Tax church property? Gay marriage court to decide.

WolfGate

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Many churches and "church-like" organizations apply for the exemption primarily to protect their contributors just in case their activities cause them to be ruled "non-church" at some point by the IRS. If the IRS should rule against them based on their non-church activities, the IRS could also charge taxes due on their contributors.

When we went through this with our church, the biggest benefit we as a board saw was actually for our members. While it is extremely unlikely our church will do anything to lose tax exempt status, it is probable some of our members will be IRS audited at some point in time. By applying for recognition of 501(c)3 status, you end up on the IRS public listing of tax exempt organizations. That removes one headache from a member's audit if the IRS decides to look at charitable donations during their audit. In the end the member would be fine either way and donations to the church would be ruled tax deductible, but it could save them some steps proving that our church actually exists and wasn't made up to create a deduction. (Yes, people really do that!).
 
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ViaCrucis

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They are automatically tax exempt if they meet the criteria. And as for the second, it can be seen as the state taxing an entity just like any other, with one happening to be a church. IF churches are being treated different, that is de facto endorsement.

Except that it applies to all "churches" with "church" being any religious group, community, etc. I don't want the government taxing synagogues or mosques anymore than I want the government taxing churches. Tax exemption isn't endorsement, it's simply part of the hands off neutrality that the government takes in regard to religion.

I see tax exemption as a big part of the separation between church and state. Once you entangle the two, it's way too easy for things to get messy and ugly.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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MoonofIsaiah

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Isn't it interesting that this effort is starting in Massachusetts. Imagine the implications if a state can tax church property and violate the separation clause in the USC.

I pray this fails and the court rules to protect churches. But with this court I don't think prayer even comes close to them.
We'll see.

There's a discussion here about automatic tax exemption for churches. I think what some keep missing in what is posted IRS materials is the part in the IRS literature that states, churches that meet the requirements of IRC Section 501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS.

That isn't saying, say you're a church and you can be tax free. Which is what some appear to insist is true in that IRS material.
 
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WolfGate

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There's a discussion here about automatic tax exemption for churches. I think what some keep missing in what is posted IRS materials is the part in the IRS literature that states, churches that meet the requirements of IRC Section 501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS.

That isn't saying, say you're a church and you can be tax free. Which is what some appear to insist is true in that IRS material.

I do not think anybody has said that the way your indicating, particularly after going back and re-reading. The same document you quoted is what has already been quoted several times. That same document indicates immediately before the section you referenced what is required to meet the requirements of IRC Section 501(c)3:

Churches and religious organizations, like many other charitable organizations, qualify for exemption from federal income tax under IRC Section 501(c)(3) and are generally eligible to receive tax-deductible contributions. To qualify for tax-exempt status, the organization must meet the following requirements (covered in greater detail throughout this publication):
The organization must be organized and operated exclusively for religious, educational, scientific or other charitable purposes;
Net earnings may not inure to the benefit of any private individual or shareholder;
No substantial part of its activity may be attempting to influence legislation;
The organization may not intervene in political campaigns; and
The organization’s purposes and activities may not be illegal or violate fundamental public policy

If your church meets those criteria, you are then tax exempt. That is different from most other types of organizations that can also meet 501(c)3 criteria, which are required to apply for tax exempt status.

That does result a practical difference, which is by rule once a church believes they meet the qualifications above, they are tax exempt and donations are tax deductible unless the IRS comes in, examines them and rules otherwise. So I guess you could "say" you're tax exempt and start acting that way, but expect to lose that exemption if you don't meet the criteria of a 501(c)3. Other organizations only become tax exempt with donations tax deductible after they apply and the IRS recognizes that they qualify. However, that is not the same as "say you're a church and you can be tax free".
 
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Rhamiel

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just as a little thought experiment

Churches will have to start paying property tax

but every Christian school, hospital, orphanage, soup kitchen, food pantry, daycare, and any other social program was shut down
the USA would be falling apart after a week or two of that

I am not saying that should be the result
nor am I saying Churches should do that

I am just pointing out that the USA gets a LOT more from Churches then what it looses on tax revenue
I just mentioned the big programs
there are also countless families who get counseling from Pastors, or the congregation pools money together to help a needy family cover rent
 
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Hank77

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Why shouldn't churches pay property taxes? They are using county/city resources (water, sewer, etc.) and those taxes help pay for the upkeep and development of that infrastructure/resources. You want to use it? Pay for it. I DO think it would run certain small churches out of business, but hey...stuff happens. It will definitely separate the sheep from the goats though...those "preachers" who are out shilling for money...as soon as they have to pay taxes on the property (Joel Osteen) they may finally just do us all a favor and shut up and stop teaching their false gospel.
http://www.post-gazette.com/opinion...ut-for-many-good-reasons/stories/201303060152
:)

Churches are not the only non-profits who are tax exempt for property tax purposes.
 
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Hank77

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CyberPaladin - a church never has to fill it out any form to be federal tax exempt. You simply have to meet the IRS definition of a church and you are tax exempt regardless of if you file a 501(c)3 application. It is crystal clear in the document I linked. You may choose to fill it out to get a piece of paper from the IRS with acknowledgement that they agree the church meets the requirements. Most churches do this. Many do not. In both cases churches are legally treated the same including that donations to the church are also tax deductible.
It would be pretty silly for a church not to get qualified as tax exempt and get a tax exempt ID#.

A few years ago we needed to paint the exterior of our small church building. We called around to the big box stores, knowing that all of these large companies set aside monies and sales that they contribute each year.
Home Depot donated all of the primer and Lowe's donated all of the paint, but in order for them to be able to do that they needed our ID# issued by the government.
 
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WolfGate

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WolfGate

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It would be pretty silly for a church not to get qualified as tax exempt and get a tax exempt ID#.

A few years ago we needed to paint the exterior of our small church building. We called around to the big box stores, knowing that all of these large companies set aside monies and sales that they contribute each year.
Home Depot donated all of the primer and Lowe's donated all of the paint, but in order for them to be able to do that they needed our ID# issued by the government.

Hank - those are two separate things. The IRS does not issue a tax exempt ID#. From the IRS Tax Guide for Churches linked earlier in this thread.

The IRS does not assign a special number or other identification as evidence of an organization’s tax-exempt status.

An IRS EIN (Employer Identification Number), what I am almost positive Home Depot asked for, is an entirely different thing and is something the IRS requires all legally formed organizations to have. While an EIN is certainly not a guarantee for Home Depot that their donations went to a tax exempt organization, if your church has also applied for and received recognition from the IRS of tax exempt status (even though it is not required) it would make it easy for Home Depot to confirm via the IRS public database that your church was tax exempt. In reality most corporate donors are satisfied just having the EIN and would not care about the official IRS recognition since so few churches lose tax exempt status.
 
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Rhamiel

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Some people have been discussing the IRS and Federal tax law. However, this is not a Federal case. The state court is deciding whether churches should have to pay property taxes, a state matter. This would have no effect on the churches status under Federal law.

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/lo...igious_tax_exemptions_on_the_line_in_sjc_case

yes, the state government is free to tax Churches

and Churches are free to demolish every single school, hospital, retirement home, soup kitchen, orphanage, women's shelter, and food pantry that they own

lets hope that both parties decide not take these destructive actions
 
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Archivist

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yes, the state government is free to tax Churches and Churches are free to demolish every single school, hospital, retirement home, soup kitchen, orphanage, women's shelter, and food pantry that they own

I would hope that the state court rules that the churches cannot be taxed. At the same time I would hope that even if the tax is approved the churches will do everything in their power to continue offering these various services to the public.
 
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Hank77

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Hank - those are two separate things. The IRS does not issue a tax exempt ID#. From the IRS Tax Guide for Churches linked earlier in this thread.

An IRS EIN (Employer Identification Number), what I am almost positive Home Depot asked for, is an entirely different thing and is something the IRS requires all legally formed organizations to have. While an EIN is certainly not a guarantee for Home Depot that their donations went to a tax exempt organization, if your church has also applied for and received recognition from the IRS of tax exempt status (even though it is not required) it would make it easy for Home Depot to confirm via the IRS public database that your church was tax exempt. In reality most corporate donors are satisfied just having the EIN and would not care about the official IRS recognition since so few churches lose tax exempt status.
I checked it out and yes that is what they wanted, the EIN. The pastor also faxed Lowe's a copy of the determination letter they had received from the IRS. Lowe's had asked for the EIN and other info. on church letterhead, which we didn't have, so the pastor sent the letter.
 
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WolfGate

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I checked it out and yes that is what they wanted, the EIN. The pastor also faxed Lowe's a copy of the determination letter they had received from the IRS. Lowe's had asked for the EIN and other info. on church letterhead, which we didn't have, so the pastor sent the letter.

It's complicated and confusing at times, no doubt. I spent a year dealing with this kind of stuff with our church, and at times I still have to go back and think about the nuances of how the IRS deals with the church because it is often counter-intuitive!
 
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Cuddles333

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The 'church' was designed to be a grass-roots simple organization. Very mobile. There is a reason it was designed like it was in the New Testament. It is a terrible mistake for any church to become so comfortable in the world that it builds things that more resemble pagan worship temples that require any kind of paperwork from the Government.
 
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Four Angels Standing

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You're right of course. Like a lot of threads this one morphed into a different discussion.
He's not right. Separation of church and state is a federal guarantee that extends to the state governments. Federal law supersedes state's law. And state constitutions cannot repeal any part of the federal constitution so as to commit church and state together.
Taxing a church property is a violation of the separation clause. The first step to fascism and tyranny.
If a state is as desperate for tax funds as is Taxachusetts then they should stop giving breaks to corporations, known as corporate welfare, as should the fed.
 
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SwordmanJr

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Why shouldn't churches pay property taxes? They are using county/city resources (water, sewer, etc.) and those taxes help pay for the upkeep and development of that infrastructure/resources. You want to use it? Pay for it.

That is not only an uninformed system of thought given that church orgainzations pay for water, sewer and electric like any other public place. How you got the idea they don't is staggeringly uninformed.

Additionally, in the hard times that are headed toward this country sometime in the future, church organizations are the one place people suffering from the hard times can go and find comfort in the storms of life. That is a service to the community that no price tag will ever suffice to quantify.

Your concept of ethics, which appears to lean toward punishing ALL those organizations for the sins of some or many; that clearly is not a godly take on life. It's more akin to the enemy of our souls. It smacks of an idea of justice that says that since we ALL have sinned, we ALL should therefore be cast into the pits of Hell no matter what.

I would encourage you to adopt a more grace-centered approach that looks more knowingly into the long-term effects of such thinking. Live and let live. Those preachers who are money-centric in their thinking, they will close the doors anyway rather than to sit there on guard and fight to defend the sheep when the wolves come.

The question that remains is.....are YOU and/or others here a part of that wolf pack....?

Jr
 
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RedPonyDriver

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Additionally, in the hard times that are headed toward this country sometime in the future, church organizations are the one place people suffering from the hard times can go and find comfort in the storms of life. That is a service to the community that no price tag will ever suffice to quantify.

We've got hard times now and I have yet to see the churches stepping up. People here are sleeping in parking lots while churches and hotels are empty. The secular non-profits are stepping up...are the churches stepping up to help with bills, food, etc right now. Where I live has been hit HARD by this pandemic thing...I have yet to see a church do anything other than close their doors and do nothing more than "pray"...prayer won't fill hungry stomachs, prayer won't put a roof over people's heads, put clothing on them. There's a large secular non-profit here locally that is stepping up in a huge way. Churches? Nope...yet they can take tracts of prime real-estate and not contribute to things like roads, police and fire protection, schools or other things that are traditionally handled by cities and counties.

So...pay Caesar what is due him.
 
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