Why did God make it so that the sins of one could negatively impact another?

Dave L · Mar 30, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
God can test people, but He tempts no one, nor does He lead us into temptation. This is made explicit in James 1:13 and is consistent with all of Scripture which describes God as good, holy and righteous; in whom there is no darkness.

The petition "lead us not into temptation" is connected to "deliver us from evil", and we pray here that God, in His great love and mercy, may guard us against the devil, every evil thing in the world, and our own sinful nature, that we may not be deceived or mislead into false belief and despair. In short, we pray that God may keep us firm in His Word.

Did he lead Adam into temptation? How about Jesus?

Daniel9v9 · Mar 30, 2020

Dave L said:
Did he lead Adam into temptation? How about Jesus?

God did not lead anyone into temptation - neither Adam or Jesus, or anyone - for God cannot be tempted with evil, and He himself tempts no one.

Dave L · Mar 30, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
God did not lead anyone into temptation - neither Adam or Jesus, or anyone - for God cannot be tempted with evil, and He himself tempts no one.

“Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.” Matthew 4:1 (KJV 1900)

Daniel9v9 · Mar 30, 2020

Dave L said:
“Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.” Matthew 4:1 (KJV 1900)

Here Jesus Christ, who is fully man and fully God, is tested by God, tempted by satan. The point of this temptation is exactly to show how God cannot be tempted, even in His own humility, in order that we should know and believe that He is the Son of God.

We shouldn't confuse (1) God's testing of Christ, which has to do with His work of salvation, and (2) God's testing of our faith (such as in Job, for example), which has to do with the apprehension of salvation through faith, with (3) a temptation to sin, for, as already said, God does test, but He tempts no one. It's important to distinguish between these things.

To clarify, God does not tempt or lead anyone to do evil, but He does hand us over to evil to test or to punish us. These things He does for good.

Dave L · Mar 30, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
Here Jesus Christ, who is fully man and fully God, is tested by God, tempted by satan. The point of this temptation is exactly to show how God cannot be tempted, even in His own humility, in order that we should know and believe that He is the Son of God.

We shouldn't confuse (1) God's testing of Christ, which has to do with His work of salvation, and (2) God's testing of our faith (such as in Job, for example), which has to do with the apprehension of salvation through faith, with (3) a temptation to sin, for, as already said, God does test, but He tempts no one. It's important to distinguish between these things.

To clarify, God does not tempt or lead anyone to do evil, but He does hand us over to evil to test or to punish us. These things He does for good.

“For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” Hebrews 4:15 (KJV 1900)

Daniel9v9 · Mar 30, 2020

Dave L said:
“For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” Hebrews 4:15 (KJV 1900)

Yes, exactly. God cannot be tempted.

Dave L · Mar 30, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
Yes, exactly. God cannot be tempted.

Why did the Spirit lead him to be tempted by the Devil? What about Job? How did God not set Adam up to be tempted? Why does Jesus tell us to ask God not to lead us into temptation if it is nonsense?

Jeshu · Mar 30, 2020

Leet said:
But I will say, it gives me pause to remember God loves the evil old perverse man every bit as much as he loves the abused little child.
Evil will not go unpunished.

But is that old perverse man completely evil? Or was there once a good person who as he aged was overcome by the wicked and lured into the snare of the wicked, making him an evil old man? Did good in this old man die along the way? Or maybe he was abused when he was a kid and so got the demon of perversion in him in the first place. Not saying that God will not punish the guilty, because i know for sure He does, but there is more to a person than meets the eye, and God knows this best of all.

i trust in a lovingly just God punishing sins and make straight what was crooked and whole what was broken.

martymonster · Mar 30, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
I think we have to make it very clear from the outset that God does not create, bestow, nor impute moral evil upon the world. He does not create conditions for sin, for sin is from us and the devil. He does, however, bear with our sin and forgives us in His great mercy and longsuffering, and we see this no better than in the person and life of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That being said, do you have an example of what you mean? (It doesn't have to be a real example!)

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amo 3:5 Can a bird fall in a snare upon the earth, where no gin is for him? shall one take up a snare from the earth, and have taken nothing at all?
Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

RDKirk · Mar 30, 2020

mcarans said:
I'll ask a question for discussion:

Why did God create a world (or put in place the processes that would create a world) in which the sins of one individual could negatively impact another through no fault of their own?

Because we would then find sin tolerable.

You are asking for a naturally just world, in which evil happens only to the evil and good happens only to the good. But this is not a naturally just world, this is a fallen world.

For a reason that only God currently knows for sure, it is necessary for the perfection of eternity for us to experience a fallen world now, and "fallen" must mean "intolerable."

Daniel9v9 · Mar 30, 2020

Dave L said:
Why did the Spirit lead him to be tempted by the Devil? What about Job? How did God not set Adam up to be tempted? Why does Jesus tell us to ask God not to lead us into temptation if it is nonsense?

Sorry if I didn't explain these things clear enough, but let me try in a simpler and more systematic way:

Let's start with the fact that God is good, holy and righteous. God is not the source of sin. He does not create, bestow or impute moral evil, but He does punish evil, which is perfectly in line with His good, holy and righteous character. That is, to punish evil is in and of itself a good thing.

Then let's consider Jesus Christ, who is the Saviour of the world. God is the one who, from beginning to end, saves us. He unites us to Himself and He does not lead us astray. He is the Good Shepherd.

Now, with these things in mind, we can read specifically what Scriptures say of God's testing and of satan's temptation and our own sinful flesh:

Parable of the Sower - Notice who it is who is leading us away from God's Word: It's satan and our own flesh. Not God. Luke 8

The evil works of the flesh - These things come from our own flesh. Not God. Galatians 5

God is the one who guards us against temptation. 1 Corinthians 10:12-13, Mark 14:38

"Blessed is the man who endures a trial patiently, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life, which God promised to those who love him. Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” because God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire. Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin. And sin, when it is full grown, gives birth to death."
James 1

So, we can understand that God (besides punishing evil, and handing people over to evil as a punishment of their sin) does indeed test, but not tempt. There's an important difference between testing, tempting, and punishing. And again, we shouldn't confuse the temptation of Christ (which serves to prove that though He is fully man He cannot be tempted, which testify to that He is God, and that it fulfils all righteousness in our place), and our own sinful flesh and the devil tempting us, with the act of God testing us, which is for good.

In short, when we pray "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil" we pray that God, in His great mercy, may keep us steadfast in faith. It is not a revelation that God tempts people to sin, and it has never been understood this way in the Church, though it has caused some controversy.

There's much more I can say about this, and I also think it's important to understand that the temptation of Jesus, and of Job, and of Adam are all very unique and serve to reveal different things. Jesus, being the Saviour, God in flesh; Job, being saved by God; Adam, although righteous before God, falling into sin and losing his righteousness before God.

Suffice to say, temptation comes from our own sinful flesh and satan, not from God, and God does not lead us to sin.

martymonster · Mar 30, 2020

mcarans said:
I'll ask a question for discussion:

Why did God create a world (or put in place the processes that would create a world) in which the sins of one individual could negatively impact another through no fault of their own?

Here is the reason he made it that way.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

To know good from evil is apparently a necessary step to become like God, but it comes at a cost.

Daniel9v9 · Mar 30, 2020

martymonster said:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amo 3:5 Can a bird fall in a snare upon the earth, where no gin is for him? shall one take up a snare from the earth, and have taken nothing at all?
Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

I was hoping someone would quote these.

The word that is translated as "evil" here does NOT mean moral evil - sin - but disaster, harm or calamity. The word itself can be translated as either moral evil or natural evil, but it must be understood in its context.

It does not mean that God is the creator or source of evil, but quite on the contrary, that He punishes evil. It's the polar opposite of God being the source of evil! This becomes very apparent when we read the verses in context. The texts are about God punishing evil - about God causing disaster to fall upon the sinner, which is not evil, but good. That is, for God to punish evil, is in and of itself a good and holy thing, for God is supremely righteous.

DamianWarS · Mar 30, 2020

mcarans said:
I'll ask a question for discussion:

Why did God create a world (or put in place the processes that would create a world) in which the sins of one individual could negatively impact another through no fault of their own?

Newton's third law tells us for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. It doesn't care what sin is.

martymonster · Mar 30, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
I was hoping someone would quote these. The word that is translated as "evil" here does NOT mean moral evil - sin - but disaster, harm or calamity. The word itself can be translated as either moral evil or natural evil, but it must be understood in its context.

It does not mean that God is the creator or source of evil, but quite on the contrary, that He punishes evil. It's the polar opposite of God being the source of evil! This becomes very apparent when we read the verses in context. The texts are about God punishing evil - about God causing disaster to fall upon the sinner, which is not evil, but good. That is, for God to punish evil, is in and of itself a good and holy thing, for God is supremely righteous.

You know, it always makes me laugh, when I hear this. The reason being, is that the same people who claim that the word here is "calamity" are usually the same people that claim that God doesn't create calamity, every time there is an earth, tsunami or pandemic.
Not to mention, that God being responsible for evil, does not rest on these verses alone.

Daniel9v9 · Mar 30, 2020

martymonster said:
You know, it always makes me laugh, when I hear this. The reason being, is that the same people who claim that the word here is "calamity" are usually the same people that claim that God doesn't create calamity, every time there is an earth, tsunami or pandemic.
Not to mention, that God being responsible for evil, does not rest on these verses alone.

No, God does indeed cause calamity. We can even see an example of Jesus threatening to throw the woman referred to as Jezebel in Thyatira on a sickbed. However, (1) God does not cause moral evil, but (2) He does punish sinners.

So, the source of evil is not God, but man and satan. God punishes evil, which is good. Nowhere in Scriptures does it say that God creates, bestows or imputes moral evil upon man. Every time the Bible speaks of God causing destruction or calamity, it has to do about God's good and righteous acts of punishing sinners for their evil.

mcarans · Mar 30, 2020

I've added an edit to the OP:
Imagine a hypothetical world in which every action or inaction has a positive or negative consequence, but negative consequences only ever affect the sinning individual never innocent targets or bystanders. This would be a more just world than our current one and if I can imagine it, then I am sure God could too and could make it if He wanted - so why didn't He?

martymonster · Mar 30, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
No, God does indeed cause calamity. We can even see an example of Jesus threatening to throw the woman referred to as Jezebel in Thyatira on a sickbed. However, (1) God does not cause moral evil, but (2) He does punish sinners.

So, the source of evil is not God, but man and satan. God punishes evil, which is good. Nowhere in Scriptures does it say that God creates, bestows or imputes moral evil upon man. Every time the Bible speaks of God causing destruction or calamity, it has to do about God's good and righteous acts of punishing sinners for their evil.

So if God is not the source of evil, then how do you explain this?

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Jdg 9:22 When Abimelech had reigned three years over Israel,
Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

1Sa_16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

1Sa 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand.

1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Wait ...let me guess ....they're calamitous spirits, right?

Maybe you should try listening to what the bible says, rather than trying to make it say what you think it should.

Dave L · Mar 30, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
Sorry if I didn't explain these things clear enough, but let me try in a simpler and more systematic way:

Let's start with the fact that God is good, holy and righteous. God is not the source of sin. He does not create, bestow or impute moral evil, but He does punish evil, which is perfectly in line with His good, holy and righteous character. That is, to punish evil is in and of itself a good thing.

Then let's consider Jesus Christ, who is the Saviour of the world. God is the one who, from beginning to end, saves us. He unites us to Himself and He does not lead us astray. He is the Good Shepherd.

Now, with these things in mind, we can read specifically what Scriptures say of God's testing and of satan's temptation and our own sinful flesh:

Parable of the Sower - Notice who it is who is leading us away from God's Word: It's satan and our own flesh. Not God. Luke 8

The evil works of the flesh - These things come from our own flesh. Not God. Galatians 5

God is the one who guards us against temptation. 1 Corinthians 10:12-13, Mark 14:38

"Blessed is the man who endures a trial patiently, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life, which God promised to those who love him. Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” because God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire. Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin. And sin, when it is full grown, gives birth to death."
James 1

So, we can understand that God (besides punishing evil, and handing people over to evil as a punishment of their sin) does indeed test, but not tempt. There's an important difference between testing, tempting, and punishing. And again, we shouldn't confuse the temptation of Christ (which serves to prove that though He is fully man He cannot be tempted, which testify to that He is God, and that it fulfils all righteousness in our place), and our own sinful flesh and the devil tempting us, with the act of God testing us, which is for good.

In short, when we pray "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil" we pray that God, in His great mercy, may keep us steadfast in faith. It is not a revelation that God tempts people to sin, and it has never been understood this way in the Church, though it has caused some controversy.

There's much more I can say about this, and I also think it's important to understand that the temptation of Jesus, and of Job, and of Adam are all very unique and serve to reveal different things. Jesus, being the Saviour, God in flesh; Job, being saved by God; Adam, although righteous before God, falling into sin and losing his righteousness before God.

Suffice to say, temptation comes from our own sinful flesh and satan, not from God, and God does not lead us to sin.

Scripture clearly shoes God leads people into temptation. I would advise you to pray that he does not lead you into temptation as Jesus tells us to do. If you cannot see this, how can I trust your remarks on anything biblical?

GirdYourLoins · Mar 30, 2020

God gave us free will and if negative actions only affected the person who did them it wouldnt be free will as such as the choice would be harm yourself do good to everyone.

Why did God make it so that the sins of one could negatively impact another?

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