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mmksparbud

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I showed you where the text says that Jesus was now speaking to Daniel. There is no mention of Gabriel in chapter ten.

This is another vision and it does not say that Gabriel is speaking.

Jesus is still speaking at the end of chapter eleven.


You did not show me that. The verse says he saw Jesus in a vision and he fell on his face. Then a hand raised him up and strengthened him and went on to explain what his visions means. Gabriel is the o9ne that has been speaking to 'Daniel throughout the book of "Daniel. If you wish to believe it is Jesus then OK---it is not my belief and I never said you have to believe what I do. Daniel fell on his face---that was not in vision, he actually fell on his face and the hand was not in vision either----to me.
 
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klutedavid

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You did not show me that. The verse says he saw Jesus in a vision and he fell on his face. Then a hand raised him up and strengthened him and went on to explain what his visions means. Gabriel is the o9ne that has been speaking to 'Daniel throughout the book of "Daniel. If you wish to believe it is Jesus then OK---it is not my belief and I never said you have to believe what I do. Daniel fell on his face---that was not in vision, he actually fell on his face and the hand was not in vision either----to me.
Daniel is clearly speaking to Jesus.

Daniel 10:16
And behold, the one who resembled a human being was touching my lips; then I opened my mouth and spoke and said to him who was standing before me,
“O my lord, as a result of the vision anguish has come upon me, and I have retained no strength.

Notice that Daniel does not use the name, Gabriel, but the title, 'O my Lord'.

Also, Daniel states that the one who resembled a human being touched his lips. That human being is Jesus.

It is beyond any doubt that Daniel is in a conversation with Jesus.
 
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BobRyan

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Bob,

In several posts, you apparently assume the "the Angel of the Lord" is Michael the Archangel and from there you conclude that Michael is Jesus Christ.

Do you know which post that would be?

My point is that a lot of folks that are not Ellen White make the same claim about someone the Bible calls an "angel" being in reality -- mighty God - In fact God the Son.

My point is not that they are arguing that Michael is another example of it... my point is that Ellen White argued that Michael is yet another example of that same thing already accepted by most Bible scholars in the case of the "Angel of the Lord"

If you check the degree of "harrrumph" that you find on the first few pages of this thread it is almost all directed to the OP idea that someone is claiming that (unlike the Angel of the Lord) - the case being made for Michael is the JW case about a created being - supposedly the preincarnate Christ who is merely a created angel (so then not at all like the case of the "Angel of the LORD").

By contrast the case that Ellen White makes is that they are both examples of the same principle - having God the Son identified under the name or title of an angel in the OT. IT is not a claim to being incarnate as an angel just appearing in that form.

If one were to choose to "accurately" identify the position many SDAs take on that point and then oppose it - they would not immediately begin with JWs also argue that about Michael - because as we all know - no JW doctrine teaches that Michael is God the Son, fully God, fully equal with God the Father.

Your entire thread would have to "start over" if you were to just oppose those points where the SDA claims about Michael and the Angel of The Lord differ with other denominations. Choose something other than an easy-to-debunk straw man to make your case.

Step 1 .. accurately state the opposing view
Step 2.. provide evidence that the view taken by the opposing group "in real life" is not correct

On this thread you struggle with Step 1 by lifting statements out of context and so you never get to Step 2.
 
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BobRyan

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You are missing an obvious point about the angel of the Lord.

The angel of the Lord has a secret name and it's not Gabriel or Michael.

Genesis 32:27-30
So he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” He said, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.” Then Jacob asked him and said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And he blessed him there. So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.”

The angel of the Lord does not reveal His identity here.

Gen 32
24 Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. 25 Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob’s hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. 26 And He said, “Let Me go, for the day breaks.”
But he said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me!”
27 So He said to him, “What is your name?”
He said, “Jacob.”
28 And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”
29 Then Jacob asked, saying, “Tell me Your name, I pray.”
And He said, “Why is it that you ask about My name?” And He blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” 31 Just as he crossed over Penuel the sun rose on him, and he limped on his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the children of Israel do not eat the muscle that shrank, which is on the hip socket, because He touched the socket of Jacob’s hip in the muscle that shrank.

Hello, Hosea 12:4 state that Jacob was struggle or wrestle with the angel..

Hos 12
3 In the womb he took his brother by the heel,
And in his maturity he contended with God.
4 Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed;
He wept and sought His favor.
He found Him at Bethel
And there He spoke with us,

Daniel is clearly speaking to Jesus.
Daniel 10:16
...
Notice that Daniel does not use the name, Gabriel, but the title, 'O my Lord'.

Also, Daniel states that the one who resembled a human being touched his lips. That human being is Jesus.

You say the man dressed in linen is Jesus even though described as "a man"
so then "another vote" that God can appear as a man.

So then we can't say "harrumph!" when God is identified in Gen 32:28,30
We can't say "harrumph" when he is called "a man" in Gen 32:24 and Gen 18:1-3
We can't say "harrumph" when he is called "the angel" in Hos 12:4

Because infinite God can appear in those forms.
 
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BobRyan

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You did not show me that. The verse says he saw Jesus in a vision and he fell on his face. Then a hand raised him up and strengthened him and went on to explain what his visions means. Gabriel is the o9ne that has been speaking to 'Daniel throughout the book of "Daniel. If you wish to believe it is Jesus then OK---it is not my belief and I never said you have to believe what I do. Daniel fell on his face---that was not in vision, he actually fell on his face and the hand was not in vision either----to me.

Don't be mislead into thinking that bowing down is "not real" when someone is seeing a vision of something that is supernatural standing before them. Vision does not mean "not really" or "not in reality". It can be just a "vision in the night" or it can be in real life.

Matt 17
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified. 7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.” 8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone. 9 As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.”

In Rev 19 "fell down on my face to worship him"
9 Then he *said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he *said to me, “These are true words of God.” 10 Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he *said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

That is not a statement you find in Dan 10 "Then I fell at his feet to worship him ". In Dan 10 it is more like "I passed out" :)

Dan 10
8 So I was left alone and saw this great vision; yet no strength was left in me, for my natural color turned to a deathly pallor, and I retained no strength.

9 But I heard the sound of his words; and as soon as I heard the sound of his words, I fell into a deep sleep on my face, with my face to the ground.

15 When he had spoken to me according to these words, I turned my face toward the ground and became speechless. 16 And behold, one who resembled a human being was touching my lips; then I opened my mouth and spoke and said to him who was standing before me, “O my lord, as a result of the vision anguish has come upon me, and I have retained no strength.
17 For how can such a servant of my lord talk with such as my lord? As for me, there remains just now no strength in me, nor has any breath been left in me.”


18 Then this one with human appearance touched me again and strengthened me. 19 He said, “O man of high esteem, do not be afraid. Peace be with you; take courage and be courageous!” Now as soon as he spoke to me, I received strength and said, “May my lord speak, for you have strengthened me.

============================= conclusion

1. Dan 10 is Not case of bowing for worship - but of losing strength.
2. There are two descriptions and so possibly two beings.

First being : is described
5 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a certain man dressed in linen, whose waist was girded with a belt of pure gold of Uphaz. 6 His body also was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches,


(So that would be the pre-incarnate Christ) God the Son.

=======================================
second being: only description is "resembled a human being"

15 When he had spoken to me according to these words, I turned my face toward the ground and became speechless. 16 And behold, one who resembled a human being was touching my lips; then I opened my mouth and spoke and said to him who was standing before me,

18 Then this one with human appearance touched me again and strengthened me.

(so then - possibly Gabriel)

Are they the same person or two different beings? looks like two persons referenced in the chapter of Dan 10..see the context of the verse in each case to know which person for the given verse you are looking at
 
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klutedavid

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Gen 32
24 Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. 25 Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob’s hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. 26 And He said, “Let Me go, for the day breaks.”
But he said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me!”
27 So He said to him, “What is your name?”
He said, “Jacob.”
28 And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”
29 Then Jacob asked, saying, “Tell me Your name, I pray.”
And He said, “Why is it that you ask about My name?” And He blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” 31 Just as he crossed over Penuel the sun rose on him, and he limped on his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the children of Israel do not eat the muscle that shrank, which is on the hip socket, because He touched the socket of Jacob’s hip in the muscle that shrank.



Hos 12
3 In the womb he took his brother by the heel,
And in his maturity he contended with God.
4 Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed;
He wept and sought His favor.
He found Him at Bethel
And there He spoke with us,



You say the man dressed in linen is Jesus even though described as "a man"
so then "another vote" that God can appear as a man.

So then we can't say "harrumph!" when God is identified in Gen 32:28,30
We can't say "harrumph" when he is called "a man" in Gen 32:24 and Gen 18:1-3
We can't say "harrumph" when he is called "the angel" in Hos 12:4

Because infinite God can appear in those forms.
Hello Bob.

I was talking to mmksparbud then you appeared in a vision.

So is Daniel in chapter ten talking to Gabriel or Jesus?
 
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BobRyan

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Hello Bob.

I was talking to mmksparbud then you appeared in a vision.

So is Daniel in chapter ten talking to Gabriel or Jesus?

Hi KluteDavid - here is my response to mmksparbud answering that point..

Don't be mislead into thinking that bowing down is "not real" when someone is seeing a vision of something that is supernatural standing before them. Vision does not mean "not really" or "not in reality". It can be just a "vision in the night" or it can be in real life.

Matt 17
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified. 7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.” 8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone. 9 As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.”

In Rev 19 "fell down on my face to worship him"
9 Then he *said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he *said to me, “These are true words of God.” 10 Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he *said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

That is not a statement you find in Dan 10 "Then I fell at his feet to worship him ". In Dan 10 it is more like "I passed out" :)

Dan 10
8 So I was left alone and saw this great vision; yet no strength was left in me, for my natural color turned to a deathly pallor, and I retained no strength.

9 But I heard the sound of his words; and as soon as I heard the sound of his words, I fell into a deep sleep on my face, with my face to the ground.

15 When he had spoken to me according to these words, I turned my face toward the ground and became speechless. 16 And behold, one who resembled a human being was touching my lips; then I opened my mouth and spoke and said to him who was standing before me, “O my lord, as a result of the vision anguish has come upon me, and I have retained no strength.
17 For how can such a servant of my lord talk with such as my lord? As for me, there remains just now no strength in me, nor has any breath been left in me.”


18 Then this one with human appearance touched me again and strengthened me. 19 He said, “O man of high esteem, do not be afraid. Peace be with you; take courage and be courageous!” Now as soon as he spoke to me, I received strength and said, “May my lord speak, for you have strengthened me.

============================= conclusion

1. Dan 10 is Not case of bowing for worship - but of losing strength.
2. There are two descriptions and so possibly two beings.

First being : is described
5 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a certain man dressed in linen, whose waist was girded with a belt of pure gold of Uphaz. 6 His body also was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches,

second being: only description is "resembled a human being"
15 When he had spoken to me according to these words, I turned my face toward the ground and became speechless. 16 And behold, one who resembled a human being was touching my lips; then I opened my mouth and spoke and said to him who was standing before me,

18 Then this one with human appearance touched me again and strengthened me.

Are they the same person or two different beings? looks like two persons referenced in the chapter of Dan 10 depending on what verse you are reading in the chapter.

my post ends with this "Are they the same person or two different beings? looks like two persons referenced in the chapter of Dan 10..see the context of the verse in each case to know which person for the given verse you are looking at."

The chapter does not say that Daniel spoke to "the man dressed in linen" but he does speak to Gabriel the one described as "resembling a human"

Let me know if that helps.
 
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klutedavid

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Hi KluteDavid - here is my response to mmksparbud answering that point..



my post ends with this "Are they the same person or two different beings? looks like two persons referenced in the chapter of Dan 10..see the context of the verse in each case to know which person for the given verse you are looking at."

The chapter does not say that Daniel spoke to "the man dressed in linen" but he does speak to Gabriel the one described as "resembling a human"

Let me know if that helps.
Hello BobRyan.

Your post only confused the reading of chapter ten of Daniel

In your post you commented on chapter ten of Daniel, and you stated the following.
Are they the same person or two different beings? looks like two persons referenced in the chapter of Dan 10
depending on what verse you are reading
Well Bob, the so called man dressed in linen is obviously from the detailed description, someone far greater than just a man dressed in linen.

We have a new person introduced to Daniel and a person of an overwhelming appearance. (Ezekiel 1, Reveleation 1)

Firstly Bob, notice what happens to Ezekiel when he beholds this same glowing metallic person.

'And when I saw it, I fell on my face and heard a voice speaking.' (Ezekiel 1:28)

Secondly Bob, notice what happens to John when he beholds the same glowing metallic person.

'When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man.' (Revelation 17)

So what happens to Daniel when he sees this glowing metallic person.

'Yet no strength was left in me, for my natural color turned to a deathly pallor, and I retained no strength. But I heard the sound of his words; and as soon as I heard the sound of his words, I fell into a deep sleep on my face, with my face to the ground. (Daniel 10:8-9)

Daniel calls this glowing metallic person by the title, 'my Lord'.

The appearance of Gabriel is not described in epic detail.

Gabriel is never addressed as 'my Lord'.

Gabriel is not mentioned in chapter ten.

Daniel states that the glowing metallic person spoke to him.

'But I heard the sound of his words.' (Daniel 10:9)

After hearing the sound of His words Daniel then responds.

Make no mistake, this glowing metallic person, i.e., 'my Lord' is the only one speaking with Daniel in chapter ten.
 
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mmksparbud

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Hello BobRyan.

Your post only confused the reading of chapter ten of Daniel

In your post you commented on chapter ten of Daniel, and you stated the following.
Well Bob, the so called man dressed in linen is obviously from the detailed description, someone far greater than just a man dressed in linen.

We have a new person introduced to Daniel and a person of an overwhelming appearance. (Ezekiel 1, Reveleation 1)

Firstly Bob, notice what happens to Ezekiel when he beholds this same glowing metallic person.

'And when I saw it, I fell on my face and heard a voice speaking.' (Ezekiel 1:28)

Secondly Bob, notice what happens to John when he beholds the same glowing metallic person.

'When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man.' (Revelation 17)

So what happens to Daniel when he sees this glowing metallic person.

'Yet no strength was left in me, for my natural color turned to a deathly pallor, and I retained no strength. But I heard the sound of his words; and as soon as I heard the sound of his words, I fell into a deep sleep on my face, with my face to the ground. (Daniel 10:8-9)

Daniel calls this glowing metallic person by the title, 'my Lord'.

The appearance of Gabriel is not described in epic detail.

Gabriel is never addressed as 'my Lord'.

Gabriel is not mentioned in chapter ten.

Daniel states that the glowing metallic person spoke to him.

'But I heard the sound of his words.' (Daniel 10:9)

After hearing the sound of His words Daniel then responds.

Make no mistake, this glowing metallic person, i.e., 'my Lord' is the only one speaking with Daniel in chapter ten.

There are two persons in this passage. It is obvious the metallic figure is Christ, He in no way, at this time resembles a man.

Dan 10:18 Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,
Daniel fell on his face when He saw Christ, so you think that then Daniel got used to this image and it just became like the appeasrance of a man and no need to fall on your face again? I do not.
 
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klutedavid

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There are two persons in this passage. It is obvious the metallic figure is Christ, He in no way, at this time resembles a man.

Dan 10:18 Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,
Daniel fell on his face when He saw Christ, so you think that then Daniel got used to this image and it just became like the appeasrance of a man and no need to fall on your face again? I do not.
I am struggling to understand your reply.

You said the following.

"It is obvious the metallic figure is Christ, He in no way, at this time resembles a man."

Are you saying that the glowing metallic figure does not have the appearance of a man?
 
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BobRyan

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You did not show me that. The verse says he saw Jesus in a vision and he fell on his face. Then a hand raised him up and strengthened him and went on to explain what his visions means. Gabriel is the o9ne that has been speaking to 'Daniel throughout the book of "Daniel. If you wish to believe it is Jesus then OK---it is not my belief and I never said you have to believe what I do. Daniel fell on his face---that was not in vision, he actually fell on his face and the hand was not in vision either----to me.

Don't be mislead into thinking that bowing down is "not real" when someone is seeing a vision of something that is supernatural standing before them. Vision does not mean "not really" or "not in reality". It can be just a "vision in the night" or it can be in real life.

Matt 17
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified. 7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.” 8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone. 9 As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.”

In Rev 19 "fell down on my face to worship him"
9 Then he *said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he *said to me, “These are true words of God.” 10 Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he *said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

That is not a statement you find in Dan 10 "Then I fell at his feet to worship him ". In Dan 10 it is more like "I passed out" :)

Dan 10
8 So I was left alone and saw this great vision; yet no strength was left in me, for my natural color turned to a deathly pallor, and I retained no strength.

9 But I heard the sound of his words; and as soon as I heard the sound of his words, I fell into a deep sleep on my face, with my face to the ground.

15 When he had spoken to me according to these words, I turned my face toward the ground and became speechless. 16 And behold, one who resembled a human being was touching my lips; then I opened my mouth and spoke and said to him who was standing before me, “O my lord, as a result of the vision anguish has come upon me, and I have retained no strength.
17 For how can such a servant of my lord talk with such as my lord? As for me, there remains just now no strength in me, nor has any breath been left in me.”


18 Then this one with human appearance touched me again and strengthened me. 19 He said, “O man of high esteem, do not be afraid. Peace be with you; take courage and be courageous!” Now as soon as he spoke to me, I received strength and said, “May my lord speak, for you have strengthened me.

============================= conclusion

1. Dan 10 is Not case of bowing for worship - but of losing strength.
2. There are two descriptions and so possibly two beings.

First being : is described
5 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a certain man dressed in linen, whose waist was girded with a belt of pure gold of Uphaz. 6 His body also was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches,

(So that would be the pre-incarnate Christ) God the Son.

=======================================
second being: only description is "resembled a human being"

15 When he had spoken to me according to these words, I turned my face toward the ground and became speechless. 16 And behold, one who resembled a human being was touching my lips; then I opened my mouth and spoke and said to him who was standing before me,

18 Then this one with human appearance touched me again and strengthened me.

(so then - possibly Gabriel)

Are they the same person or two different beings? looks like two persons referenced in the chapter of Dan 10..see the context of the verse in each case to know which person for the given verse you are looking at

Hello BobRyan.

Your post only confused the reading of chapter ten of Daniel

You can't be serious. Read it again -- (I have added some bold text to help your reading of it) -- and let me know if I can help.

Make no mistake, this glowing metallic person, i.e., 'my Lord' is the only one speaking with Daniel in chapter ten.

Your inference at that point is ignoring a few details as I just pointed out
 
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BobRyan

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Don't be mislead into thinking that bowing down is "not real" when someone is seeing a vision of something that is supernatural standing before them. Vision does not mean "not really" or "not in reality". It can be just a "vision in the night" or it can be in real life.

Matt 17
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified. 7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.” 8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone. 9 As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.”

In Rev 19 "fell down on my face to worship him"
9 Then he *said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he *said to me, “These are true words of God.” 10 Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he *said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

That is not a statement you find in Dan 10 "Then I fell at his feet to worship him ". In Dan 10 it is more like "I passed out" :)

Dan 10
8 So I was left alone and saw this great vision; yet no strength was left in me, for my natural color turned to a deathly pallor, and I retained no strength.

9 But I heard the sound of his words; and as soon as I heard the sound of his words, I fell into a deep sleep on my face, with my face to the ground.

15 When he had spoken to me according to these words, I turned my face toward the ground and became speechless. 16 And behold, one who resembled a human being was touching my lips; then I opened my mouth and spoke and said to him who was standing before me, “O my lord, as a result of the vision anguish has come upon me, and I have retained no strength.
17 For how can such a servant of my lord talk with such as my lord? As for me, there remains just now no strength in me, nor has any breath been left in me.”


18 Then this one with human appearance touched me again and strengthened me. 19 He said, “O man of high esteem, do not be afraid. Peace be with you; take courage and be courageous!” Now as soon as he spoke to me, I received strength and said, “May my lord speak, for you have strengthened me.

============================= conclusion

1. Dan 10 is Not case of bowing for worship - but of losing strength.
2. There are two descriptions and so possibly two beings.

First being : is described
5 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a certain man dressed in linen, whose waist was girded with a belt of pure gold of Uphaz. 6 His body also was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches,


(So that would be the pre-incarnate Christ) God the Son.

=======================================
second being: only description is "resembled a human being"

15 When he had spoken to me according to these words, I turned my face toward the ground and became speechless. 16 And behold, one who resembled a human being was touching my lips; then I opened my mouth and spoke and said to him who was standing before me,

18 Then this one with human appearance touched me again and strengthened me.

(so then - possibly Gabriel)

Are they the same person or two different beings? looks like two persons referenced in the chapter of Dan 10..see the context of the verse in each case to know which person for the given verse you are looking at



In your post you commented on chapter ten of Daniel, and you stated the following.
Well Bob, the so called man dressed in linen is obviously from the detailed description, someone far greater than just a man dressed in linen.

Indeed - hence the bold text for added emphasis..

"(So that would be the pre-incarnate Christ) God the Son."

So what happens to Daniel when he sees this glowing metallic person.

'Yet no strength was left in me, for my natural color turned to a deathly pallor, and I retained no strength.

Indeed - he passed out.


But I heard the sound of his words
; and as soon as I heard the sound of his words, I fell into a deep sleep on my face, with my face to the ground. (Daniel 10:8-9)

Daniel calls this glowing metallic person by the title, 'my Lord'.

1. In the actual text - he never speaks to the "man in linen" at all.
2. Sarah calls Abraham Lord - 1 Peter 3:6
3. Abraham called "my Lord" by the nations around him.

Genesis 23:11
“No, my lord, hear me; I give you the field, and I give you the cave that is in it. In the presence of the sons of my people I give it to you; bury your dead.”

4. Rebekah called Abraham's servant - "my Lord"

Gen 24
18 She said, “Drink, my lord”; and she quickly lowered her jar to her hand, and gave him a drink. 19 Now when she had finished giving him a drink, she said, “I will draw also for your camels until they have finished drinking.”

5. Aaron calls Moses "my Lord"
Ex 32:21 Then Moses said to Aaron, “What did this people do to you, that you have brought such great sin upon them?” 22 Aaron said, “Do not let the anger of my lord burn; you know the people yourself, that they are prone to evil.

==================

So while I agree that the "man in linen" is God the Son appearing as "a man in linen," - I do not agree that addressing someone as "my Lord" in the OT - means that person is infinite God.

details. :)
 
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mmksparbud

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I am struggling to understand your reply.

You said the following.

"It is obvious the metallic figure is Christ, He in no way, at this time resembles a man."

Are you saying that the glowing metallic figure does not have the appearance of a man?

It is quite obvious that this is not just a plain figure of a man, as when it says "appearance of a man". He is not being a man but a metallic like figure. Far more awesome. It is quite a different description ---as far as I'm concerned. You can believe what you want.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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If Michael the archangel is a name of Jesus and Jesus is also called Lord. Then you will need to address the following verse.

Jude 1:9
But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Michael the archangel appealed to a higher authority, the Lord. So we see that Michael is not Jesus.

Hebrews 6:13[ The Certainty of God’s Promise ] When God made a promise to Abraham, because he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself,

One would have to prove that Michael is God, that is not in scripture.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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We never said He was! He is God, He is the Son of God---Michael, the archangel is a TITLE---just like He is also called The Lamb, doesn't mean He is a real Lamb! Read post #24---angels are not worshipped, they can not just by their presence make anything Holy---yet Michael is worshipped and says that the place is holy.

Joshua 5:13-6:2 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
The Commander of the Lord’s Army
13 When Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him. The man had a sword in his hand. Joshua went to the man and asked, “Are you a friend to our people or are you one of our enemies?”

14 The man answered, “I am not an enemy. I am the commander of the Lord’s army. I have just now come to you.”

Then Joshua bowed his face to the ground to show respect and said, “I am your servant. Does my master have a command for me?”

15 The commander of the Lord’s army answered, “Take off your sandals. The place where you are standing is holy.” So Joshua obeyed him.

6 The gates of the city of Jericho were closed. The people in the city were afraid because the Israelites were near. No one went into the city, and no one came out.

2 Then the Lord said to Joshua, “Look, I will let you defeat the city of Jericho. You will defeat the king and all the fighting men in the city.

Joshua 5:13-6:2 Amplified Bible (AMP)
13 Now when Joshua was by Jericho, he looked up, and behold, [a]a man was standing opposite him with his drawn sword in his hand, and Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us or for our adversaries?” 14 He said, “No; rather I have come now as captain of the army of the Lord.” Then Joshua fell with his face toward the earth and bowed down, and said to him, “What does my lord have to say to his servant?” 15 The captain of the Lord’s army said to Joshua, “Remove your sandals from your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy (set apart to the Lord).” And Joshua did so.

The Conquest of Jericho
6 Now Jericho [a fortified city with high walls] was tightly closed because [of the people’s fear] of the sons of Israel; no one went out or came in. 2 The Lord said to Joshua, “See, I have given Jericho into your hand, with its king and the mighty warriors.

Joshua 5:13-6:2 Expanded Bible (EXB)
13 Joshua was near Jericho when he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a sword in his hand [Ex. 3:2—4:17; Judg. 6:11–23]. Joshua went to him and asked, “Are you ·a friend or an enemy [L for us or for our enemies/adversaries]?”

14 The man answered, “·I am neither [L No]. I have come as the commander of the Lord’s army [C God himself who comes as a warrior; Ex. 15:3].”

Then Joshua bowed facedown on the ground and asked, “Does my ·master [lord] have a ·command [message] for me, his servant?”

15 The commander of the Lord’s army answered, “Take off your sandals, because the place where you are standing is holy [Ex. 3:5].” So Joshua did.

The Fall of Jericho
6 The people of Jericho were afraid because the Israelites were near. They closed the city gates and guarded them [L Now Jericho was tightly shut because of the sons/T children of Israel]. No one went into the city, and no one came out.

2 Then the Lord said to Joshua, “Look, I have given ·you Jericho [L Jericho into your hands], its king, and all its fighting men.

Yehoshua 5:13-6:2 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
13 And it came to pass, when Yehoshua was there by Yericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, hinei, there stood an ish in front of him with his cherev drawn in his yad; and Yehoshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

14 And he said, Lo (no); but as Sar Tze’va Hashem am I now come. And Yehoshua fell on his face to the ground, and did prostrate himself, and said unto him, What saith Adoni unto his eved?

15 And the Sar Tze’va Hashem said unto Yehoshua, Take off thy sandals from off thy feet; for the makom whereon thou standest is kodesh. And Yehoshua did so.

6 Now Yericho was closely shut up because of the Bnei Yisroel; none went out, and none came in.

2 And Hashem said unto Yehoshua, See, I have given into thine yad Yericho, and the melech thereof, and the gibborei hechayil.

This is SDA logic for the claim that Michael was worshipped, the text does not say if it was valid or not.

"
So, what Joshua saw was the Lord! Joshua is told that this ground is holy and he is to take off his shoes. He is in the presence of the Lord. Thus, the Scriptures identify this Being as God and He actually accepted the worship and the reverence that Joshua gave Him, which no created being of heaven will do. He actually invited Joshua to worship and reverence Him!

We also see that Jesus accepted worship when He was on earth! Many times, Jesus accepted the worship of the people around Him (A few examples: Matthew 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; Hebrews 1:6)."Who is Michael the Archangel in the Bible?
 
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Joshua 5 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
5 So the Lord dried up the Jordan River until the Israelites finished crossing it. The kings of the Amorites living west of the Jordan River and the Canaanites living by the Mediterranean Sea heard about this and became very frightened. After that they were not brave enough to stand and fight against the Israelites.

The Israelites Are Circumcised
2 At that time the Lord said to Joshua, “Make knives from flint rocks and circumcise the men of Israel.”

3 So Joshua made knives from flint rocks and circumcised the men of Israel at Gibeath Haaraloth.[a]

4-7 This is why Joshua circumcised the men: After the Israelites left Egypt, all the men who were able to serve in the army were circumcised. While in the desert, many of the fighting men did not listen to the Lord. So the Lord promised that they would not see the “land where much food grows.” He promised our ancestors to give us that land, but because of those men, he forced the people to wander in the desert for 40 years. That way all those fighting men would die. So all the fighting men died, and their sons took their place. But none of the boys who were born in the desert on the trip from Egypt had been circumcised. So Joshua circumcised them.

8 Joshua finished circumcising all the men. The people camped at that place until all the men were healed.

First Passover in Canaan
9 Then the Lord said to Joshua, “You were slaves in Egypt, and this made you ashamed. But today I have taken away that shame.” So Joshua named that place Gilgal. And that place is still named Gilgal today.

10 The Israelites celebrated Passover while they were camped at Gilgal on the plains of Jericho. This was on the evening of the 14th day of the month. 11 The day after Passover, the people ate food that grew in that land. They ate bread made without yeast and roasted grain. 12 The next morning, the manna from heaven stopped coming. This happened the first day after the people ate the food that grew in the land of Canaan. From that time on, the Israelites did not get the manna from heaven.

The Commander of the Lord’s Army
13 When Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him. The man had a sword in his hand. Joshua went to the man and asked, “Are you a friend to our people or are you one of our enemies?”

14 The man answered, “I am not an enemy. I am the commander of the Lord’s army. I have just now come to you.”

Then Joshua bowed his face to the ground to show respect and said, “I am your servant. Does my master have a command for me?”

15 The commander of the Lord’s army answered, “Take off your sandals. The place where you are standing is holy.” So Joshua obeyed him.

Joshua 6 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
6 The gates of the city of Jericho were closed. The people in the city were afraid because the Israelites were near. No one went into the city, and no one came out.

2 Then the Lord said to Joshua, “Look, I will let you defeat the city of Jericho. You will defeat the king and all the fighting men in the city. 3 March around the city with your army once every day for six days. 4 Tell seven of the priests to carry trumpets made from the horns of male sheep and to march in front of the priests who are carrying the Holy Box. On the seventh day march around the city seven times and tell the priests to blow the trumpets while they march. 5 They will make one loud noise from the trumpets. When you hear that noise, tell all the people to begin shouting. When you do this, the walls of the city will fall down and your people will be able to go straight into the city.”

The Battle Against Jericho
6 So Joshua son of Nun called the priests together and said to them, “Carry the Holy Box of the Lord. Tell seven priests to carry the trumpets and march in front of it.”

7 Then Joshua ordered the people, “Now go! March around the city. The soldiers with weapons will march in front of the Holy Box of the Lord.”

8 After Joshua finished speaking to the people, the seven priests with the trumpets began marching before the Lord, blowing the trumpets as they marched. The priests carrying the Lord’s Holy Box followed them. 9 The soldiers with weapons marched in front of the priests who were blowing the horns. And the rest of the men walked behind the Holy Box, marching and blowing their trumpets. 10 Joshua had told the people not to give a war cry. He said, “Don’t shout. Don’t say a word until the day I tell you. Then you will shout.”

11 So Joshua made the priests carry the Holy Box of the Lord around the city one time. Then they went back to the camp and spent the night there.

12 Early the next morning Joshua got up, and the priests carried the Lord’s Holy Box again. 13 The seven priests with the trumpets marched in front of the Lord’s Holy Box, blowing their trumpets. The soldiers with weapons marched in front of them. The rest of the people marched behind the Lord’s Holy Box. During the whole time they marched, the priests were blowing the trumpets. 14 On the second day, they all marched around the city one time. And then they went back to the camp. They continued to do this every day for six days.

15 On the seventh day, they got up at dawn and marched around the city seven times. They marched in the same way they had marched on the days before, but on that day they marched around the city seven times. 16 The seventh time they marched around the city, the priests blew their trumpets. Then Joshua gave the command: “Now, shout! The Lord is giving you this city! 17 The city and everything is to be destroyed as an offering to the Lord. Only Rahab the prostitute and everyone in her house will be left alive. These people must not be killed because she helped the two spies. 18 Remember, we must destroy everything else. Don’t take anything. If you take anything and bring it into our camp, you yourselves will be destroyed, and you will cause trouble for the rest of our people. 19 All the things made from silver, gold, bronze, and iron belong to the Lord. They must be put in the Lord’s treasury.”

20 So then the priests blew the trumpets. When the people heard the trumpets, they began shouting. The walls fell down, and the people ran up into the city. So the Israelites defeated that city. 21 The people destroyed everything in the city. They destroyed everything that was living there. They killed the young and old men, the young and old women, and the cattle, sheep, and donkeys.

22 Joshua talked to the two spies. He said, “You made a promise to the prostitute. So go to her house and bring her out and all those who are with her.”

23 So the two men went into the house and brought out Rahab, her father, mother, brothers, all her family, and all those who were with her. They put all the people in a safe place outside the camp of Israel.

24 Then the Israelites burned the whole city and everything in it except for the things made from silver, gold, bronze, and iron. They put these things in the Lord’s treasury. 25 Joshua saved Rahab the prostitute, her family, and all those who were with her. Joshua let them live because Rahab helped the spies Joshua had sent out to Jericho. Rahab still lives among the Israelites today.

26 At that time Joshua made this important promise. He said,

“Whoever rebuilds Jericho
will be in danger from the Lord.
When he lays the foundation,
he will lose his oldest son.
When he sets up the gates,
he will lose his youngest son.”[a]

27 So the Lord was with Joshua, and Joshua became famous throughout the whole country.

I do not see the Son of God, nor Michael in this text at all.

The Captain of the Lord’s Army (Joshua 5:13-15) | Bible.org
This article identifies the captain as the Lord

So, worship would fit.

Michael an angel like the one in the book of Revelation would have told Joshua to stand up and not to do that because he is only a creature.
 
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mmksparbud

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Hebrews 6:13[ The Certainty of God’s Promise ] When God made a promise to Abraham, because he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself,

One would have to prove that Michael is God, that is not in scripture.

Jesus is God, Michael is another name, title, for Him, as is the Lamb of God---obviously, Jesus is not an actual Lamb. The very name, Michael, means one who is like God.
 
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mmksparbud

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I totally detest the easy to read version---it distorts what is said. I do not accept that version. Joshua worshipped before the angel and no angel can make anything Holy---God's presence alone does that. Likewise, no man has the power to make anything Holy.
 
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mmksparbud

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Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Captain of the Lords Army, Captain of the Host---Michael the archangel---all the same. Jesus commands His angels.
 
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