. A man of God who was condemned (killed) by God because he did not stick with what God's Word said. He listened to another man in violating God's Word in eating in Bethel (When he was commanded by the Lord to not eat in Bethel). His error was believing in a word outside of what God said.

Ordination advice, please?

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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