Trusting apologists

Amittai · Mar 29, 2020

Nihilist Virus said:
... As always, you're the exception to the rule. If you already don't blindly trust church leaders and apologetics, then there's nothing to debate on this particular thread.

We don't have to trust them, but if we do (half way) it should not be implicit, we build up our reasons, if we are sensible, but we do trust them implicitly if we are foolish like I was for half my life and like the people whose reasoning you cite in OP. Jesus & the apostles intended for there to be a distinction between individual and joint belief on the one hand, and organisation or corporate on the other. It never was supposed to be healthy to place more stress on the latter, until it has become de rigueur in the last 40 years. This is what led astray the prelates Masihi is in denial about. Christian leaders have largely stopped mentoring their flocks to mature. It's about boundaries.

I agree Philovoid hadn't dealt with this very much. Comfy is nearer the mark.

1. I don't think apologists should be addressing their material mostly to outsiders.
2. An evangeliser if you are interested, bears responsibility to discern what he is doing towards you. His church bears responsibility.
3. The whole thing has been in my experience so risky, I was swayed so many times and found 20 or 40 years later the ground opened and swallowed me up. Dr David Pawson estimates most christians aren't given a normal birth so no wonder their version turns out garbled, late in the day.

Godistruth1 · Mar 29, 2020

Al Masihi said:
Yes, Christianity is the one true religion, modern day Judaism has nothing to do with the religion of the Mosaic Covenant, it is a religion of the rabbis which it is precisely why its referred to as Rabbinical Judaism. After the second temple period second temple Judaism was pretty much reconstructed to the modern day faith we now know as Judaism. Liturgical Christianity is more alike to second temple Judaism in terms of theology and practice then Rabbinical Judaism. So define what you mean by Judaism, Christianity is a fulfillment of the Mosaic Covenant, so technically speaking there was no true religion called Judaism before Christianity. The fulfillment of the Mosaic Covenant happened at the moment of the resurrection, when salvation was opened to the many, starting the Christian faith, in which Christ extends the message to the Gentiles during the Great Comission in which he commands the Apostles to preach to all nations. Your assertion that Christ distrusted the leadership of his day in its entirely is not exactly true, Christ respected the teachings of the priesthood and revered them, what he distrusted are the certain people not practicing what they preach as we see here:

“The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.“

Matthew 23:2-3

Christ both revered and respected the legitimate teachings of the Pharisees and those among them that recognized his claims such as Nicodemus a true teacher of the law and believer in Christ. The reason Christ distrusted most of the religious leadership of his day was because they didn’t practice what they preached nor did they believe who he was namely the Messiah and God made manifest in the flesh. Had the majority of them not been hypocrites or disbelievers then we wouldn’t see Christ displaying antagonism towards them in the Gospels at all. Similarly we can trust a Christian apologist when he’s doctirnally correct, sound, and practices what he preaches.

Where’s your source that 100% of the Catholic Church’s hierarchy are pedophiles, chooses to protect pedophiles, or is willing to remain in an institution that does so? By the the way, the third statement requires the first two to actually be true. The real cause of the widespread sexual abuse is the Catholic Church allowing homosexuals to be ordained into the priesthood and carelessly allowing them to be in contact with minors and children. As for the supposed coverups, I’m not a Catholic and I don’t agree with many of their Church’s doctrines, but I don’t see any evidence for a massive cover up conspiracy going on here and there. Bishops not reporting sexual abuse to the police are usually because the families of victims don’t want it reported and prefer to keep things peaceful and low key. And as for the transferring of priests and clergy to new parishes, that’s not evidence of a cover up since it’s usually done with the common belief that people who commit such crimes are just physiologically traumatized people who just need treatment, and because the leadership of the Catholic Church doesn’t like to lose clergy and believes in second chances. It could be argued as incompetence on the part of the Church’s leadership, but not as a widespread cover up.

What does the Holy Spirit have to do with any of this? The Holy Spirit has protected the Church in the face of the most impeccable dangers, from the Pagan Roman Empire, to Mohammadanism, to Communism, and etc, oh and let’s not forget the many heresies that plagued the Church from Arianism, to Nestorianism, to Eutychianism, and we can keep going on and on. The Church has faced all these dangers and won, has kept the same faith handed to it by the Apostles, and is still doctrinally sound. So the Holy Spirit does guide and protect the Church even in its most dire situations.

Christianity is not what jesus preached. It has become paulism as what jesus said and what paul said are totally opposite and you follow paul in everything and oppose Jesus

Loversofjesus_2018 · Mar 29, 2020

com7fy8 said:
It can mean a child of God is not being prayerful and attentive to how God enlightens and guides him or her.

And it can mean someone does not know God.

If I make a mistake of trusting the wrong person, I consider myself accountable for not having been attentive to how God would guide me. And I trust God to correct me so I do better.

Now, you say no one has answered the question in the original post >

First, the Holy Spirit does make God's approved leaders sufficient. So, this is a wrong "if" to use to start a question.

Even if the Holy Spirit does have really trustworthy leaders, this does not automatically mean apologists should be trusted. I would offer how you need to check out each individual. Just like there can be false church leaders, so also there can be false apologists, and there can be ones who have some all right points, but also they can be off. So, you do well to check out everything, by prayer and God's word and in sharing with people who are your good examples of teaching God's word and living God's way.

For you personally > my opinion is you are willing to care and find out what is good. And if I am right, God knows you care and He will honor this. And so it is good to meet you, and thank you for sharing. God bless you, too

Thank you. Wasn’t sure of the response I would get, but you were kind to me. I do care and I will keep trying. Enjoying reading the posts here as long as people are being nice to everyone.

Barney2.0 · Mar 29, 2020

Godistruth1 said:
Christianity is not what jesus preached. It has become paulism as what jesus said and what paul said are totally opposite and you follow paul in everything and oppose Jesus

Not the topic of the thread.

com7fy8 · Mar 29, 2020

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
Wasn’t sure of the response I would get, but you were kind to me.

God wants us to have compassion, not how I have in my past made a project of self-righteously criticizing people < I have needed major correction about this; you do not seem at all conceited like I have been. So, even if you might need to do better about things I have written about, already you are a good example to me, of how to be humble and not conceited and to be kind and sensitive and communicating . . . and giving me a chance. So . . . thank you

And I can use my own failure to help me to feel for others, but also have hope for anyone because of how God has corrected me so I do better >

"He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness." (Hebrews 5:2)

This is a very important thing about Christianity > @Nihilist Virus > in Christianity God our Heavenly Father is personally correcting us who are His children. The Bible is very plain how >

"if you are without chastening, of which all have been made partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons."

This is in Hebrews 12:8.

So, in case a group of people claim to be Christian, but God is not obviously correcting their leaders . . . I can not say this is Christian, going by how Hebrews 12:4-14 guarantees how our Father corrects us who are His children!!

Now, that does not necessarily mean a whole group is wrong. But if individuals keep on disobeying God and His word, and those individuals do not get corrected, we have Hebrews 12:8, about this, I must consider.

Among other things, to me it is clear that a number of individuals do not obey how our Apostle Paul directs us to select leaders > 1 Timothy 3:1-10. There are individuals who take it on themselves to disobey God's standards which we have in 1 Timothy 3:1-10. So, in case ones do this, I can not say they are doing what is Christian, plus if they never are corrected . . . what about what Hebrews 12:8 says?

God has His own best for us, after all. So, I don't agree with calling wrong people representatives of Christianity. And it is not necessarily a whole group who have done evil while claiming to be the church. Individuals do what they choose to do.

And Jesus is clear how we can tell the difference, and this is included in what God's word represents to be Christianity. So, I would not go along with how people point at what is counterfeit, in order to represent and deny the real thing. I see how ones can make up some wrong representation of Christianity, then use that as their evidence to deny Christianity. That is like pointing at counterfeit money as their evidence so they can say, oh there can't be any such thing as real money, because look at how that counterfeit money is.

Now of course, you're no bozo who wouldn't know this; so possibly you are just drawing me out.

Because we know how even unbelievers know it is foolish to use counterfeit money, in order to evaluate if there is real money. If an unbeliever discovers he or she has found a piece of counterfeit money, the person does not stop trusting money . . . for some strange reason

So, if someone claims to not trust God, because of what counterfeits have done . . . I would have to let each one speak for one's own self about why he or she is acting like that.

So . . . to answer your question a little more > if an apologist is making a case for a way claimed to be Christianity but which is not by God's word, I would not trust that apologist.

Nihilist Virus · Mar 29, 2020

com7fy8 said:
Are you basing this on what God's word says, or on how people have failed because of not obeying God's word? God's word is clear about who qualifies just to be considered to be trusted to take care of God's church > 1 Timothy 3:1-10. So, God knows it is realistic to do this, if He says to do this; ones can make sure with God > He is not conceited and distant; He does personally speak to and guide His children who obey how He takes care of them.

There are even Bible claiming people, who would say the same thing, or pretty much, that you have said in the above quote.

They, too, essentially say there is no God who makes us able to tell the difference between one of God's approved pastors and an impostor. But the Bible says there is God our Father who makes His children able to tell the difference. So, in case people deny this, it can be they are denying that there is God . . . though they claim to believe the Bible. So, I am curious if this could mean they in truth are atheists . . . by the way - - if they deny the existence of the One the Bible represents.

And in case you know the Bible, it is possible you know what I am talking about, though you have said what you have in the above quote. May be you are saying this to draw me out

By denying the God represented in the Bible, people excuse themselves to stay in darkness so they can not see whom they are trusting. But "God is light" (in 1 John 1:5). God's love has light so in this love we can see right; if you have experienced natural light, you know how light can show you so much more than any amount of words can tell you; therefore, with God in His light, we don't even need to be told by God about whom to trust, because in sharing with Him we can see.

Hebrews 5:14 refers to how we can have "senses" "to discern both good and evil." And Jesus says not to evaluate by appearance > John 7:24. And our Apostle Paul prays for us to have how love gives us "knowledge and all discernment" > Philippians 1:9. Sheep have the senses of smell and of sight. We have love senses deeper than our natural human senses. This is why we need "faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6). We go by love's faith, not only by sight and people's say-so claims about themselves. We can test each person, and hold to what is good >

"Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

If we test something, we make sure about it. And the most reliable way of making sure is to submit to how God guides us in our evaluating. Proverbs 3:5-6 is very clear how we need to depend on God to guide us and not to ever take things into our own hands, I offer.

So, are you an expert who already know these things are in the Bible??

Now possibly you can see what I mean if I say I would not trust any and all apologists, since some might not believe there is God who personally shares with and personally guides His own children. They might be trying to prove the existence of some impersonal guy in the sky who is conceited and therefore distant.

But Jesus is not conceited and impersonal, though He is so superior; Jesus left Heaven itself in order to reach us and share with us and save us by dying for us, on Calvary's cross; so Jesus is not the one who is conceited; people can have God and Satan mixed up. But there are religious people who can be very into themselves, including certain so-called priests and hierarchical leaders; so they can represent God to be the way they are.

Not all are so, though; so we do well to be able to tell the difference . . . efficiently and not by time- and life-consuming trial and error!

Either I believe there is God who has us able to do this which the Bible says, or I am denying the existence of the God who is represented by the Bible, I would say. Yes, there are people who claim to be Christians, and they deny there is God our Father who personally cares for us and personally communicates with His own children, plus personally guides us so we are not fooled by evil people. He has things for us to do to serve Him, and He personally guides what His servants do; so it can be simple: we do what God has us doing, and this keeps us from being guided by evil people.

And this works very well with even ones who are more trustworthy, but they are not perfect. At times, a person might be trying to take me the wrong way, but I pray and submit to how God guides me and this keeps me from going along with someone while that one is mistaken. But other times he or she might be helpful. Plus, I can be guided . . . in spite of my own self!!! Jesus does say we need to deny ourselves, doesn't He? > Luke 9:23 < now, why would this be ? ? ? lololololololol he-he-he-he

But you already know this, right? You have checked out what you are supposed to be getting evidence for, haven't you? But this is worth attention. I myself need to feed on this, much more, so I am living and loving like this . . . not loving in the dark.

And, by the way, God's word says we in Jesus have been brought into God's kingdom of His "marvelous light" > 1 Peter 2.9.

Plus, I have given scripture which clearly says Jesus Christ's sheep know His voice and will not follow another > John 10:1-30. So, yes sheep can tell the difference between a Satanic leader and a person who is approved by God. Part of this process is how we in Jesus have been sharing with Him and His word; so we know the real Jesus and message; so if anyone ever comes along and tries to take us elsewhere, we can tell easily how that person is not right.

And our Apostle Paul gives us an example of this, how even Corinthian Christians with all their problems and deficiencies could tell the difference between leaders whom God approved and people whom Jesus did not choose to be their leaders >

1 Corinthians 11:18-20.

So, if I fool myself into trusting a wrong person because I did not make sure with God, this is my own fault. The Bible says we can make sure with God about every thing we do > I offer this, going by Romans 8:14, Joshua chapter nine, and Proverbs 3:5-6, and also 1 Thessalonians 5:21.

So, if anyone of the "public" trusted wrong people > they needed to follow the good example of people who were not going along with what the misled "public" was doing.

I mean, God's word says we are directed, even, to trust God to personally lead us, all the time (Romans 8:14, Proverbs 3:5-6, Colossians 3:15). Because our Father is personally interested in each of us. Part of our basic Christian calling > "in one body", our Apostle Paul does say, is to obey how our Father rules us in our "hearts" >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

This is very personal > right in our "hearts" > God ruling us with His own peace - - - in the heart of every child of God. And God is almighty; so this peace is almighty; and we are guaranteed by God's word, by the way, how His peace almighty "will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." Anyone, please see and feed on Philippians 4:6-7, about how to obey God so we are so sharing with Him in this peace, and trust Him to do this with us.

So, this is how personal the God represented by the Bible is; so therefore there are many who take people's attention elsewhere, plus they deny how our Heavenly Father is so personally loving and caring and sharing with His own children. Yes, some number of the public have been trusting people who do not minister them to this. At this time, we have political and media people who are totally highjacking people's attention elsewhere. But not all people of the public have been fooled. Whoever wrote these things in God's word know this, by the way

By the way > do you think evolution produced us, from atoms and molecules so we experience this ? ?

No offense, but this seems to he quite a bit of rambling. All I said was that we can't tell who is or isn't a rapist. Let's not blame children for being raped, or the parents for trusting the church.

com7fy8 said:
Possibly, you are considering the Roman Catholic Church to be Christianity. And so you are measuring Christianity by what the Roman Catholic Church's priests have been doing.

I myself do not consider the Roman Catholic Church to represent all of Christianity, and I do not trust that they have at any point in time ever been the sole representatives of God's word. I believe Jesus has always had His truly gentle and humble and kind and trustworthy people on this earth. However, big name public religious-and-political figures have possibly kept the real Jesus people from getting publicity in the media and politics.

But our leaders care for us with their example >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

These are people we can know personally so we can feed on their personal example in our real lives. This has always been going on, I believe, going by God's word.

But reports of history can be about more public people, and things can be rigged to look the way the ones controlling the history books want things to look.

The Bible describes who qualifies to be a Christian leader > 1 Timothy 3:1-10. This does not meet the description of ones some number of religious people have been ordaining!! But what wrong people do does not represent Christianity . . . in my opinion.

I have offered various scriptures in Post #12 about what I find God's word tells us about Christianity. But this is not what you seem to be talking about in discussing if Christianity is the one true religion.

I never said that the Roman Catholic Church represents all Christianity. I mentioned the Cub Scouts pedophile crisis and pointed out that they are a Protestant organization.

Nihilist Virus · Mar 29, 2020

Redac said:
The idea of the Holy Spirit guiding the Church is not the same as every member of its hierarchy being made morally superior and free from sin. You've either deliberately misrepresented this or you just don't know what you're talking about.

I think it's you who is misrepresenting me. I never said they need to be free from sin. I'm just setting the standard at not raping thousands of children, and the church miserably failed to live up to this standard.

Nihilist Virus · Mar 29, 2020

com7fy8 said:
It can mean a child of God is not being prayerful and attentive to how God enlightens and guides him or her.

And it can mean someone does not know God.

If I make a mistake of trusting the wrong person, I consider myself accountable for not having been attentive to how God would guide me. And I trust God to correct me so I do better.

Now, you say no one has answered the question in the original post >

First, the Holy Spirit does make God's approved leaders sufficient. So, this is a wrong "if" to use to start a question.

Even if the Holy Spirit does have really trustworthy leaders, this does not automatically mean apologists should be trusted. I would offer how you need to check out each individual. Just like there can be false church leaders, so also there can be false apologists, and there can be ones who have some all right points, but also they can be off. So, you do well to check out everything, by prayer and God's word and in sharing with people who are your good examples of teaching God's word and living God's way.

For you personally > my opinion is you are willing to care and find out what is good. And if I am right, God knows you care and He will honor this. And so it is good to meet you, and thank you for sharing. God bless you, too

I'm lost. My genuine interpretation of what you're saying is that it would be MY fault if I trusted my kids with a priest and then they got raped. And it looks like you also said that God's approved leaders can be trusted. Who on earth would trust their kids with a priest these days? And further, if they somehow could be trusted, then wouldn't it not be my fault if something happens to my kids?

I think you need to break your position down into more explicit detail because this is what I'm hearing.

Nihilist Virus · Mar 29, 2020

Amittai said:
We don't have to trust them, but if we do (half way) it should not be implicit, we build up our reasons, if we are sensible, but we do trust them implicitly if we are foolish like I was for half my life and like the people whose reasoning you cite in OP. Jesus & the apostles intended for there to be a distinction between individual and joint belief on the one hand, and organisation or corporate on the other. It never was supposed to be healthy to place more stress on the latter, until it has become de rigueur in the last 40 years. This is what led astray the prelates Masihi is in denial about. Christian leaders have largely stopped mentoring their flocks to mature. It's about boundaries.

I agree Philovoid hadn't dealt with this very much. Comfy is nearer the mark.

1. I don't think apologists should be addressing their material mostly to outsiders.
2. An evangeliser if you are interested, bears responsibility to discern what he is doing towards you. His church bears responsibility.
3. The whole thing has been in my experience so risky, I was swayed so many times and found 20 or 40 years later the ground opened and swallowed me up. Dr David Pawson estimates most christians aren't given a normal birth so no wonder their version turns out garbled, late in the day.

I'm not sure I follow your point. Are you basically saying that church leaders should not be automatically trusted but rather they should be on the same level as everyone else, and that trust must be earned?

2PhiloVoid · Mar 29, 2020

Nihilist Virus said:
I'm referring to the latter.

Uh, ok. Seems like a trivial distinction.

Well, yeah. That's what I was implying it would be in my first replies above.

Ok, sure.

You're basically just saying that we should do our due diligence, and that some people can be trusted while others can't. I'd like to just cut directly to the point rather than dance around it like that.

Sure, but in my articulations, I'd like to say something that, even if a little redundant, might help clarify my own specific position to everyone on these matters.

As always, you're the exception to the rule. If you already don't blindly trust church leaders and apologetics, then there's nothing to debate on this particular thread.

Alright. But thanks for allowing me the opportunity to 'drop by' and offer my two cents.

Be well and prosper!

Amittai · Mar 29, 2020

NV, I was so glad you have started this and that some are collaborating. To my mind, you are right in your interpretation of our best stance. Leaders or authorities shouldn't be pulling a fast one over on us or pushing us around. We have to engage with the issues and analyse in all possible ways and then some. Most people in society don't use intuition enough, which is actually logic based (see Gary Klein). Most religion is neurotic relationship which is beyond tragic. I've only just reached some of these insights at age 65. Your OP was a classic help.

Christian discernment has got to be based on honest prayer and thinking around the meaning of ALL Scriptures at once in their intended context. Mutual influence among informed Holy Spirit filled christians is vital. Evidence of God is mainly in individual human lives. I'm not an evangeliser so I can't say what comes first for you and at the moment this thread is for examining how apologetics works.

Huge ills arose:

- dumbing down and despising of learning
- sentimentality and mania

Most christians have been told lies about some complementary issues:

- prior and subsequent works
- saved, entering into the Kingdom of God

There were certain details Jesus deliberately didn't pin down.

When the time comes for you to make a move all the aspects of the thing will speak to all your faculties at once. You are so right in staying safe !!!

com7fy8 · Mar 29, 2020

Nihilist Virus said:
I'm lost.

I mean, if I trust my child to a wrong person and my child gets violated >

it is the predator's fault that he or she violated my child;

and because God's word says God wants to guide me, it is my fault that I was not guided by God in choosing whom I trust with my child; I doubt God would personally guide me to trust a predator with my child.

Another item > if you have the means to make sure about your child's safety, but you do not take advantage of this resource, then would you not therefore be partly at fault for what happens to your child?? If you enable an evil person to have an opportunity, when you could have made sure with God, your neglect is not the predator's fault, right?

Even if you don't believe God would help you about this, what do you expect me to think? I have found all the things which are in God's word, that indicate that we can and need to check everything with God . . . not only certain picked and selected items? And this is about how God is able, not about how we in some human way can invent religion which is do-it-yourself and therefore humanly dependent stuff. If Christianity were merely of human invention, then you would be correct to say we can't tell about people. But if the Bible is true and I have read and fed on it > well, I have simply shared what I have found actually written; so what else am I to think?

And no I do not think we should trust church leaders; not blindly is what I mean. Trust does not mean doing things blindly, necessarily. Often, before a person is trusted, the person is tested. And I have offered that we can make sure with God. But I do understand you are saying you do not believe this.

Nihilist Virus said:
parents for trusting the church.

You said not to blame parents for trusting the church. But the church is responsible to make sure with God > 1 Timothy 3:1-10 means this, included, in my opinion. But parents need to be able to know if they should trust church people, because not all are "the church". They do need to be able to tell the difference, though they might not be able to know exactly what is wrong with ones who are not trustworthy. Even if they do not know someone is a potential rapist, God can make us able to tell that they are not His way in love. This is possible with God who knows and is able to communicate. Jesus says, "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God," in Luke 18:27.

Nihilist Virus said:
If Jesus distrusted most religious leaders, then they were untrustworthy.

I would certainly say so. But Jesus really knew each leader's heart. He knew what was really true about each one.

cloudyday2 · Mar 29, 2020

@Nihilist Virus , sorry if somebody already mentioned this, but ideally an apologetics argument ought to fail or succeed independent of the trustworthiness of the person presenting the argument.

Amittai · Mar 30, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
@Nihilist Virus , sorry if somebody already mentioned this, but ideally an apologetics argument ought to fail or succeed independent of the trustworthiness of the person presenting the argument.

I second that strongly. And then the corollary of that is, that an account of the Faith is incomplete and distorted if it doesn't reflect implicitly the good boundaries of the believer and a mature and generous attitude from his fellows.

NV is so right in expressing vividly the legitimate anxiety of outsiders about the loss of individuality. Since Berulle, Spinoza and Hegel, world and church alike have increasingly been taken over by a monolithic false ideal. God's will is that we become free individuals. Prominent so called "ministers" blatantly flaunt their exploitation on TV. In many places, interlopers have by sentimentality and dumbing down lulled church members into becoming passive lookalikes since the mid 1980s and especially mid 1990s.

This is why we have to pray for our teachers, pastors and elders more and to prayerfully seek how to personally encourage each other with insights into how to apply the meaning of Scripture more. I meditate a lot on the talents and Jonah. These are about church members. These are about Holy Spirit indwelling and power for caring. Our brother is not an intolerable burden if he fails to keep to the prescribed body language for example. When the church is healthy, this becomes a powerful subtext in any apologetics.

Amittai · Mar 30, 2020

quote Comfy quoted within 19 ... even Corinthian Christians with all their problems and deficiencies could tell the difference between leaders whom God approved and people whom Jesus did not choose to be their leaders >

1 Corinthians 11:18-20.

So, if I fool myself into trusting a wrong person because I did not make sure with God, this is my own fault. The Bible says we can make sure with God about every thing we do > I offer this, going by Romans 8:14, Joshua chapter nine, and Proverbs 3:5-6, and also 1 Thessalonians 5:21.

So, if anyone of the "public" trusted wrong people > they needed to follow the good example of people who were not going along with what the misled "public" was doing. ...

Now possibly you can see what I mean if I say I would not trust any and all apologists, since some might not believe there is God who personally shares with and personally guides His own children. They might be trying to prove the existence of some impersonal guy in the sky who is conceited INSERTED: LIKE THEM and therefore distant. unquote

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
So are you saying that if someone can’t see who can be trusted before hand they are in darkness or they don’t actually know God? I’m just curious, if I’m way off just correct me. And I’m gonna keep reading but so far I haven’t seen anyone answer the question in the op.

God will call to account christians that misled enquirers, newcomers and the fellows. The invitation to responsibility and due diligence is not a blame game, from Him, unless we are old stagers. Making sure from God in an outsider can mean no more than a desire we don't even know we have, and may not be able to interpret the Bible at that stage. But a true friend will help. I got swayed by distorted messages so many times. That has taught me how to not do the same to others.

The whole church should have been praying for evangelisers with mature humility and generosity and individual discernment, and to seek out supporting apologetics and apologists having the same mindset.

coffee4u · Mar 30, 2020

Nihilist Virus said:
2.) Before Jesus was crucified, he distrusted most Jewish religious leaders.

3.) If Jesus distrusted most religious leaders, then they were untrustworthy.

4.) ???

Because you are supposed to put your trust in God and his word, not 'religious leaders'
In fact, they were a good example of people who use the label but who weren't righteous at all. The same way people called themselves Christians then went around doing all kind of atrocities across history. This is because these people were not born again Christians but people merely using the label because it suited their purposes.

Matthew 7:15

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Amittai · Mar 30, 2020

Nihilist Virus said: ↑

This is a little silly. We can't just "know" who is or isn't a rapist INSERT: OR TAKING THE [I must not curse]. The Holy Spirit is not making us wise to whom we can trust. It's simply trial and error.

It's not down to you at this stage except for possibly your intuition, which too few people use incidentally (there were times I should have).

2PhiloVoid said:
...

3) If Jesus distrusted to varying degrees many religious leaders, then they were untrustworthy to varying degrees.

Please correct me if I get the form of the argument wrong, but in my estimation, premise 4) and conclusion at line 5) should probably say something like:

4) We should be as cautious and as wary as Jesus told His disciples to be about trusting various religious leaders, whether they're Jewish or even Gentile, especially if and when they attempt to 'defend' their said faith in Christ.

5) Therefore, we should all carefully consider the extent to which, and the reasons why, we might 'trust' each individual religious leader who claims authority over other Christians or who offers statements of truth on behalf the Christian faith. ...

I don't think the Book of Acts, or any other letter or work in the New Testament for that matter, actually teaches that the Holy Spirit will, in Calvinistic style, force-fit any follower of The Way to fully and instantaneously transform into a paragon of Christ-like virtue.

No, I've always been under the interpretive impression that the Christian Life, even when Existentially considered, is a growth process, one requiring a maturating dynamic in one's learning and moral discipline. l see it also as a process through which social ramifications can take place along with specific moments of spiritual and social disqualification, and these may be applied along the way due to various moral failures. With this in mind, instances where leaders of the Church (from any denomination) flout being appropriately accountable for various immoral choices they've made and have egregiously impacted other people in obviously unChristian ways shouldn't be allowed to continue on in either their ministries or in any official leadership positions within their respective churches.

I reject the premise that the Holy Spirit will irresistibly transform a follower of Jesus, even if and when he/she claims the status of being 'born again.' ...

As for apologists themselves, I wouldn't expect them to fully ... the Church and its actions as a whole, but rather to teach, explain and defend the essential teachings ... .

Philovoid, your points 2, 3, 4 and 5 apply to those already inside the church. The sign of Jonah is given to christians: we have been acting like the Assyrians!

Point 3 however is about how near to the rbink we are.

Yes the egregiously impacting is the deep down disrespecting of individuality.

In some churches is a legalism to not differ from the imposed laxity. Good hearted outsiders can smell this.

(I like the phrase about "Calvinistic style force fitting".)

Moral Orel · Mar 30, 2020

Nihilist Virus said:
I'm just setting the standard at not raping thousands of children, and the church miserably failed to live up to this standard.

The thought of a forty-year-old having a romantic relationship with a four-year-old is certainly monstrous to you and me, but that's due to our inferior subjective morality that's ultimately based on nothingness. Using the far superior objective source of morality found in the Bible, you can't make a case that there's anything wrong with such a relationship, so why would you hold the church to a standard that they don't have?

Amittai · Mar 30, 2020

Moral Orel said:
The thought of a forty-year-old having a romantic relationship with a four-year-old is certainly monstrous to you and me, but that's due to our inferior subjective morality that's ultimately based on nothingness. Using the far superior objective source of morality found in the Bible, you can't make a case that there's anything wrong with such a relationship, so why would you hold the church to a standard that they don't have?

I presume Nihilist is challenging christians to think whether we hold ourselves to such (one half of the diatribe technique).

I know what you mean by "nothingness" which is why I have mentioned the subtext which some prominent christians have attached to the meaning of Scripture by their bad dynamics and preaching.

Amittai · Mar 30, 2020

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Trusting apologists

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