Some thoughts on homosexuality

nolidad said:

A lot of believers need to realize that if a homosexual gives their life to christ and get saved, that does not mean they become heterosexual. They may have sexual desires for the same sex the rest of their lives!

... We tend to be far more forgiving of the heterosexual sin than the homosexual sin. God is equalling forgiving of both believers if they practice 1 John 1:9 in faith.

With that said, I would recommend two homosexual believers from sharing the same dwelling together. It is just as tempting as to have a guy and girl living together and trying to be celibate.

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Yes I Jn 1:9 is the core issue. It's arguable whether those who turn chaste both in deed and in how they handle desires "are" homosexual but I know some who choose that label while mixing with outsiders to flag up a new model for others. They need other Christians to help them go on with the Lord and the Lord's people and to help seek discernment. You're so right orientation at whatever level, and in its own terms, is so individual. Terminology promulgated by social scientists can evolve and is often not based on a wide objective spectrum of experiences.

nolidad said:

A lot of believers need to realize that if a homosexual gives their life to christ and get saved, that does not mean they become heterosexual. They may have sexual desires for the same sex the rest of their lives!

As long as they do not enter into a marriage type relationship (via the law) and remain celibate- I do not see any prohibitioni n the Bible.

A heterosexual who falls into sexual sin will sin with the opposite sex. A homosexual will fall with one of the same sex. We tend to be far more forgiving of the heterosexual sin than the homosexual sin. God is equalling forgiving of both believers if they practice 1 John 1:9 in faith.

With that said, I would recommend two homosexual believers from sharing the same dwelling together. It is just as tempting as to have a guy and girl living together and trying to be celibate.

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I was taught fidelity in marriage or celibacy as a single. A street preacher convinced me homosexuality is wrong. I avoided it. Sex is for to bring a child into the world. It serves no other useful purpose.

dqhall said:

I was taught fidelity in marriage or celibacy as a single. A street preacher convinced me homosexuality is wrong. I avoided it. Sex is for to bring a child into the world. It serves no other useful purpose.

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I would want a Josephite marriage and I think lots of women would too.

Amittai said:

Yes - but the propagandists and those who are naively influenced by them say that it is. My friend's 9 year old is gay because he was told at school and also because Pete Buttirzerz says. Gays' inalienable right to tell the children this and implicate the latter in all the prurience before they are able to stand up to authority figures stems straight from their transubstantive ontology.

Gays are told they must consider themselves authority figures otherwise they are letting their caste system down. I do know some chaste pairs of the same sex who continue to call themselves "gay" simply to present a model (among many models) to others like them.

This kind of package dealing is something it is hard work to reject and unfair. We've got to mix & match our own lives. I'm glad, Quatermaine, that you've held out for what you want.

There's regulation dress and gestures, which shouldn't have to have connotations attached to them.

Some boys had a light and twisty step and quiet voices and struck up what relationships they wanted in their own time.

Is gay supposed to be a more terrible kind of butch?

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what is it you think i want?

dqhall said:

I was taught fidelity in marriage or celibacy as a single. A street preacher convinced me homosexuality is wrong. I avoided it. Sex is for to bring a child into the world. It serves no other useful purpose.

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Well sex is for repopulation, but it is also for a husband and wife to join as one in love and deepen their relationship. God made it so very enjoyable, so we can enjoy it as often as a couple desires! How many children a married couple should have is between them and God!

People need to learn that the marriage ceremony does not make a couple married! The ceremony only authorizes a couple to be married. A couple, biblically speaking is considered married when they consummated their marriage by intercourse!

theoneandonlypencil said:

P

I actually have no idea what you're talking about now. You're not being specific at all.

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it's pretty self explanatory. your statement is practically identical to the message that the one given out by the abusive organized-religion tyrants you are criticizing.

Amittai said:

Yes - but the propagandists and those who are naively influenced by them say that it is. My friend's 9 year old is gay because he was told at school and also because Pete Buttirzerz says. Gays' inalienable right to tell the children this and implicate the latter in all the prurience before they are able to stand up to authority figures stems straight from their transubstantive ontology.

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As Paul said in corinthians- what do we have to do with the World? We serve the kingdom of God and not men! We present the gospel to a lost and dying world! If you think we are going to win the day- read the end of our Masters' master manual. We lose the battle but He has won the war.

Let us plead with the world for godly actions and rules (though they don't save a soul), but let us remember, without the Holy Spirit guiding them and enlightening them, they can't see what we see!

nolidad said:

Well sex is for repopulation, but it is also for a husband and wife to join as one in love and deepen their relationship. God made it so very enjoyable, so we can enjoy it as often as a couple desires! How many children a married couple should have is between them and God!

People need to learn that the marriage ceremony does not make a couple married! The ceremony only authorizes a couple to be married. A couple, biblically speaking is considered married when they consummated their marriage by intercourse!

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Humanly speaking which we are permitted, marriage is considered a fact when we marry. This is not central to the OP's point though.,

Quartermaine said:

what is it you think i want?

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I think you want something opposite to that, and for individuals to be left free to mind their own business without interlopers hijacking it.

theoneandonlypencil said:

*note: To be clear, I do believe that same-sex sexual relationships are considered a sin. More on this view to come*


Hey everyone, I'm here with some food for thought.

I've been seeing a lot of homosexual content in media lately(it's almost everywhere at this point)and it has lead me to do some long thinking on the subject. I've had some thoughts about it, and so as to keep things short & sweet I'll just summarize them in bullet points;

• I don't consider love or devotion to someone the same sex homosexual. This is because to me, I think the defining distinction(unpopular opinion here)between romantic and platonic love is the sexual attraction. Even things like an innocent kiss, while not being overtly sexual, are usually an expression of subconscious attraction that--in one way or another, preferably after marriage--will almost always end in sexual intimacy.
• To add to that point is a favorite saying of mine; "Love is love...but just because I love my best friend and my parents, doesn't mean I want to have sex with any of them."
• Having said all of that, if two people of the same sex(not excluding people without homosexual orientation)deeply care about each other and want to stay together for all of their lives, I don't mind if they end up being buddies in celibacy; so long as there is no sexual temptation or sexual intimacy...at which point I really wouldn't even consider them homosexual anymore. (I don't think this would be a sin? Unless it's with someone you're already sexually attracted to)
• Has anyone noticed the homoeroticism in media these days, or is it just me? I'm an avid anime fan, and I know for certain it is extremely popular in the older animes and the shoujo genre in particular(examples that come to mind are neon genesis evangelion, cardcaptor sakura and sailor moon). On one note it's a little creepy and unsettling to me, and on another note, I would actually really enjoy the relationships if they didn't have overt undertones of a sexual nature(I.E. being classified as 'gay' instead of a close friendship). I find the kind of pure, strong and devoted love to someone of the same sex actually really endearing and inspiring...and I know I'd catch a lot of heat for saying this anywhere other than here, but it's really sad to see those kinds of relationships being degraded to 'crushes' or something of a romantic/sexual nature.
• I'm starting to resent the fact that english only has one variant of 'love'. The greeks, imo, had the right idea having different words for different classifications of love. I actually really don't think many examples of 'homosexuality' is eros love, on that note; perhaps a mixture of agape and philia would be more accurate(I do not follow plato's notion that eros strengthens philia; I believe agape is much more fitting)
• Lastly, let us not forget that one can be trained to find almost anything--weird as it may be--sexually stimulating so long as it gets us...off....you know. (Ex-inappropriate content addicts and kinksters, I'm looking at y'all)

That's pretty much it for now. I'd love to hear some comments and opinions on these points.

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So what do you think of the account about Judah and Tamar? A story where Judah initially judges his daughter in law to be guilty of prostitution of the severity to be sentenced to be burned to death Genesis 38:24 but then finds out he's the father and says, "Judah recognized them and said, “She is more righteous than I, since I wouldn’t give her to my son Shelah.” And he did not sleep with her again." ?

It's a hard one to unpack because nowadays after thousands of years, would you condone father in-laws sleeping with the childless widows of their son?

start quote Pencil: Factually, there are indeed many people who 'try out' homosexuality and find out in just a few years of 'experimenting' that they are indeed straight. Quartermaine: yes, that is exactly the message of abusive organized-religion tyrants. end quote

Precisely because this is a gambit of those tyrants and I have heard them saying it myself, it would strengthen Pencil's case to include the intrusive and demeaning erotifying of opposite sexes just as much as same sexes.

The "defence" of the predators is "oh they find it "empowering"". By whose condescension may I ask!

I think Pencil is getting carried away by her so called romance! Is she an orientation changer in disguise? God will let our habitus see to itself as we grow. If Christianity is not solid we ought not to presume to "offer" anything for anyone's habitus, it's highly insulting as Quartermaine is courageous enough to warn us. WHY oh why do christians make such a hobby of making personal remarks about others. Lay down your pencil till you've got this properly please!

Rather an honest "complicator" than a sophistimising "subtler" perhaps?

To God, Christianity is about shall we tiptoe around the garden and say "more than just sex". We REALLY have to avoid being sex maniacs while pretending not to be sex maniacs.

See the thread started by Gospels under general theology. Everyone's life is too short and God will ask us why we trifled.

We have got to get a life and lots of it and a very broad level of involvement in everything with all our faculties.

"Straight" is not a category in God's eyes. It is a quality.

dqhall said:

I was taught fidelity in marriage or celibacy as a single. A street preacher convinced me homosexuality is wrong. I avoided it. Sex is for to bring a child into the world. It serves no other useful purpose.

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Other than stress release along the same lines of gluttony and alcohol/drug use.

One of my key thoughts about the subject are found in two letters the apostle Paul wrote about: Romans 6 and the passage surrounding 1 Corinthians 6:15

nolidad said:

...

Let us plead with the world for godly actions and rules (though they don't save a soul), but let us remember, without the Holy Spirit guiding them and enlightening them, they can't see what we see!

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Let us plead with ourselves for godly actions and inner principles of heart (Christians always forget the principle of principle). Without the Holy Spirit guiding us and enlightening us we can't see.

God judges the people that had the talents. The talents is husbanding ALL OF our faculties. Did we desire the growth of other Christians?

Pharisees made each proselyte seven times worse than themselves. Dr David Pawson warned, most christians haven't been given a normal birth.

Rv 3:20 is for those in the churches already.

theoneandonlypencil said:

• I don't consider love or devotion to someone the same sex homosexual. This is because to me, I think the defining distinction(unpopular opinion here)between romantic and platonic love is the sexual attraction. Even things like an innocent kiss, while not being overtly sexual, are usually an expression of subconscious attraction that--in one way or another, preferably after marriage--will almost always end in sexual intimacy.

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I'm a bit confused on whether you think that a kiss between two men is homosexual or not. It's not an expression of heterosexual friendship in American culture, so I'm not inclined to say it's OK, cultural differences notwithstanding (i.e. customary greetings in certain countries, and the exchange between Michael and Fredo in Godfather II don't count as gay).

theoneandonlypencil said:

• Having said all of that, if two people of the same sex(not excluding people without homosexual orientation)deeply care about each other and want to stay together for all of their lives, I don't mind if they end up being buddies in celibacy; so long as there is no sexual temptation or sexual intimacy...at which point I really wouldn't even consider them homosexual anymore. (I don't think this would be a sin? Unless it's with someone you're already sexually attracted to)

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I suppose we need to define what you mean by "buddies in celibacy." If it is 100% indistinguishable from regular straight best friends, fine. If it's becoming a couple that doesn't have sex, it's not. If you've got two men who want to live together and adopt a child together, that's building a home as should be done with a woman. That isn't right because that's a major part of what marriage is, license or no. Let's say a man has a young wife and kid and then goes off to war. His best friend who is single doesn't, but he moves into their house and takes care of things there, even though he and the man's wife totally aren't having sex. It doesn't look right for a very good reason. I would say two cohabitating men like that are out of bounds as well. This is different from two roommates that just get along. They're sharing expenses, but there's not that extra togetherness. They don't even have to be best friends, roommates just need to live with each other well.

theoneandonlypencil said:

• Has anyone noticed the homoeroticism in media these days, or is it just me? I'm an avid anime fan, and I know for certain it is extremely popular in the older animes and the shoujo genre in particular(examples that come to mind are neon genesis evangelion, cardcaptor sakura and sailor moon). On one note it's a little creepy and unsettling to me, and on another note, I would actually really enjoy the relationships if they didn't have overt undertones of a sexual nature(I.E. being classified as 'gay' instead of a close friendship). I find the kind of pure, strong and devoted love to someone of the same sex actually really endearing and inspiring...and I know I'd catch a lot of heat for saying this anywhere other than here, but it's really sad to see those kinds of relationships being degraded to 'crushes' or something of a romantic/sexual nature.

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Yeah, I've noticed it. Lots of guys will forgive it and the blasphemy in Boondock Saints because the action and the comedy are so well done. In Fallout 4, I really think it was detrimental to have certain companions turn into bisexual creepers the more they begin to like you. Those relationships felt one-dimensional. Why not have a classic buddy path be available for us to play with them instead? One of the many things that could have been better done in that game.

theoneandonlypencil said:

• I'm starting to resent the fact that english only has one variant of 'love'. The greeks, imo, had the right idea having different words for different classifications of love. I actually really don't think many examples of 'homosexuality' is eros love, on that note; perhaps a mixture of agape and philia would be more accurate(I do not follow plato's notion that eros strengthens philia; I believe agape is much more fitting)

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It's good for us to study those forms of love and how the New Testament talks about them.

theoneandonlypencil said:

• Lastly, let us not forget that one can be trained to find almost anything--weird as it may be--sexually stimulating so long as it gets us...off....you know. (Ex-inappropriate content addicts and kinksters, I'm looking at y'all)

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Yes. I work for an Internet company. Certain clients of ours have demonstrated that in ways that I had never bothered to imagine. (If it's illegal/against our TOS, I begin the banhammer process immediately.)

theoneandonlypencil said:

By an 'innocent kiss', I mean one on the mouth--the kind you'd give to express romantic affection to your wife or husband. That would be considered homosexual with another man, since that kind of kissing has sexual undertones even if it's very suble and not very 'sinful'.

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To clarify: still sinful to you?

theoneandonlypencil said:

"If it is 100% indistinguishable from regular straight best friends, fine."

That summarizes my point. I really stink at explaining things so I botched that point of mine. What I was saying is, it would be good for a celibate to have sort of an 'emotional rock' to lean on if they're going to be celibate, someone that can be depended on until the end. The orientation of either party doesn't particularly matter--though I would agree it would be unwise for a celibate homosexual to have such close ties with a person he/she previously had 'feelings' for.

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Since male friendships and female friendships tend to have different undertones, I recommend not speaking at length about male friendships. Many women don't get them. I try not to speak at length about female friendships for the same reason, I don't get them.

theoneandonlypencil said:

Cohabitation, I don't really have a stance on. I suppose it depends on the individual? In my humble opinion, perhaps living in a community or someplace with multiple like-minded people there rather than just the two individuals(something akin to a monk monastery)would probably be safer and more spiritually beneficial.

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When you have multiple gay people living together and they know they're gay, that multiplies temptation. I would not recommend that to a gay Christian.
Roommates as far as I'm concerned are just roommates. Sometimes roommates are also friends. More than that is inappropriate in every circumstance I can think of right now. Roommates is a hard thing to get right, in my experience. People who live together grate at each other.

theoneandonlypencil said:

Just to add my two cents here; I certainly don't think ALL gay people are going through a 'phase'. Just that some of them definitely are, and we should be careful not to assume everyone is just 'born that way' or are gay because of how they act/talk. I for one had an ex who became extremely insecure because despite being straight his entire life, everyone around him told him he looked/acted gay and kept feeding him this notion and it really did a number on him. That's what I'm trying to prevent.

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Your nuancing or should I say complicating, has enhanced the situation but God does not have a category of straight, to Him there is a quality of straight.

Yes it "does a number" on my friend's 9 year old, and Pete B's 9 year old "little friend".

I was in my late twenties when a church worker told a bunch of us single people my age were "gay" and I wasn't going to let that go in front of kids half my age becaused I didn't believe in package dealing and I don't now. Furthermore at one time there was an etiquette that one called oneself that if one wanted, no-one else did.

If you conform imperceptibly to the worldly patterns - complex as you admit they are - will readers get enough contrast towards the points you want to bring out?

Incidentally it's vital a single guy have MORE THAN one close friend. Frienships should be shared in the church. Because of connotations of major infighting, people dumped me on Celia & Margaret who dumped me on James who is good but needs his space and I let him choose his timing. My new round of acquaintances are thankfully a total contrast. The Holy Trinity embodies making room for the Other Other.