God's Decree

Hammster · Mar 30, 2020

BobRyan said:
Good question.

It shows that the lost person would need to "choose" to open the door.

“Choice” is not exclusive from God’s decree.

“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know⁠— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:22-23

It was God’s plan that men would choose to crucify Christ, for example.

BobRyan · Mar 30, 2020

Hammster said:
“Choice” is not exclusive from God’s decree.

“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know⁠— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:22-23

It was God’s plan that men would choose to crucify Christ, for example.

God did not "decree evil" - He allowed it. Because His sovereign decree was that free will exist. God "decreed" that God the Son should be incarnate and die in our place for the sins of the world. He did not decree "that his own should reject their own Messiah" -- He foreknew it... He allowed it.

The result is "He came to His own and His own received Him not" John 1:11.

So I agree that God knows all -- but God does not "decree rebellion". God does not cause or force or decree that people "take His name in vain" for example.

Hammster · Mar 30, 2020

BobRyan said:
God did not "decree evil" - He allowed it. Because His sovereign decree was that free will exist.

The result is "He came to His own and His own received Him not" John 1:11.

So I agree that God knows all -- but God does not "decree rebellion". God does not cause or force or decree that people "take His name in vain" for example.

Your assumption is that decree means to force someone do something. I think the verses in Acts that I posted show that God can get evil men to do evil things without forcing them to do so.

renniks · Mar 30, 2020

Hammster said:
He could have prevented the rebellion in the Garden.

Who are you to tell God what he could do? The issue is: what did God desire? He walked with our first parents in the garden. I believe he desires fellowship.

renniks · Mar 30, 2020

Hammster said:
First off, God is sovereign. He does whatever He pleases. Second, He could have not created Satan. He could have not allowed him into the garden. He could not have made a law. He could have guarded the tree.

Etc

Only in your mind. I find it ironic that you think God has infinite free choices and men have none, when we are made in his image. Yes, he does what he pleases, that alone limits his choices. He says he hated lying, so can he lie? Can he say one thing and do another? Nope that's Satan's territory. Neither can he be Holy and decree evil.

renniks · Mar 30, 2020

Hammster said:
Is sin inevitable in heaven?

No, but this is the test, not the reward. In the test there's always multiple choices.

Hammster · Mar 30, 2020

renniks said:
Who are you to tell God what he could do? The issue is: what did God desire? He walked with our first parents in the garden. I believe he desires fellowship.

I’m not telling Him what He can do. I’m telling you what He could do.

Hammster · Mar 30, 2020

renniks said:
Only in your mind. I find it ironic that you think God has infinite free choices and men have none, when we are made in his image. Yes, he does what he pleases, that alone limits his choices. He says he hated lying, so can he lie? Can he say one thing and do another? Nope that's Satan's territory. Neither can he be Holy and decree evil.

It doesn’t please God to lie, so your point is moot.

And yes, He does decree evil. He decreed the most evil act in history.

Hammster · Mar 30, 2020

renniks said:
No, but this is the test, not the reward. In the test there's always multiple choices.

Then is it safe to say that we have no free will in heaven? Why or why not?

ICONO'CLAST · Mar 30, 2020

renniks said:
I think you missed the point. God's not decreeing evil. Your argument only stands in a world where God predetermined all evil, not just knew it would occur. God says some things people did never entered his mind.

Here the poster demonstrates He does not understand biblical omniscience.

BobRyan · Mar 30, 2020

Hammster said:
I think the verses in Acts that I posted show that God can get evil men to do evil things without forcing them to do so.

I don't think that text in Acts means that God was ever trying to "get" anyone to do evil.

James 1
"13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone."

God does not "need evil".
He does not "need" anyone to take His name in vain.

james 1 says that not only does God not force anyone to do evil - he does not tempt/entice them to do evil.

Hammster · Mar 30, 2020

BobRyan said:
I don't think that text in Acts means that God was ever trying to "get" anyone to do evil.

James 1
"13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone."

God does not "need evil".
He does not "need" anyone to take His name in vain.

james 1 says that not only does God not force anyone to do evil - he does not tempt/entice them to do evil.

I never said He did. And you keep ignoring the verse from Acts.

“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know⁠— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:22-23

Here’s more

In the day of prosperity be happy,
But in the day of adversity consider⁠—
God has made the one as well as the other
So that man will not discover anything that will be after him.
— Ecclesiastes 7:14

The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord;
He turns it wherever He wishes.
— Proverbs 21:1

BBAS 64 · Mar 30, 2020

BobRyan said:
I don't think that text in Acts means that God was ever trying to "get" anyone to do evil.

James 1
"13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone."

God does not "need evil".
He does not "need" anyone to take His name in vain.

james 1 says that not only does God not force anyone to do evil - he does not tempt/entice them to do evil.

Good Day, Bob

Sorry to but in here.. You have stated what you do not believe a couple of times.

Can you deal the text that has been posted:?

“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know⁠— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

— Acts 2:22-23

In Him,

Bill

BobRyan · Mar 30, 2020

Hammster said:
I think the verses in Acts that I posted show that God can get evil men to do evil things without forcing them to do so.

I don't think that text in Acts means that God was ever trying to "get" anyone to do evil.

James 1
"13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone."

God does not "need evil".
He does not "need" anyone to take His name in vain.

james 1 says that not only does God not force anyone to do evil - he does not tempt/entice them to do evil.

Hammster said:
I never said He did.

you said "God can get evil men to do evil things".
I simply point out that not only does God not do any evil He also does not tempt / entice them to evil according to James 1

Hammster said:
And you keep ignoring the verse from Acts.

“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know⁠— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:22-23

1. I already pointed out that I believe God foreknows what will happen.
2. The plan of God in this case was to have Christ as the "lamb of God" who dies for the sins of the world. That means that even if the Jews and Romans "Chose" perfect obedience Christ would still die for the sins of the world - as per "the plan".

But the penalty of sin is not that we will all be tormented by Roman soldiers .. that is "not" the debt that we owe.. Our debt of sin is the second death of Rev 20. It is the second death "debt" that Christ pays for us... we all die "the first death" ourselves.

the wickedness of the Romans and Jews - only "increased that debt" that Jesus then paid for.

God says Isaiah 5:4
“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

God says in James 1 He does not force, He does not even tempt.

God says in Matthew 23 "37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

God says in John 1 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

God says "He is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2 Peter 3

BobRyan · Mar 30, 2020

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Bob

Sorry to but in here.. You have stated what you do not believe a couple of times.

Hi Bill.

Do not apologize , this is an open forum and discussion all are welcome to join in.

I try to never "post what I do not believe" in the affirmative - I try to clarify what I am saying and I try to clarify what I understand the other person to be saying.

Clearly James 1 states that God does not force.. and in fact does not even entice someone to do evil.

BBAS 64 said:
Can you deal the text that has been posted:?

“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know⁠— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

— Acts 2:22-23

In Him, Bill

It "appears" to me that you are saying that if all these texts I have given are true -- then how can Acts 2:22-23 be true.

“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know⁠— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:22-23

1. I already pointed out that I believe God foreknows what will happen.
2. The plan of God in this case was to have Christ as the "lamb of God" who dies for the sins of the world. That means that even if the Jews and Romans "Chose" perfect obedience Christ would still die for the sins of the world - as per "the plan".

But the penalty of sin is not that we will all be tormented by Roman soldiers .. that is "not" the debt that we owe.. Our debt of sin is the second death of Rev 20. It is the second death "debt" that Christ pays for us... we all die "the first death" ourselves.

the wickedness of the Romans and Jews - only "increased that debt" that Jesus then paid for.

God says Isaiah 5:4
“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

God says in James 1 He does not force, He does not even tempt.

God says in Matthew 23 "37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

God says in John 1 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

God says "He is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2 Peter 3

Hammster · Mar 30, 2020

BobRyan said:
I don't think that text in Acts means that God was ever trying to "get" anyone to do evil.

James 1
"13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone."

God does not "need evil".
He does not "need" anyone to take His name in vain.

james 1 says that not only does God not force anyone to do evil - he does not tempt/entice them to do evil.

you said "God can get evil men to do evil things".
I simply point out that not only does God not do any evil He also does not tempt / entice them to evil according to James 1

1. I already pointed out that I believe God foreknows what will happen.
2. The plan of God in this case was to have Christ as the "lamb of God" who dies for the sins of the world. That means that even if the Jews and Romans "Chose" perfect obedience Christ would still die for the sins of the world - as per "the plan".

But the penalty of sin is not that we will all be tormented by Roman soldiers .. that is "not" the debt that we owe.. Our debt of sin is the second death of Rev 20. It is the second death "debt" that Christ pays for us... we all die "the first death" ourselves.

the wickedness of the Romans and Jews - only "increased that debt" that Jesus then paid for.

God says Isaiah 5:4
“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

God says in James 1 He does not force, He does not even tempt.

God says in Matthew 23 "37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

God says in John 1 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

God says "He is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2 Peter 3

You keep making the claim that I’m stating that God tempts men to do evil. I’ve never said nor implied such a thing. I’m simply stating what scripture says. It was His plan that evil men do something evil.

I’ve stated what scripture says here:

The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord;
He turns it wherever He wishes.
— Proverbs 21:1
Nothing about tempting men to do evil, but God gets a king to do what He wants done.

The sovereignty of God has no limitations.

renniks · Mar 30, 2020

ICONO'CLAST said:
Here the poster demonstrates He does not understand biblical omniscience.

I'm flattered that you can't get enough of me, but have to reply to my posts on this forum too!

renniks · Mar 30, 2020

Hammster said:
You keep making the claim that I’m stating that God tempts men to do evil. I’ve never said nor implied such a thing. I’m simply stating what scripture says. It was His plan that evil men do something evil.

I’ve stated what scripture says here:

The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord;
He turns it wherever He wishes.
— Proverbs 21:1
Nothing about tempting men to do evil, but God gets a king to do what He wants done.

The sovereignty of God has no limitations.

It’s never a good idea to use a psalm or a proverb as a filter to read the rest of the Bible through, because poetic text might obviously not always be the literal truth.

The above verse is sometimes used as an attempt to support the idea that God has an exhaustive control over all decisions of men – i.e. God predestines every step that a man makes and nothing happens against the will of God.
You all believe that God is no longer sovereign if man has any independent control separate from his own will. Sovereign and sovereignty are not Biblical words (KJV), but also freewillers believe God is ”sovereign”, but obviously not the way calvinists understand this term. A sovereign and an all powerful God is mighty enough to create man with a free will and to be responsible for his (not God’s) own actions. If God is the one who causes us to think and act the way he wants, then of course he is the one to be responsible for our thoughts and actions, but that is not the God of the Bible because it would make him the author of sin.
Gen. 5:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

It wouldn’t make any sense at all if God first caused people to have wicked thoughts and constantly perform evil, and then bring a global flood on everyone due to their wickedness that he himself predestined.

Proverbs21:1 doesn’t speak about all the people in the whole world but about ”the king”, and this verse might have been written by King Solomon concerning himself. The passage also doesn’t tell us that God controls the king’s heart irresistibly. It’s possible that Solomon is proclaiming that he is fulfilling his appointed role by allowing God to control his decision-making so that his decisions would essentially be the decisions of God, and it is not a statement that God is irresistibly controlling his heart but that the king has fully surrendered his heart and will to the will of God.

Hammster · Mar 30, 2020

renniks said:
It’s never a good idea to use a psalm or a proverb as a filter to read the rest of the Bible through, because poetic text might obviously not always be the literal truth.

The above verse is sometimes used as an attempt to support the idea that God has an exhaustive control over all decisions of men – i.e. God predestines every step that a man makes and nothing happens against the will of God.
You all believe that God is no longer sovereign if man has any independent control separate from his own will. Sovereign and sovereignty are not Biblical words (KJV), but also freewillers believe God is ”sovereign”, but obviously not the way calvinists understand this term. A sovereign and an all powerful God is mighty enough to create man with a free will and to be responsible for his (not God’s) own actions. If God is the one who causes us to think and act the way he wants, then of course he is the one to be responsible for our thoughts and actions, but that is not the God of the Bible because it would make him the author of sin.
Gen. 5:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

It wouldn’t make any sense at all if God first caused people to have wicked thoughts and constantly perform evil, and then bring a global flood on everyone due to their wickedness that he himself predestined.

Proverbs21:1 doesn’t speak about all the people in the whole world but about ”the king”, and this verse might have been written by King Solomon concerning himself. The passage also doesn’t tell us that God controls the king’s heart irresistibly. It’s possible that Solomon is proclaiming that he is fulfilling his appointed role by allowing God to control his decision-making so that his decisions would essentially be the decisions of God, and it is not a statement that God is irresistibly controlling his heart but that the king has fully surrendered his heart and will to the will of God.

Your argument might be a good one if I based mine on that one verse. I haven’t.

And they observed the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with joy, for the Lord had caused them to rejoice, and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria toward them to encourage them in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.
— Ezra 6:22

In the day of prosperity be happy,
But in the day of adversity consider⁠—
God has made the one as well as the other
So that man will not discover anything that will be after him.
— Ecclesiastes 7:14

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:23

For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
— Acts 4:27-28

renniks · Mar 30, 2020

Hammster said:
Your argument might be a good one if I based mine on that one verse. I haven’t.

And they observed the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with joy, for the Lord had caused them to rejoice, and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria toward them to encourage them in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.
— Ezra 6:22

In the day of prosperity be happy,
But in the day of adversity consider⁠—
God has made the one as well as the other
So that man will not discover anything that will be after him.
— Ecclesiastes 7:14

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:23

For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
— Acts 4:27-28

None of those say God destined everything that happens. Does God turn peoples hearts to lie and cheat when he said he hates lying? Anyone can pick out individual verses where God does something and pretend they are universal. Again, God put himself in the right place to be a sacrifice for us. That was his plan because of man's sin, it doesn't make God the one who decrees the sin. Just as in the garden, God didn't have to decree the fall for it to occur.

God's Decree

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