Prayer Mt 18

2PhiloVoid said:

A distraction? Well, if you want to call fuller Exegesis and Hermeneutics a "distraction," then have at it. But I just call the lack of these things "ignorance."

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It's a distraction, because Jesus, on multiple occasions, make similar promise to Matthew 18. And there is no reason for Jesus to limit the use of 'whatever' to mean only matters pertaining to discipline.

Matt. 21:21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

So, Jesus made some pretty direct statements on how faith and prayer is supposed to work.

So, either you and the rest of Christians have NO faith, or Jesus' promise is false (or Jesus was misquoted).

BigV said:

It's a distraction, because Jesus, on multiple occasions, make similar promise to Matthew 18. And there is no reason for Jesus to limit the use of 'whatever' to mean only matters pertaining to discipline.

Matt. 21:21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

So, Jesus made some pretty direct statements on how faith and prayer is supposed to work.

So, either you and the rest of Christians have NO faith, or Jesus' promise is false (or Jesus was misquoted).

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I've said it before, and I'll say it again. None of us just Willy-Nilly gets to link scriptures together like beads on a string necklace and call it "Interpretation." That kind of thing might fly in a hyper fundamentalist church or in the mind of some hyper-spiritual charismatic "name-it-and-claim-it" type person, BUT it's not going to fly as an example of fuller Exegetical and Hermeneutical acumen. Not here, not now, not today, and not ever! Got it?!

If you keep pushing this, then I'll just keep popping up and smacking it down! (As long as I'm alive ... ) It's that simple. You're not going to destroy Christianity. You're not going to bring the Bible into disrepute. You're not going to slough off the faith of countless thousands who (you're hoping) are reading your posts. None of that is going to happen, or at least, if it does, not in the way that you envision it will.

BigV said:

So, either you and the rest of Christians have NO faith, or Jesus' promise is false (or Jesus was misquoted).

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Or, you're just ignorant, and it's about time for us to start calling it what it is.

2PhiloVoid said:

Or, you're just ignorant, and it's about time for us to start calling it what it is.

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You have a good point. Excuses for why Jesus' promises always fail keep changing. It would actually be a miracle when two or three Christians on earth agree on why Jesus' promise fail. So, you got me. I can't keep up.

Btw, I noticed that the post Edit function has been removed, which is unfortunate.

BigV said:

You have a good point. Excuses for why Jesus' promises always fail keep changing. It would actually be a miracle when two or three Christians on earth agree on why Jesus' promise fail. So, you got me. I can't keep up.

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The "it" of which I was speaking wasn't a reference to the bible. It was a reference to your need of further education.

By the way, what kind of church did you come out of when you defected from the Christian faith? I'm just wondering...

2PhiloVoid said:

By the way, what kind of church did you come out of when you defected from the Christian faith? I'm just wondering...

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I was a fundamentalist.

BigV said:

I was a fundamentalist.

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ok. I thought so. My condolences.

The good news is that, despite the fact than any one of us has things to learn, and situations of mind from which we've all been caught, we can gain wisdom from God through His Church Universal, in all of its guises and denominational expressions, by which we can relearn what it is that Christ would have us know.

2PhiloVoid said:

ok. I thought so. My condolences.

The good news is that, despite the fact than any one of us has things to learn, and situations of mind from which we've all been caught, we can gain wisdom from God through His Church Universal, in all of its guises and denominational expressions, by which we can relearn what it is

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You know what? As I thought about the “context” some more, I realized that Jesus himself didn’t really care about context. New Testament authors didn’t care either.

Consider the following examples:

Mark 2:23-28 Jesus uses example of David and his men eating what was unlawful for them to eat, and justified the actions of his disciples based on this! What “context” is this?

Matthew 2:14-15, Matthew takes a saying in Hosea, which was talking about delivering Israel out of Egypt and applies it as a prophecy about Jesus’s return from Egypt!

And then look at the book of Hebrews with taking passages spoken by David and attributing them as the words of Jesus, or the Son.

BigV said:

You know what? As I thought about the “context” some more, I realized that Jesus himself didn’t really care about context. New Testament authors didn’t care either.

Consider the following examples:

Mark 2:23-28 Jesus uses example of David and his men eating what was unlawful for them to eat, and justified the actions of his disciples based on this! What “context” is this?

Matthew 2:14-15, Matthew takes a saying in Hosea, which was talking about delivering Israel out of Egypt and applies it as a prophecy about Jesus’s return from Egypt!

And then look at the book of Hebrews with taking passages spoken by David and attributing them as the words of Jesus, or the Son.

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You've met Jesus and His disciples in person?! You lucky dog!

Now, can we get back to acknowledging that what I've said about Matthew 18 is correct? Or do you find it necessary that when you've been shown to be wrong, you go all 'tangential' on people ... ?

Besides, it's not like there's not a good number of books in print that address your tangent, which is a discussion for another thread (life time permitting, of course!)

2PhiloVoid said:

You've met Jesus and His disciples in person?! You lucky dog!

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I don't think Jesus ever existed. I'm just assuming he did and assuming he was quoted correctly. Otherwise, our discussion about what he said is moot.

2PhiloVoid said:

Now, can we get back to acknowledging that what I've said about Matthew 18 is correct? Or do you find it necessary that when you've been shown to be wrong, you go all 'tangential' on people ... ?

Besides, it's not like there's not a good number of books in print that address your tangent, which is a discussion for another thread (life time permitting, of course!)

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I will acknowledge that what you said about the context of Matt 18 is correct, and you need to acknowledge that Jesus often made 'ask me anything and I'll do it' promises that are false. So even if you score a win on Matthew 18, there are scores of other passages where OP's point still stands.

For example, in the context of healing demon possessed boy, Jesus said:

Matthew 17:19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”

20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

In the context of nothing being impossible, OPs point stands.

BigV said:

I don't think Jesus ever existed. I'm just assuming he did and assuming he was quoted correctly. Otherwise, our discussion about what he said is moot.



I will acknowledge that what you said about the context of Matt 18 is correct, and you need to acknowledge that Jesus often made 'ask me anything and I'll do it' promises that are false. So even if you score a win on Matthew 18, there are scores of other passages where OP's point still stands.

For example, in the context of healing demon possessed boy, Jesus said:

Matthew 17:19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”

20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

In the context of nothing being impossible, OPs point stands.

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Are you sure you want Matthew 17:19-20 to be true, even applicable for believers in Christ like myself? Setting aside the fact that I've already said what I said above in post #65 to Cloudy, I'm thinking that you don't know what you're asking since you're not very handy with detecting various nuances of context.

Have you ever seen that famous Twilight Zone episode where the boy 'wished people to the corn field'? Is that kind of thing that you're wanting to be true? If I were an unbeliever, I'd really, really, really hope it wasn't true, considering the semantics and context of Matthew 17:19-20.

2PhiloVoid said:

Are you sure you want Matthew 17:19-20 to be true, even applicable for believers in Christ like myself?

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Thanks for admitting that at least parts of Matthew 17 are not true.

Sounds like you are not getting my point about context. Jesus didn't care for it when it came to the Old Testament, neither did the other NT Authors.

I think it's clear that you have a faulty text, that is obviously false. And your Bible exposition is nothing more than a game of finding the narrow context where a given text could possibly fit in and be true.

BigV said:

Thanks for admitting that at least parts of Matthew 17 are not true.

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What? I didn't admit to that. How is it that you're interpreting that I have?

Sounds like you are not getting my point about context. Jesus didn't care for it when it came to the Old Testament, neither did the other NT Authors.

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No, all we 'know' from the written structure of the Gospels is that the writer of Matthew CHOSE, for some reason [probably reasons due to Jewish epistemic and hermeneutical ideas], to interpret Old Testament passages within certain Jewishly minded patterns of understanding.

I think it's clear that you have a faulty text, that is obviously false. And your Bible exposition is nothing more than a game of finding the narrow context where a given text could possibly fit in and be true.

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Really? And you've read every scholarly book on this subject that I have? Please, do tell, do tell.

No, I'm starting to think, BigV, that you're not here so much to challenge us Christians, but to try to destroy the faith. Would I be far off the mark in this regard? I so hope that I'm wrong. Please tell me I'm wrong about that, and that you're just an innocent guy, who's had a hard life, and is seeking assistance to find faith, if possible, while we all still have breath in our lungs.

2PhiloVoid said:

What? I didn't admit to that. How is it that you're interpreting that I have?

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You've asked me if I wanted Matthew 17:19-20 to be true for believers like yourself. That means you don't believe this is true for you. The passage that says that nothing will be impossible for those with small faith is false, according to your take on this passage!

Remember, Jesus said

Matthew 28: 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Jesus commanded his disciples that even a small faith can move mountains, and that nothing will be impossible for them. This command is clearly false as you admit by asking if I wanted that passage to be true.

2PhiloVoid said:

No, all we 'know' from the written structure of the Gospels is that the writer of Matthew CHOSE, for some reason [probably reasons due to Jewish epistemic and hermeneutical ideas], to interpret Old Testament passages within certain Jewishly minded patterns of understanding.

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And what is your scholarly reference for this conclusion? Perhaps Matthew was just playing a game by looking for texts to match his story?

And what about Jesus using an example of David doing an unlawful thing to justify his own breaking of the Sabbath? Or is it your claim that Jesus never said this and Matthew just made the account up based on his "reasons based on Jewishly minded patters of understanding"?

2PhiloVoid said:

Really? And you've read every scholarly book on this subject that I have? Please, do tell, do tell.

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Why are you so obsessed with scholarly books? I thought the Protestants were big on SOLA Scriptura?

Matthew

Notice this Christian scholar (Dr Constable) on making excuses for Jesus:

Verse 22 assumes what Jesus taught elsewhere about prayer, namely, that God will grant the petitions of His people when they are in harmony with His will (6:9-13; 7:7-11; cf. John 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23-24; 1 John 5:14-15). His point was that when we pray, we should believe that God can do anything we request, and that He will do what is consistent with His will and what He has promised to do.[1388]

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He said that when Christian pray, they should believe God CAN do anything requested, but will do only what is consistent with his will and what he promised to do.

The problem that this good Dr seems to miss is that Jesus' promise to do whatever the believer asks IS what Jesus has promised to do, and yet is failing to do.

Matthew 21:21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

So, Jesus made a promise that is clearly false. Notice also, that the Dr. Constable doesn't make a distinction (as some here tried to do) between a promise for the disciples and a promise for today's Christians. He says "when WE pray...".

I think this is a checkmate.

BigV said:

Matthew

Notice this Christian scholar (Dr Constable) on making excuses for Jesus:



He said that when Christian pray, they should believe God CAN do anything requested, but will do only what is consistent with his will and what he promised to do.

The problem that this good Dr seems to miss is that Jesus' promise to do whatever the believer asks IS what Jesus has promised to do, and yet is failing to do.

Matthew 21:21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

So, Jesus made a promise that is clearly false. Notice also, that the Dr. Constable doesn't make a distinction (as some here tried to do) between a promise for the disciples and a promise for today's Christians. He says "when WE pray...".

I think this is a checkmate.

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Checkmate? Just like that, with a snap of your fingers? .....ok. If you say so, it must be true.

BigV said:

Matthew

Notice this Christian scholar (Dr Constable) on making excuses for Jesus:



He said that when Christian pray, they should believe God CAN do anything requested, but will do only what is consistent with his will and what he promised to do.

The problem that this good Dr seems to miss is that Jesus' promise to do whatever the believer asks IS what Jesus has promised to do, and yet is failing to do.

Matthew 21:21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

So, Jesus made a promise that is clearly false. Notice also, that the Dr. Constable doesn't make a distinction (as some here tried to do) between a promise for the disciples and a promise for today's Christians. He says "when WE pray...".

I think this is a checkmate.

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I personally don't find this passage problematic because Jesus was talking specifically to the disciples. Not everything everyone says in Scripture always applies to everyone reading.

Mat 21:18-22 Now in the morning, when He was returning to the city, He became hungry. Seeing a lone fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only; and He *said to it, "No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you." And at once the fig tree withered. Seeing this, the disciples were amazed and asked, "How did the fig tree wither all at once?" And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

Clizby WampusCat said:

When do you know? Is everything that Jesus said only to the disciples not for us?

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I don't find it that difficult to discern. This is very hard to comprehend as an atheist, but the reality is that I have a personal, real, and intimate relationship with God. I have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of me, and as I spend time daily reading Scripture, praying, and engaging with the Spirit, He does, in some mystical fashion guide me, convict me, teach me, and continually point me towards Christ.

I don't know your story of walking away from Christianity, but the vast vast majority of people I encounter that have walked away, if they're honest, usually start with them acknowledging that they didn't regularly read and meditate on Scripture, weren't actively involved in a local Church, and really just let their relationship suffer. Relationships work two ways.