Question for rapture people

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Not wrong, but not the full picture.
I repeat:

Also many other prophesies prove the virtual demise of apostate Judah in the forthcoming Day of the Lords fiery wrath. Paul says it clearly in Romans 9:27.
Dan 12:New American Standard Bible
I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.

You can argue "till the cows come home," but here is truth: we know that the 70th week - the final part of the 70 weeks - is for DANIEL'S people, the Jews. Here God is calling them "the holy People." I wonder what you are calling them.

This verse TELLS US flat out His purpose in the 70th week: it is to shatter or completely destroy their power. What does this mean? They put their trust, for the most part, in their IDF: their Israeli Defense Forces. God is going to send the nations of the world to totally and completely destroy their defenses. Finally, those left alive will realize, they have only ONE (1) hope left: they are forced to turn to God for their salvation - and that is what God has been looking for all along.

Some will escape from Jerusalem through the new valley formed when Jesus touches down. Don't even THINK that it will be the church or members of the church under attack in Jerusalem! For the most part, JEWS live there. Then those that fled when they saw the abomination will be rescued by Jesus Himself - and again just in the nick of time.

Just so you know, this is why most on these threads don't believe your theories: the word of God, properly understood, disagrees with you. The 70th week is not for the church. Period and end of story.
 
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Not wrong, but not the full picture.
I repeat:

Also many other prophesies prove the virtual demise of apostate Judah in the forthcoming Day of the Lords fiery wrath. Paul says it clearly in Romans 9:27.

Well this ends our conversation. If you cannot see that God purifies and refines all of the 1/3 rd, then I guess you can't be sure of any English language phrase. this is as clear as clear can be.

Don't believe me? Take itr to an English grammar teacher and ask them. They may not believe it, but they can instruct you in the simple language used here that absolutely shows all of the remaining third God calls His people after He refines them.

Zechariah 13:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

1. verse 8 1/3 of all Israelis will be left.
2. verse 9 God brings the 1/3 through th efire
3. verse 9 God refines the 1/3 as silver is refined
4. verse 9 God tries the 1/3 as gold is tried. (if you do not know the purpose of refining and trying metals I will explain)
5. verse 9 the 1/3 will call on Gods name.
6. Verse 9 God hears the 1/3
7. verse 9 God will say the 1/3 is His people
8. verse 9 the 1/3 will say the Lord is my God!

This is how th everse looks if you remove the pronouns and put in the subject noun the pronoun substitutes.

If you do not understand this, I do not see how we can discuss further.
 
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Also many other prophesies prove the virtual demise of apostate Judah in the forthcoming Day of the Lords fiery wrath. Paul says it clearly in Romans 9:27.

And if you paid attention to Scripture, it is the 2/3 of Israel and Judah (which God joins to gether in the last days) that are apostate and destroyed and it is the 1/3 of Israel and Judah (that God will rejoin in the last days) that will call on him and God will save them! That is the bible as written and not retranslated.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,563
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,794.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Just so you know, this is why most on these threads don't believe your theories: the word of God, properly understood, disagrees with you. The 70th week is not for the church. Period and end of story.
Most have been fooled by false teachings, so the scriptures I post conflict with their beliefs.
The 'end of the story' is when everything that the Prophets said will come to pass.
If you do not understand this, I do not see how we can discuss further.
No; as you avoid the Bible verses I posted, that say only a remnant of Judah will survive. How many Jews today have accepted Jesus? Only a small number; about .05% of Jews.

Over the 20 centuries since the time of Jesus Christ’s first coming to earth, the Jewish people have suffered terrible persecutions, pogroms and discrimination.
This fulfils several prophecies – that the Jews will be a curse and objects of derision in the world.
Jeremiah 17:1-4 The sins of Judah are recorded on their hearts, the fire of My anger will burn forever.

Ezekiel 21:2-7 Son of man, set your face toward Jerusalem and prophesy against the Land of Israel. I shall draw My sword to cut off everyone from South to North.
I will make away with both the righteous and wicked, My sword will be drawn against everyone from the Negev northward. All courage will fail – it will surely take place.

Ezekiel 21:10-14 A sword is sharpened for the slaughter, polished to flash like lightning.
Should we rejoice in the scepter of Judah? No, the sword condemns the Rod of My Son. Cry and wail for it falls on My people – all your rulers will be killed.
Testing will surely come – what if the scepter of Judah, which the sword despises, does not continue? Swing the sword three times, the great sword of slaughter.

Verse 14 is highly significant, as it foretells three judgements of the Jewish people:

1/ The Babylonian conquest in 585BC.

2/ The revolt against the Romans, Maccabees to AD 70, when millions were killed.
3/ The final gathering and judgement of the Jewish people in the Land. This time by the Lord Himself. Jeremiah 12:14

At the trial of Jesus, the Jews said in; Matthew 27:25 His blood be on us and our children. In the parable of the King and his servants, Luke 19:14 ..his subjects hated him and said “We don’t want this man to be our King

Luke 19:27 As for those enemies of Mine that did not want Me for a King, bring them here ( into the Land, as in 1948 ) and slaughter them in My presence.

Matthew 21:38-43 The parable of the vineyard - The wicked tenants said; This is the Heir, come – let us kill him and get the inheritance. The King will bring those criminals to justice and destroy them. He will then rent the vineyard to righteous tenants.

Therefore the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, ( Jews )
and given to a people who will bear the proper fruit. (Faithful Christians)


Ezekiel 16:35-62 The Lord is saying how He rescued and tended Judah, but her depraved conduct surpassed even that of her sisters, Samaria ( Israel ) and Sodom

Therefore, you prostitute, because of your brazen excesses, I shall assemble all those around you - whom you loved. I shall bring you to trial for adultery and murder.

When I hand you over to them, they will strip you naked. They will punish you with stones and swords, burn down your houses and execute judgement in the sight of many women. You surpassed the sins of your sisters, Samaria and Sodom.


Judah, judged and punished, in the next prophesied event; the Sixth Seal devastation of the entire Middle East. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Isaiah 22:1-14

Jeremiah 8:3 The Lord says to the leaders of Judah; You will be as dung spread over the ground. This wicked race would rather die than live. Isaiah 22:14, Luke 19:27

Jeremiah 18:1-10 The Potter and the clay.
v6 House of Israel, I will remould you as a potter would a spoilt pot.
Israel, the Northern 10 tribes, are to be ‘remoulded’. Ezekiel 36:25-28

Jeremiah 19:3 Proclaim to the leaders and citizens of Judah:
v11 I shall smash this people as an earthen vessel is smashed beyond repair. There will be no room left to bury them.

In the land of Israel today, 42% of the Jewish population are secular ( atheist ) 25% believe in God, but do not actively worship Him and 12% practice Judaism, 8% are the ultra orthodox Haredi Jews. In all the amazing things that have happened to the Jews since 1948 – their resettlement, restored language and wars won, they still do not acknowledge Gods hand in their affairs. He has helped them, for the reason that they are a part of His originally chosen people, but their continued rejection of Jesus and their sinful ways will result in their being virtually wiped out on the Lord’s Day of wrath. Only a remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 29:1-4, Romans 9:27

The eventual restoration of a Jewish remnant, in their shame and humiliation. Ezekiel 16:63, Romans 9:27

Psalms 69:36 The children of those who serve Him will inherit the Land and those who love His name will live there. Psalm 37:7-40
Reference; Revised English bible, some verses abridged.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Well this ends our conversation. If you cannot see that God purifies and refines all of the 1/3 rd, then I guess you can't be sure of any English language phrase. this is as clear as clear can be.

Don't believe me? Take itr to an English grammar teacher and ask them. They may not believe it, but they can instruct you in the simple language used here that absolutely shows all of the remaining third God calls His people after He refines them.

Zechariah 13:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

1. verse 8 1/3 of all Israelis will be left.
2. verse 9 God brings the 1/3 through th efire
3. verse 9 God refines the 1/3 as silver is refined
4. verse 9 God tries the 1/3 as gold is tried. (if you do not know the purpose of refining and trying metals I will explain)
5. verse 9 the 1/3 will call on Gods name.
6. Verse 9 God hears the 1/3
7. verse 9 God will say the 1/3 is His people
8. verse 9 the 1/3 will say the Lord is my God!

This is how th everse looks if you remove the pronouns and put in the subject noun the pronoun substitutes.

If you do not understand this, I do not see how we can discuss further.
My sentiments exactly!
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,563
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,794.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
My sentiments exactly!
So basically; what the Bible teaches is not your guide.
Your preference is to believe theories and ideas that are not supported by scripture. Just as Paul said that many would do. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
So basically; what the Bible teaches is not your guide.
Your preference is to believe theories and ideas that are not supported by scripture. Just as Paul said that many would do. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
Not at all. I choose to believe those scriptures Nolidad showed you - the scriptures your theory denies.
These scriptures should be your guide, but it is clear they are not.
I have a novel idea: throw all your theories into the trash and start over: this time form theories from scriptures AS WRITTEN. Don't form a theory from an isolated verse. Don't form a theory from a verse out of its context. Form a theory only after studying ALL the end times scriptures.

Since the New Testament is a later revelation, and explains the Old, don't form theories from the Old before checking it with the New. Finally, since Revelation is the most thorough study on the end times, form theories from Revelation, not from the minor scriptures. Then fill in missing pieces from the minor scriptures. For example, Daniel has one verse on the 70th week in chapter 9, Revelation had 9 chapters on the 70th week.
 
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
So basically; what the Bible teaches is not your guide.
Your preference is to believe theories and ideas that are not supported by scripture. Just as Paul said that many would do. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

This will be my last post. You choose to only see the punishment of God against the 12 tribes of Israel. These are true and I do not deny them in the least. But I also accept the verses where God restores the twelve tribes and save the one third (which I noticed you refused to comment on when I laid it our grammatically for you).

It is deep seated anti-semitic teaching that clouds your thinking- no the bible.

It is fruitless to continue this. You only wish to see the parts of the Bioble that agree with your theories and then call them God!

You can have th elast comment.
 
Upvote 0

FredVB

Regular Member
Mar 11, 2010
4,507
921
America
Visit site
✟265,291.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Christian believers who believe they are by virtue of being believers then Israel to whom the promises to Israel in the Bible will be fulfilled are not all obedient to the commandments to Israel, so they are no better than those who are not obedient to the commandments for Israel who are there now. They are in no position to replace them, not observing the commandments.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,983
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,167.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Christian believers who believe they are by virtue of being believers then Israel to whom the promises to Israel in the Bible will be fulfilled are not all obedient to the commandments to Israel, so they are no better than those who are not obedient to the commandments for Israel who are there now. They are in no position to replace them, not observing the commandments.

Natural designations are repeatedly shown in the New Testament to mean nothing today. The spiritual designations that were near exclusively restricted to natural Israelites have now been placed upon the Gentiles by faith. Popular Old Testament terms like “the children of Abraham, “Israel,” “Jews,” “the circumcision” and “Zion” (“Sion”) that overwhelmingly described the Hebrew offspring of Abraham in the Old Testament are now employed under the new arrangement in a wider spiritual sense.
 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,371
2,301
43
Helena
✟203,984.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

Isaiah 26:17-21
17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord.
18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

So, what is being described here, is the same birth pangs that Jesus refers to before His second coming, followed by intense persecution, followed by a resurrection of the dead, and then hiding the faithful from the wrath of God, while God takes vengeance on the world for the persecution of His people.

it is key to note that this is consistent throughout the bible that it teaches that there is intense persecution, and Israel being surrounded by enemies, all of these tribulations are caused by heathen men. It is followed throughout old testament prophecy with the darkening of the sun and moon, and the Day of the Lord, the wrath of God. But in between in this passage, is the resurrection and deliverance of the elect.
This is consistent with the Gospels Olivet Discourse, which shows the Great Tribulation (note that none of the trumpet or bowl judgements are given as signs by Jesus) followed by the coming of the Lord on the Clouds and the Gathering of the Elect (the rapture)

So the bible teaches a rapture just not a pretribulation one. It teaches a pre-day of the Lord rapture.
The split timings is basically dependent on what you consider the "Day of the Lord" to be.
For pre trib, they consider the entire "7 year tribulation" (a term NEVER used in scripture) to be the "Day of the Lord"
for Pre-Wrath, we consider "the Day of the Lord" to begin after the 6th seal, Revelation 6:17 makes it clear to us.
for Post Trib, they are hyperliteral about "the Day of the Lord" being a literal 24 hour day at the end of the 70th week even though the 5th trumpet takes 5 months by itself.
 
Upvote 0

FredVB

Regular Member
Mar 11, 2010
4,507
921
America
Visit site
✟265,291.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
sovereigngrace said:
Natural designations are repeatedly shown in the New Testament to mean nothing today. The spiritual designations that were near exclusively restricted to natural Israelites have now been placed upon the Gentiles by faith. Popular Old Testament terms like “the children of Abraham, “Israel,” “Jews,” “the circumcision” and “Zion” (“Sion”) that overwhelmingly described the Hebrew offspring of Abraham in the Old Testament are now employed under the new arrangement in a wider spiritual sense.

What would all this mean? Natural designations all mean nothing today? Do you mean that, really? No meanings continue as they were? That message sounds very suspicious, still. Meanings outside of the Bible should be as they were, why would they not be? And then why would meanings shown the Bible be different, and not continue, even when any are shown to be forever in what is said? Commandments showing what sin is show condemnation to those unrepentant sinners who will not observe those, why would they not apply for the obedience of any believers? That message contrary to Bible passages is still suspicious. When all the meanings from before are spiritualized, so that those not of Israel will be Israel in what was meant, and without obedience to commandments that are to separate any from sin, when what is grafted in can still be removed, why would the designations of the land for Israel not be changed, that such now meant, spiritually, would not actually go to as there is a spiritual meaning to the land?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums