Why did God make it so that the sins of one could negatively impact another?

mcarans · Mar 30, 2020

I'll ask a question for discussion:

Why did God create a world (or put in place the processes that would create a world) in which the sins of one individual could negatively impact another through no fault of their own?

EDIT: Imagine a hypothetical world in which every action or inaction has a positive or negative consequence, but negative consequences only ever affect the sinning individual never innocent targets or bystanders. This would be a more just world than our current one and if I can imagine it, then I am sure God could too and could make it if He wanted - so why didn't He?

EDIT 2: I have written up helpful answers I have received from various forums here:
Answers: why did God make it so that the sins of one could negatively impact another?

Daniel9v9 · Mar 30, 2020

I think we have to make it very clear from the outset that God does not create, bestow, nor impute moral evil upon the world. He does not create conditions for sin, for sin is from us and the devil. He does, however, bear with our sin and forgives us in His great mercy and longsuffering, and we see this no better than in the person and life of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That being said, do you have an example of what you mean? (It doesn't have to be a real example!)

Jeshu · Mar 30, 2020

mcarans said:
I'll ask a question for discussion:

Why did God create a world (or put in place the processes that would create a world) in which the sins of one individual could negatively impact another through no fault of their own?

The issue is that God is the truth, also the truth of our sin He suffers along with everybody else who suffers wrongdoing. So it is the truth of sin you are experiencing. God hates sin and the truth it makes Him out to be for it is an ugly truth and not a good one that is why He holds us accountable what we do down here and for what lives inside our hearts, however hidden this might be from the outside. (Hebrews 4:12-13)

It is The Truth. God brought The Truth into reality when He created and therefore things are as they are.

The good thing is that we sinners who suffer the sin of others can learn to forgive them and love them nevertheless. If we do that then we get the strength and ability from God to survive sin.

That being said God did put things into place to minimise other peoples sin from affecting us too much by putting into place laws to protect us from the evil of the evil doers. Justice means a lot to God that is why all those who do evil against there neighbour will be punished and banished like that from eternity.

Be of good courage.

Sabertooth · Mar 30, 2020

mcarans said:
Why did God make it so that the sins of one could negatively impact another?

God's Truth is ordered & stable (& elegant! :bow:

).

Sin has no foundation, making it unstable & chaotic (in the classical sense of the word).

mcarans · Mar 30, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
I think we have to make it very clear from the outset that God does not create, bestow, nor impute moral evil upon the world. He does not create conditions for sin, for sin is from us and the devil. He does, however, bear with our sin and forgives us in His great mercy and longsuffering, and we see this no better than in the person and life of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That being said, do you have an example of what you mean? (It doesn't have to be a real example!)

For an example, consider something terrible like a childhood filled with abuse - the child has not done anything to deserve the abuse and will have to live with the nightmares for the rest of their life.

Sabertooth · Mar 30, 2020

mcarans said:
the child has not done anything to deserve the abuse and will have to live with the nightmares for the rest of their life.

That child still has the same sin nature as his/her abuser and has consequences & vulnerabilities as a result of their own sin choices. Some consequences are obvious while others are not. The Fallen world is a mess.

mcarans · Mar 30, 2020

Sabertooth said:
That child still has the same sin nature as his/her abuser and has consequences & vulnerabilities as a result of their own sin choices. Some consequences are obvious while others are not. The Fallen world is a mess.

What sin choices would the child have made to warrant a childhood of abuse?

Amittai · Mar 30, 2020

mcarans said:
What sin choices would the child have made to warrant a childhood of abuse?

I think the emphasis in Sabertooth's response is wrong. It comes over as what has sometimes been said in public by authorities that cut corners.

Jesus' teaching and all Bible teaching is eschatological, somehow. Being made in God's image is the call to integrity. Young children haven't wronged their own integrity. If we can see to our own integrity as we mature, we'll be prone to become fitter for the future.

Forgiveness is a five stage thing: and we don't need an emotion and we don't need to relax practical safeguards. It's about letting ourselves off the hook from having to kow tow and become tacitly resentful.

coffee4u · Mar 30, 2020

mcarans said:
I'll ask a question for discussion:

Why did God create a world (or put in place the processes that would create a world) in which the sins of one individual could negatively impact another through no fault of their own?

God wanted a people unto himself, but this had to be a choice because the opposite of choice is no choice/no free will.
Joshua 24:15
15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”

If God had wanted he could have made us robots with no free will at all. Would you want that? Free will means people can choose not to follow, trust or obey. Many people enjoy their sin and have no intention of giving it up.
John 3:19
"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

Once adam had sinned this broke the spiritual connection between him and God and it brought in death. Spiritual and physical death because mankind could no longer live forever and also a fallen world. Mankind would not want to live forever on a cursed and failing world.
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-
Since mankind would now all die and the world was cursed there needed to be a way to save us and the world from this.

God knew this and planned for mankind to be redeemed through Jesus, again a choice.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

God also chooses us because he can see all of time, from start to end so he knew even before creation who would choose and who would reject.
John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

We are told one day there will be a New Heavens and a New Earth and that it will be perfect with God's people.
Revelation 21:1-4
21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

coffee4u · Mar 30, 2020

mcarans said:
What sin choices would the child have made to warrant a childhood of abuse?

God does not want any child to be abused.
Matthew 18:6
"If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
The abuse lays in the hands of the adult not with the child and they will not go unpunished.

Sabertooth · Mar 30, 2020

mcarans said:
What sin choices would the child have made to warrant a childhood of abuse?

(I have been so abused, so this isn't just a theory...)
I didn't say that it was a judgment, but rather a consequence. When a young child tries to stick a fork in an electrical socket, are they particularly guilty of anything? If they succeed, there will certainly be consequences, even if they are not technically "guilty" of anything.

The spiritual realm has many such boundaries that we are oblivious to in our fallen state. And we violate even more of them when we seek to be rebellious on-purpose.

I believe that Man is savvy to those boundaries in his unfallen state. And I believe this to be true as he is being restored (through sanctification). Grace suspends judgment, but not always consequences.

GodsGrace101 · Mar 30, 2020

mcarans said:
I'll ask a question for discussion:

Why did God create a world (or put in place the processes that would create a world) in which the sins of one individual could negatively impact another through no fault of their own?

We live in a community.

Even if one lived in an isolated place in nature...
he would affect that nature.

Sabertooth · Mar 30, 2020

Amittai said:
I think the emphasis in Sabertooth's response is wrong.

The pivotal doctrine, here, is Original Sin. The answer to the OP's question hinges on which side one takes.

Daniel9v9 · Mar 30, 2020

mcarans said:
For an example, consider something terrible like a childhood filled with abuse - the child has not done anything to deserve the abuse and will have to live with the nightmares for the rest of their life.

First of all, that's a terrible evil, but we should understand that no one hates this more than God. God is supremely good and righteous and He hates and punishes all evil.

Secondly, the world we live in is broken and it's our fault. We are all sinners and all guilty in the eyes of the Lord. In other words, we are not sinners because we sin, but rather, we sin because we are sinners. And sin, at its core, is rebellion, rejection and hatred of God; His nature, will and design. This design, or creation, extends to man, who is made in His image. Or to put it in a different perspective, God's Law can be summed up as love for God and love for neighbour; sin is the opposite - hatred for God and hatred for our neighbour.

So, the consequence of our sin is both temporal and eternal punishment, yet all sins are overcome in Christ. That is, Jesus takes away the sin of the world, so that even if we have to suffer terrible evil in our life, which is our just punishment, we will be raised in glory and be comforted for an eternity.

God works all things for good. He is not the problem, but the solution. We are evil and evil falls on us, but thanks be to God that through Christ, we are free from judgment. So, just as God is longsuffering and patient with us in our evil, so also, we should be patient and longsuffering while living in this sinful world.

Amittai · Mar 30, 2020

We need to be on both sides at the same time. But we started out on the receiving end and the innocent are on the receiving end that's all I meant.

Aussie Pete · Mar 30, 2020

mcarans said:
I'll ask a question for discussion:

Why did God create a world (or put in place the processes that would create a world) in which the sins of one individual could negatively impact another through no fault of their own?

God gave control of the earth to Adam. Adam handed his control to Satan. Adam disobeyed God in the process and so died spiritually. Every negative consequence can be traced back to that one act of disobedience. Romans 5 gives an explanation an also God's solution.

If you create a being without free will then you have a robot. If the being with free will has no choices, then free will is pointless. Adam had just one restriction placed on him. He blew it. All the suffering of humanity is the result. Satan is the source of all injustice, all unrighteousness, all evil and all that ails the human race. Christians are tasked with enforcing the victory that Lord Jesus won over Satan. When the church has completed that task, Satan will be finished and the church will be triumphant. That is why Satan does his very best to hinder Christians in their walk with Christ. If we quit worrying about ourselves and made God's Kingdom our priority, Satan would be finished off in no time.

Dave L · Mar 30, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
I think we have to make it very clear from the outset that God does not create, bestow, nor impute moral evil upon the world. He does not create conditions for sin, for sin is from us and the devil. He does, however, bear with our sin and forgives us in His great mercy and longsuffering, and we see this no better than in the person and life of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That being said, do you have an example of what you mean? (It doesn't have to be a real example!)

Why pray "lead us not into temptation"?

Leet · Mar 30, 2020

Some things have no answers.
But I will say, it gives me pause to remember God loves the evil old perverse man every bit as much as he loves the abused little child.
Evil will not go unpunished.

Daniel9v9 · Mar 30, 2020

Dave L said:
Why pray "lead us not into temptation"?

God can test people, but He tempts no one, nor does He lead us into temptation. This is made explicit in James 1:13 and is consistent with all of Scripture which describes God as good, holy and righteous; in whom there is no darkness.

The petition "lead us not into temptation" is connected to "deliver us from evil", and we pray here that God, in His great love and mercy, may guard us against the devil, every evil thing in the world, and our own sinful nature, that we may not be deceived or mislead into false belief and despair. In short, we pray that God may keep us firm in His Word.

Amittai · Mar 30, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
... Christians are tasked with enforcing the victory that Lord Jesus won over Satan. When the church has completed that task, Satan will be finished and the church will be triumphant. ... If we quit worrying about ourselves and made God's Kingdom our priority, Satan would be finished off in no time.

- enforcing in our own lives
- making it priority in our own lives Mt 24:45-51 and Lk 12:30-59, including our interceding for the world based on our conviction of His desire for it
- we have to endure for the time God gives us, which may be shorter or longer than convenient

Why did God make it so that the sins of one could negatively impact another?

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