God's Decree

Jonaitis · Mar 29, 2020

renniks said:
That's a non answer. What I mean by stand alone is that it doesn't depend on anything or anyone else.

Well, I would want us to both understand each other if we want to converse together. You use 'foreknowledge' in a different way than I do.

Jonaitis · Mar 29, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
No, I do not, not at all, it's just a bunch or pretty words that are a clear contradiction of how God can be both all-knowing and not all-knowing at the same time, and is a way of deception if you ask me...

And the way I explain it is too heretical for this forum, and also alot of christians, so...? Been told it goes against traditional teachings and some have even accused me of blasphemy because of it, so I'm not going into it here, OK...?

And I don't feel like getting kicked off of here today, K...

God Bless!

I don't understand where the deception lies...

If God decreed all things whatsoever comes to pass, then we can find comfort that God has control over the affairs of our lives and the world around us. It gives assurance to our fears, doubts and struggles in every trial, temptation and tribulation we may face. God has decreed this for my good, and nothing can thwart his purpose in it for me.

Here's my question for you, if you are able to answer it in this forum: If creation, with all that is in it, was intelligently designed with a task, a function and a purpose by the will of God, why cannot history be intelligently designed as well with a task, a function and a purpose for the glory of God?

Jonaitis · Mar 29, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
Do you see all of this as "evil" if the greatest and most highest and best good comes out of it in the end, and it was maybe the only way to bring it about, etc, is it still evil?

Because to still think so, is to call the one who made it, and made it all, including us, and yes, including the way it all would happen and/or go, "evil", etc...

You really want to do that or say that...?

God Bless!

You make an interesting point. It makes me wonder if Renniks' answer is no less "evil" than mine? I'll explain...

If God foresaw what was to occur, why did he allow sin to enter the world? He argues that God is responsible for sin if he decreed all things, but if "God decided what he would do based on his knowledge," as he said in post #16, he was responsible for preventing in some way the fall, and the consequences that followed afterward.

I'll take it further @renniks! If God decided what he would do based on his knowledge of the future, or knowledge itself (being all-knowing of all things), why did he allow Adam and Eve to sin from the very beginning? Why did he plant a tree in the garden, and threaten divine judgment upon eating it, at all? In this framework, God had intentions of sorts that resulted in evil. If he knew the outcome ahead, then why did he proceed in planting that tree? He had intentions of their sinning, that's your only answer. He planted that tree with a motive that gave the possibility of a fall, and allowed the consequences to be so severe that generation to come would becomes worse sinners than their first parents, committing worse crimes against humanity!

If you follow your own framework, this makes God responsible too!

Jonaitis · Mar 29, 2020

bcbsr said:
The statement is inherently contradictory and therefore false. Typically what such statements really mean by "the will of the creature" is that which has been programmed by God, all things being deterministic, essentially puppets of God so that nothing is independent of God's determinism, which logically makes God the author of sin in puppet-like fashion. But sin God is holy, therefore the premise is self-contradictory.

I would say it is a paradox, but certainly not false.

I ask, provide Scripture to support your argument.

Jonaitis · Mar 29, 2020

Peter J Barban said:
It seems that there are already verses given to support this chapter. Why reinvent the wheel?

I don't see removing the chapter's references as reinventing the wheel? However, my motive in removing them was so that if the statement stood alone, could someone support/refute it with their own references.

Jonaitis · Mar 29, 2020

GingerBeer said:
No, I do not agree and I think it is bordering on absurd to ask for scripture to disprove an absurd theory about predestination simply because a Baptist confession contains it.

I am asking members, who have read and studied the Scriptures, if this statement is biblical, while supporting their answer with Scripture. Now, if that's "bordering on absurd," then you would find that this forum is not for you. There was absolutely no point of your comment here.

Jonaitis · Mar 29, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
Agree. God is entirely sovereign and man is entirely responsible. No, I don't know how to reconcile the two.
Job 42:2
1Then Job replied to the LORD: 2“I know that You can do all things and that no plan of Yours can be thwarted.

John 1:13 ....children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.

Great verses!

Jonaitis · Mar 29, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
All through history there have been such men. The Apostles, Luther, the Wesley brothers, Watchman Nee and many others. Some are hidden gems so to speak.

Ah!

I don't think many realize the impact certain events, movements and/or individuals has had in our world (and our faith most of all)! I always like to use Alexander the Great as an example on this subject. He was so deeply in love with Greek culture (and mythology), that as he conquered the East, as far as Persia, he brought the culture with him ('Hellenization') to these nations. The Greek language became a franca lingua of the ancient, civilized world. That legacy was carried over into Rome, and it was the language that the New Testament was written (although, a more common, lower form). Greek is far more precise than Semitic languages, and enabled believers in the early church to carry the gospel to much of the known world (to them).

He is an example of someone, who had no idea what he was doing, that had an impact on the Church, all carried out by divine decree. He was a chosen vessel for a purpose beyond himself.

Augustus Caesar had no idea that in uniting the nations under his authority, he was ultimately serving the Church. He was used, without being aware of it, for a greater purpose that God had predetermined long before Rome was ever founded as a "city of clay."

Jonaitis · Mar 29, 2020

zoidar said:
*deleted*

Well, that's too bad.

Jonaitis · Mar 29, 2020

HatGuy said:
I think this can be fairly easily resolved by simply noting that certain things could be decided by God beforehand and certain things not. It doesn't have to be either / or.

The verse in question does not imply that ALL things are predetermined. It simply notes that God planned a certain event 'from the days of old'.

In the text above, you have said that 'all things are governed by his divine providence', but that's not the same as saying all things are predetermined.

If he ordained some things, but not all things, then all things were ordained. I wonder if you have thought about that, yet.

Now, if you want to answer the verse I posed to another member, you are free to do so. However, your answer doesn't really address the verse. It does imply all things are predetermined (see first paragraph). Also, "days of old" is a literary device. There isn't any other way to read that, in context. God is immutable, he doesn't determine something on a whim.

May I ask to quote where I said that "all things are governed by his divine providence," so that I would understand the context? It would help, because I have not equated it with predetermination, but have used it as a consequence of the aforementioned. Thank you.

Jonaitis · Mar 29, 2020

BobRyan said:
God sovereignly decreed free will (no one forced Him to choose to do that)-- and that put the level of indirection needed to disconnect God from having blame for any act of evil that would arise. Thus "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11 puts none of the blame on God - who is the first-actor the first motivator the one who took the initiative.

How do we understand 'free will'?

Jonaitis · Mar 29, 2020

ForTheKingdom said:
I don't usually debate these things as they're been debated about for centuries!

I can, however, tell you what encouraged me a couple of days ago when I downloaded the SermonIndex app and saw a message "Who Controls The Coronavirus?". I listened to the whole message, though the scripture he read in the first couple of minutes was enough to encourage me.

For the future, there is

These show, to me, that God is in overall control. All things will come around to the conclusion He has already foreordained. He already made a way for us, even before we were created. Jesus is the

Thanks for sharing!

Jonaitis · Mar 29, 2020

martymonster said:
What you've just stated there, is square circles.

Please explain why?

Jonaitis · Mar 29, 2020

Hammster said:
Agree.

In the day of prosperity be happy,
But in the day of adversity consider⁠—
God has made the one as well as the other
So that man will not discover anything that will be after him.
— Ecclesiastes 7:14

Great verse!

BobRyan · Mar 29, 2020

BobRyan said: ↑
God sovereignly decreed free will (no one forced Him to choose to do that)-- and that put the level of indirection needed to disconnect God from having blame for any act of evil that would arise. Thus "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11 puts none of the blame on God - who is the first-actor the first motivator the one who took the initiative.

Jonaitis said:
How do we understand 'free will'?

1. God sovereignly chose free will as the system that his creation would operate under. So Adam and Eve just like Lucifer - had free will.

2. Mankind became depraved in spirit and inclined toward sin at the fall of Adam. apart from the supernatural work of God - they would remain slaves of sin.

3. God supernaturally "draws all mankind unto Him" John 12:32 which enables the "choice to accept the Gospel" that is disabled by depravity. All are enabled to make that choice - but it is because God sovereignly chooses to supernaturally draw them. Not force them.. draw them.

"I STAND at the door and knock - IF anyone hears My voice AND opens the door... I will come in" Rev 3

The lost sinner is alone without Christ. But Christ is knocking on the door and enabling that sinner to hear and to choose to open the door IF they will.

Hammster · Mar 29, 2020

BobRyan said:
The lost sinner is alone without Christ. But Christ is knocking on the door and enabling that sinner to hear and to choose to open the door IF they will.

That’s quite the abuse of scripture.

“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
— Revelation 3:14-22

Written to the church. Nothing about the lost opening a door.

zoidar · Mar 29, 2020

Jonaitis said:
Well, that's too bad.

1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

zoidar · Mar 29, 2020

bcbsr · Mar 30, 2020

Jonaitis said:
I would say it is a paradox, but certainly not false.

I ask, provide Scripture to support your argument.

Every command in scripture implies free will. That's the point of the imperative. Secondly the fact that God is just, to hold people accountable for things they have no control over is inherently unjust by the very definition of justice. When is a paradox a contradiction? When it cannot be reconciled. And that's the case here.

Hammster · Mar 30, 2020

bcbsr said:
Every command in scripture implies free will. That's the point of the imperative. Secondly the fact that God is just, to hold people accountable for things they have no control over is inherently unjust by the very definition of justice. When is a paradox a contradiction? When it cannot be reconciled. And that's the case here.

Every command may imply free choice. They do not imply free will.

God's Decree

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