Obeying Unconstitutional edicts

expos4ever · Mar 31, 2020

stvns78 said:
So it seems like you (sfs and expos4ever) are suggesting I have a duty to obey the governing authority regardless of situation and whether or not their edicts may be constitutional? Is that right? If so i respect your opinions and will reflect on that.

I certainly never wrote anything to the effect that you should obey the government regardless of the situation! In this particular situation, I believe the government should enforce restrictions on public assembly if the evidence shows that people are not voluntarily respecting social distancing.

stvns78 said:
I worry about the precedent that will set and the future usurpation it will bring.

I think it is extremely unrealistic to think that the American government - with decades, if not centuries, of respect for personal liberty, is suddenly going to usurp freedoms - that smells of conspiracy-theory thinking to me. I live in a place (Quebec, Canada) where, in the early 1970's the government imposed a kind of martial law for a few weeks (due to terrorism). Many rights were suspended. But, we certainly got them all back after the crisis was over.

Yarddog · Mar 31, 2020

stvns78 said:
Let me say first that I think people should stay home as much as possible to prevent the spread of this virus. I am very saddened by the illness and death this virus is causing.

I am two thing above all:
1. A Christian
2. A freedom loving, flag waving, red blooded American

I am also VERY concerned about what our local, state, and federal governments are doing. I have seen and read about many examples of governments overstepping their Constitutional boundaries. I have read about mayors threatening to fine and imprison people who violate their stay-in-place orders. Denying citizens their right to peacefully assemble, religious freedoms, freedom of movement. Forced quarantines are both unconstitutional and unenforceable.

I feel that any violation to our liberties must be immediately met with push back regardless of the situation.

I do not trust any of our leaders. Every citizen should have a healthy distrust of those who have been given positions of power. I would argue we are already living under more tyranny than those who rebelled against England those centuries ago.

If we are willing to give up our liberties even temporarily then we should expect them to be given up for lesser reasons in the future. It is a Slippery Slope.

Plagues and pandemics were a thing when our founders created this country, yet i see no language that suggests its ok for the government to suspend our rights during such pandemics.

This comes to the part I am wrestling with. I want to save as many people as possible from dying from this disease yet I fear the cure of suspending liberties will kill more in the long term. 20th century alone should makes us very worried about how many people governments can kill. The bible tells me to submit to the governing authorities but what does that really mean? The founders of our governing authority told us we have a duty to resist tyranny. So if i defy an edict from the current governing authority that our founders tells us to defy am I disobeying God? Were our founders disobeying God when they rebelled against England? If evil men and women pervert the authority that which God placed over us, do I still have a duty to obey? Or did God allow the perversion and we are still subject to his judgement if we disobey? See the problem?

My goal is to be in compliance with Gods will but also defy that which should be defied. Obviously the first is more important than the later.

We need to walk a fine line between saving as many people as we can and preserving ALL of our liberties. Again let me say we should all stay at home as much as possible. However if necessity dictates I do something that will violate an unconstitutional edict than violated it shall be. The only reason I would not violate it out of shear principal is that I could be a vector to do harm to others.

There's nothing unconstitutional about this. The Constitution grants the government to suspend certain rights and also grants Congress the right to enact laws, which may negate rights during emergency circumstances.

sfs · Mar 31, 2020

stvns78 said:
As I said in my OP, pandemics were a thing in the 1700's, but the first amendment doesnt say "Congress shall make no law..... except in times of pandemics."

They didn't need to. Quarantines (variously local, state, and Federal) have been considered constitutionally allowed throughout the history of the US. This idea that we're suddenly losing some constitutionally guaranteed right today ignores the actual legal history.

stvns78 · Mar 31, 2020

expos4ever said:
I think it is extremely unrealistic to think that the American government - with decades, if not centuries, of respect for personal liberty, is suddenly going to usurp freedoms - that smells of conspiracy-theory thinking to me. I live in a place (Quebec, Canada) where, in the early 1970's the government imposed a kind of martial law for a few weeks (due to terrorism). Many rights were suspended. But, we certainly got them all back after the crisis was over.

They have been doing it for a long time. Federal Reserve act of 1913, 2nd amendment violations, NFA, Patriot Act, Obamacare, People are getting thrown off public spaces for speaking. I can continue. Its not conspiracy theory to be vigilant.

If your rights can be suspended they are not rights they are privileges and you are not a citizen but a subject.

stvns78 · Mar 31, 2020

sfs said:
They didn't need to. Quarantines (variously local, state, and Federal) have been considered constitutionally allowed throughout the history of the US. This idea that we're suddenly losing some constitutionally guaranteed right today ignores the actual legal history.

Such is the problem with precedent. Just because some judge say something is constitutional and then sets a precedent doesn't not necessarily make it constitutional.

Josheb · Mar 31, 2020

stvns78 said:
….I am also VERY concerned about what our local, state, and federal governments are doing. I have seen and read about many examples of governments overstepping their Constitutional boundaries. I have read about mayors threatening to fine and imprison people who violate their stay-in-place orders. Denying citizens their right to peacefully assemble, religious freedoms, freedom of movement. Forced quarantines are both unconstitutional and unenforceable...…….

It is my observation that situations like epidemics or occasions when the government intervenes in the otherwise normal, routine, and common practices of the citizenry what we read/hear about most is those thinking/acting in the poles. We hear first from the critics that think more government should happen and then we hear from those who decry government involvement, especially in any way perceived to infringe upon "rights."

First, let me say one Christian to another: you and I don't have any rights. The only rights we have are those commuted to us by Christ. Because we are all sinners what we deserve is immediate destruction. It is solely by the grace of God that any of us lives one second longer than now, or draws sufficient breath to type in an internet forum. That then is the context for which Christians living in a pluralistic representative republic (not a democracy) should understand Constitutional rights granted first by God and not the state.

Which brings me to my next point: those living in the poles invariably don't know the Constitution, the law, or their rights and responsibilities and the limits thereof.

For example, the Constitution asserts, empowers, and guarantees the right of assembly, but that right is not unfettered. All constitutionally protected assemblies must be peaceful and lawful.

Third, businesses have the power, authority, and liberty to conduct business as they so choose so even if a POTUS or governor restricts citizens' behavior any business can decide to limit access or sales as long as it does so within the already existing rule of law. I don't have to open my doors to the public if I choose not to do so. You don't have a right to my business. And if I choose to close my doors for the sake of the community's health you have little recourse beyond taking your business elsewhere.

Lastly, we do not have a Constitutionally guaranteed or protected right to make others sick. Liberties come with responsibilities. If every individual thought more about responsible conduct there would be little concern about government control or lack thereof.

"Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law." (Rom. 13:8)
"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love." (1 Jn. 4:18)

One last parting thought: I've read a few Christians here in CF asserting COVID-19 is judgment from God. I wonder how many Christians, the judgment-oriented ones in particular, consider government responses to be in keeping with Romans 13:1ff.[/INDENT]

sfs · Mar 31, 2020

stvns78 said:
Such is the problem with precedent. Just because some judge say something is constitutional and then sets a precedent doesn't not necessarily make it constitutional.

Yes, in the American system of government, that is exactly what makes something constitutional. It seems like a more sensible system than relying on what some guy on the internet thinks is constitutional.

By the way, isn't this a Christian forum? Why are we talking about defending our rights even if it harms others rather than talking about what sacrifices we could be making to protect others?

stvns78 · Mar 31, 2020

Josheb said:
It is my observation that situations like epidemics or occasions when the government intervenes in the otherwise normal, routine, and common practices of the citizenry what we read/hear about most is those thinking/acting in the poles. We hear first from the critics that think more government should happen and then we hear from those who decry government involvement, especially in any way perceived to infringe upon "rights."

First, let me say one Christian to another: you and I don't have any rights. The only rights we have are those commuted to us by Christ. Because we are all sinners what we deserve is immediate destruction. It is solely by the grace of God that any of us lives one second longer than now, or draws sufficient breath to type in an internet forum. That then is the context for which Christians living in a pluralistic representative republic (not a democracy) should understand Constitutional rights granted first by God and not the state.

Which brings me to my next point: those living in the poles invariably don't know the Constitution, the law, or their rights and responsibilities and the limits thereof.

For example, the Constitution asserts, empowers, and guarantees the right of assembly, but that right is not unfettered. All constitutionally protected assemblies must be peaceful and lawful.

Third, businesses have the power, authority, and liberty to conduct business as they so choose so even if a POTUS or governor restricts citizens' behavior any business can decide to limit access or sales as long as it does so within the already existing rule of law. I don't have to open my doors to the public if I choose not to do so. You don't have a right to my business. And if I choose to close my doors for the sake of the community's health you have little recourse beyond taking your business elsewhere.

Lastly, we do not have a Constitutionally guaranteed or protected right to make others sick. Liberties come with responsibilities. If every individual thought more about responsible conduct there would be little concern about government control or lack thereof.

"Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law." (Rom. 13:8)
"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love." (1 Jn. 4:18)

One last parting thought: I've read a few Christians here in CF asserting COVID-19 is judgment from God. I wonder how many Christians, the judgment-oriented ones in particular, consider government responses to be in keeping with Romans 13:1ff.[/INDENT]

Thank you for your reply. My primary concern is to do the will of God. That being said we must all be concerned with our government overstepping its boundaries. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. If and when our government oversteps it must be checked or else it will invariably overstep a little more the next time and continue until we have been enslaved by it. Perhaps that is the will of God. I don't know which is what I am struggling with.

I do not think it is ALWAYS the case that these people live in the poles. Our "rights" are limited to where they infringe on others rights. You might say that ignoring quarantine and infecting others is indeed infringing on others right, that is an argument that can be made. I would say that i can see both sides of that argument.

I think my entire reason for this post I think has been mostly overlooked as if i am saying we should all either ignore our government or start a revolution. That is NOT what I am trying to say.

I believe as Christians we have a duty to love one another and protect them as much as we can. Therefore we should remain in our homes as much as possible to prevent the spread of this virus. However I cannot ignore the what i feel is overreach by our government.

I will never claim to be a constitutional lawyer but then few of us are. I think the constitution was written in very plain and simple language and you need not be a constitutional lawyer to understand it.

In the end it seems we ALL want to keep people healthy but it does seem that we differ on what is acceptable for our governments to do in a situation such as this. For me I will always error on the side of freedom over safety.

stvns78 · Mar 31, 2020

sfs said:
Yes, in the American system of government, that is exactly what makes something constitutional. It seems like a more sensible system than relying on what some guy on the internet thinks is constitutional.

By the way isn't this a Christian forum? Why are we talking about defending our rights even if it harms others rather than talking about what sacrifices we could be making to protect others?

I was afraid this would devolve as it has from its original intent. I am also to blame for following it downward. I came seeking others perspective to a struggle I am having. What I got was a combo of passive aggressive and legitimate responses.

This thread has ran its course and no further commenting is necessary and it will only serve to divide us more it would seem.

God bless everyone and be safe.

Josheb · Mar 31, 2020

Please read through the entire post befre responding. Thx

stvns78 said:
Thank you for your reply. My primary concern is to do the will of God.

Yep. Amen.

stvns78 said:
That being said we must all be concerned with our government overstepping its boundaries.

Why?

How is that relevant?

Let me clarify those two questions: I do not read anything specific in this op that evidences, let alone proves, the government overstepping its boundaries. What I do read is a lot of worry. There is a lot of non-specific worry about what might happen or what maybe could sort kinda happen and not anything that actually has happened and no evidence any of the worries are likely.

So...… in the absence of any such evidence why must we be concerned?

stvns78 said:
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

That is cliché. Not only is that cliché, but in the absence of any evidence that is what is logically known as a red herring. This is important, stvns, because the Holy Spirit does not reason fallaciously. Scripturally speaking this is evidence of a simple dichotomy: flesh versus Spirit. Christians often argue false dichotomies and neglect the dichotomies scripture does asserts. This may be one of them. The evidence of fallacy is a dead give away indicating the flesh at work, not Spirit-empowered reason.

I am not saying we should never have any of the concerns this op broaches. I am saying we should always have a scriptural and rational basis for having such concerns and I have yet to read them in this op, and if the only reason they're being broached now is because of COVID then I think that warrants examination.

stvns78 said:
If and when our government oversteps it must be checked...

Yep. I see no evidence of such a condition in this op. If the intent of this op is fear-mongering then I reject that purpose and will do what I can in this discussion to refute all such efforts. If the intent is to express personal angst then you're playing to my wheelhouse

and I might help if the effort is authentic. If the intent is alarm with various degrees of justification then many of the Christians here can (and have, and will) provide a diversity of iron (Pr. 27:17). If this op is simply an expression of general concern then I'm in complete agreement with the op but believe that's a short conversation. "Yep, completely agree, Next?" Maybe we discuss how Christians should properly understand government rule and civic responsibility but that doesn't look like what this op is about.

stvns78 said:
I don't know which is what I am struggling with.

Maybe these exchanges will help sorting it out.

stvns78 said:
I think my entire reason for this post I think has been mostly overlooked...

Where might a poster look to find the "entire reason for this post" clearly stated? Where is the thesis statement for this op specifically articulated? Because if it hasn't been specifically stated then blaming others for overlooking something not clearly stated is a problem to be solved and one that will likely obstruct your own purposes.

stvns78 said:
I believe as Christians we have a duty to love one another and protect them as much as we can. Therefore we should remain in our homes as much as possible to prevent the spread of this virus. However I cannot ignore the what i feel is overreach by our government.

Specify the overreach.

stvns78 said:
...it does seem that we differ on what is acceptable for our governments to do in a situation such as this. For me I will always error on the side of freedom over safety.

Please be specific.

Just this morning I went to the Virginia Commonwealth and Maryland State websites and downloaded and printed the respective governor's latest executive orders. I therefore know what my liberties, responsibilites, and liabilities are and are not. I printed copies for my wife and she and I discussed them and I left copies out on the kitchen table for the kids to read, contemplate, and discuss if they feel so inclined. I just repeated that process again here at work and it took me 111 minutes and 19 seconds. I therefore do not think anyone with a computer has any excuse for not knowing what is and isn't going on. Each morning I also check the CDC statistics so I know whether or not the news casts are accurate or full of dross.

How about you? What have you done to know?

stvns78 · Mar 31, 2020

You said a lot in that post so I may not cover it all.

First this OP was not to fear-monger in anyway. It was intended to ask others perspective on a situation I am struggling with. From the OP:

"The bible tells me to submit to the governing authorities but what does that really mean? The founders of our governing authority told us we have a duty to resist tyranny. So if i defy an edict from the current governing authority that our founders tells us to defy am I disobeying God? Were our founders disobeying God when they rebelled against England? If evil men and women pervert the authority that which God placed over us, do I still have a duty to obey? Or did God allow the perversion and we are still subject to his judgement if we disobey?"

All I am looking for is opinions to these questions. Perhaps I editorialized too much and I apologize if so. I meant to provide background to these questions.

Often we complicate things that are actually quite simple. Seems even more so over the internet.

Specific examples are mayors threatening to permanently close houses of worship that do not comply with their commands. Denying peoples right to property in closing their business and refusing them to travel to other homes they may own. Closing down firearms stores for the express purpose of violating people's second amendment. Threats of enforceable quarantines. I can go on and will if you desire more examples. Some of these are in the threat stage and some are in practice. The main question is if and when the threats become action am I in judgment of God to disobey those unconstitutional orders? For now lets take the pandemic aspect out of the equation. And then if a pandemic changes your outlook?

Honestly at this point I am weary of posting anything online anymore. It always seems to go sideways, perhaps its my fault. That is never my intention for it to be this way.

Hank77 · Mar 31, 2020

stvns78 said:
I am also VERY concerned about what our local, state, and federal governments are doing. I have seen and read about many examples of governments overstepping their Constitutional boundaries. I have read about mayors threatening to fine and imprison people who violate their stay-in-place orders. Denying citizens their right to peacefully assemble, religious freedoms, freedom of movement. Forced quarantines are both unconstitutional and unenforceable.

I feel that any violation to our liberties must be immediately met with push back regardless of the situation.

Do you object to the draft in times of war?

stvns78 · Mar 31, 2020

Hank77 said:
Do you object to the draft in times of war?

Please elaborate on the relevance.

Thank you

Hank77 · Mar 31, 2020

stvns78 said:
Please elaborate on the relevance.

Thank you

The draft forces people to leave their homes and families and endangers their very lives. If they don't comply they go to jail. The draft, and continued registration at 18, is for the greater good when the country is at war. Ultimately to save lives and our way of life.

We are fighting a war now and everything the governments are asking and ordering us to do is for the greater good of the country. Ultimately to save lives and our way of life.

SkyWriting · Mar 31, 2020

stvns78 said:
Let me say first that I think people should stay home as much as possible to prevent the spread of this virus. I am very saddened by the illness and death this virus is causing.
I am two thing above all:
1. A Christian
2. A freedom loving, flag waving, red blooded American
I am also VERY concerned about what our local, state, and federal governments are doing. I have seen and read about many examples of governments overstepping their Constitutional boundaries. I have read about mayors threatening to fine and imprison people who violate their stay-in-place orders. Denying citizens their right to peacefully assemble, religious freedoms, freedom of movement. Forced quarantines are both unconstitutional and unenforceable.

And you would be wrong. Order takes priority over all rights.
The supreme court has always held to this.

The rights of people to assemble do not take priority over order, or free speech, over assembly, and in this case, the spread of disease and death to innocent people, like all your family and friends and co-workers.

stvns78 · Mar 31, 2020

SkyWriting said:
And you would be wrong. Order takes priority over all rights.
The supreme court has always held to this.

The rights of people to assemble do not take priority over order, or free speech, over assembly, and in this case, the spread of disease and death to innocent people, like all your family and friends and co-workers.

Please elaborate on what I am wrong about. Also citation is requested where SCOTUS has ruled that order takes priority over rights. Furthermore you failed to address the purpose of the OP which is the questions I was asking in it. I will take the blame for that.

May i infer that you are in the camp that, at least in this case, government must be obeyed regardless if those orders violate the constitution? And that in disobeying government orders would be disobeying Gods will? That is what I am looking for opinions on.

Thank you

SkyWriting · Mar 31, 2020

stvns78 said:
Please elaborate on what I am wrong about. Also citation is requested where SCOTUS has ruled that order takes priority over rights. Furthermore you failed to address the purpose of the OP which is the questions I was asking in it. I will take the blame for that.

May i infer that you are in the camp that, at least in this case, government must be obeyed regardless if those orders violate the constitution? And that in disobeying government orders would be disobeying Gods will? That is what I am looking for opinions on.

Thank you

Oh....yes I have an opinion on that. :holy:

1 Peter 2:13-17
2 Peter 2:10
Titus 3
1 Timothy 2
Psalms 22:28
Daniel 2:20-21
Romans 13
Deuteronomy 16:18-20
Revelation 1
Romans 13
Proverbs 21
John 19:11
Mark 3:24
Proverbs 29
Proverbs 8:15
Psalms 94:20
Deuteronomy 28
Daniel 2:21
John 19:10-11
Jude 1:8
Colossians 1:15-17
Ecclesiastes 10:20
Acts 8:32
Acts 23:5
Matthew 10:38

Exodus 22:28
“You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people.

Acts 23:5
And Paul said, “I did not know, brothers, that he was the high priest,
for it is written, ‘You shall not speak evil of a ruler of your people.’”

stvns78 · Mar 31, 2020

SkyWriting said:
Oh....yes I have an opinion on that.

1 Peter 2:13-17
2 Peter 2:10
Titus 3
1 Timothy 2
Psalms 22:28
Daniel 2:20-21
Romans 13
Deuteronomy 16:18-20
Revelation 1
Romans 13
Proverbs 21
John 19:11
Mark 3:24
Proverbs 29
Proverbs 8:15
Psalms 94:20
Deuteronomy 28
Daniel 2:21
John 19:10-11
Jude 1:8
Colossians 1:15-17
Ecclesiastes 10:20
Acts 8:32
Acts 23:5
Matthew 10:38

Exodus 22:28
“You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people.

Acts 23:5
And Paul said, “I did not know, brothers, that he was the high priest,
for it is written, ‘You shall not speak evil of a ruler of your people.’”

Thank you for the verses. I have a follow up question. In your opinion do you think the founders of the USA were disobeying God when they rebelled from England?

BTW this not a gotcha, just asking an honest question. I see two possibilities:

If they were disobeying God when they rebelled then this country was founded from disobedience to God and should be judged. They did not obey the governing authority regardless of how tyrannical it was.

If they were not disobeying God when they rebelled then that means we are also not disobeying God when disobedience to the authority becomes necessary.

Perhaps the more pertinent question would be. How much tyranny should a Christian take before disobedience to the authority, if any? Meaning we should always obey our government to withhold Gods judgment regardless of how corrupt and tyrannical it is? If that is the will of God then so be it, who am I to stand in the way of Gods will.

charsan · Mar 31, 2020

stvns78 said:
Lets not forget that our founders believed in the cause of liberty so much that they were willing to "mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor"

America is no longer like this, 200 plus years and the great experiment is almost dead. Can man really maintain liberty or will is it always destined to fade away until it is gone. The young have to carry the torch for freedom, can they do something they may not even understand.

stvns78 said:
My goal of this post was to get others perspectives on how they deal with obeying Gods command of obeying our governing authorities and obeying (what they are convinced) unconstitutional edicts that our founders told us we have a duty to disobey. Perhaps its not a struggle for you, thats fine, I am looking for people who do struggle with this and how they come to terms if at all.

I haven't come to terms with it and I still get mad. I get mad at the media for instilling fear in the populace for decades, I get mad at our leaders for not defending freedom, I cry because I see the death of America and as one man in the minority who loves freedom I can do nothing

charsan · Mar 31, 2020

SkyWriting said:
Oh....yes I have an opinion on that.

1 Peter 2:13-17
2 Peter 2:10
Titus 3
1 Timothy 2
Psalms 22:28
Daniel 2:20-21
Romans 13
Deuteronomy 16:18-20
Revelation 1
Romans 13
Proverbs 21
John 19:11
Mark 3:24
Proverbs 29
Proverbs 8:15
Psalms 94:20
Deuteronomy 28
Daniel 2:21
John 19:10-11
Jude 1:8
Colossians 1:15-17
Ecclesiastes 10:20
Acts 8:32
Acts 23:5
Matthew 10:38

Exodus 22:28
“You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people.

Acts 23:5
And Paul said, “I did not know, brothers, that he was the high priest,
for it is written, ‘You shall not speak evil of a ruler of your people.’”

So were the founders wrong then? Should we go back to England?

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