Regardless of the immediate issue, we must keep sight of our moral bedrock

Evan Jellicoe

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People always have a tendency to focus on whatever conflict is getting the most attention. But it’s still good to step back from time to time and review one’s foundational assumptions and values. For Christians, that means doing constant course corrections to make sure that the Bible, rather than one’s own emotions—or peer pressure—is the motivation for one’s actions.

Consider how Southern Christians defending the institution of slavery prior to the Civil War. In hindsight, their motivation was clearly cultural rather than Biblical. Instead of going to the Bible to see what it really said, they went to the Bible to find passages that proved what they already believed. They managed to find a lot of verses that appeared to be accepting of slavery, but then they completely missed the fact that race-based slavery is never found in the Bible, anywhere. On the contrary, it was perfectly legal for a Hebrew man to own a Hebrew slave. There is no support anywhere for the idea that a black man could be a slave, but a white man could not.

Following up on that fact, it is also true that there is no Biblical justification for racial or ethnic prejudice of any sort. Consider Revelation 7:9-10:

“After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, ‘Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.’”

In this vision the Apostle John sees people from every nation, every ethnic group, and every language worshipping the Lamb (Christ) on an equal footing. There is no hint that in heaven some earthly groups will be superior and some inferior. And even if (purely for the sake of argument) there were distinctions in “worthiness” in heaven, there certainly would be no mistreatment of a “lesser” group by a “greater” one, as Paul says of different members of the Body of Christ here on earth: “On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor.” [1 Corinthians 12:22-23]. God does not show favoritism among His children, and He clearly does not approve Christians doing so, either. So any individual or group that advocates or approves of “white supremacy” is not following the teachings of the Bible.

Much more could be said on that topic, but I will save that for a separate post. All I want to add right now is that the idea that one political party is essentially pro-Christian while the other is anti-Christian is not supported by the Bible. Both parties (not just one of them) hold to some principles that are taught in Scripture, and both parties (not just one of them) hold to some principles that the Bible strongly condemns. Most particularly, members of both parties seem to subscribe to the doctrine of “Love your friends and hate your enemies,” which Jesus very specifically taught against: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven.” [Matthew 5:43-45]

If there is one aspect of modern politics that I particularly dislike, it is the hatred both sides so often display toward each other. It so happens that after many years of voting Republican I now vote Democratic, but God does not allow me to hold any hatred toward Republicans, and any Christian who sincerely believes that he should vote Republican should hold no hatred toward Democrats. No matter which “side” we come down on, we should be showing the world how Christians behave, and Jesus taught that the first and most important thing we should be showing the world is that we Christians love each other [John 13:35, “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”] and we demonstrate our faith by doing good to all, not just our “friends” [Matthew 5:16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.”]

Specific points of political belief may matter, but our fundamental moral behavior matters most of all.
 
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Evan Jellicoe

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As a specific example: While it may be true that all politicians lie--some less than others--Donald Trump has fundamentally changed the ground rules by lying in a totally casual, unconcerned manner about things that can easily be proved or disproved, and then attacking the people who call him on those falsehoods. Not even President "Slick Willy" Clinton lied with such casual indifference. This is a moral issue, not just a political one, and as a Christian I believe it matters greatly.
 
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TLK Valentine

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As a specific example: While it may be true that all politicians lie--some less than others--Donald Trump has fundamentally changed the ground rules by lying in a totally casual, unconcerned manner about things that can easily be proved or disproved, and then attacking the people who call him on those falsehoods. Not even President "Slick Willy" Clinton lied with such casual indifference. This is a moral issue, not just a political one, and as a Christian I believe it matters greatly.

Unfortunately, too many American Christians believe that since their place in the next world is guaranteed, they might as well get comfortable in this one... and falling in line beneath Donald, for all his faults, is a means to that end: wealth, influence, and punishment for ones enemies.

That's a bargain for a mere thirty pieces of silver.
 
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Allandavid

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People always have a tendency to focus on whatever conflict is getting the most attention. But it’s still good to step back from time to time and review one’s foundational assumptions and values. For Christians, that means doing constant course corrections to make sure that the Bible, rather than one’s own emotions—or peer pressure—is the motivation for one’s actions.

Consider how Southern Christians defending the institution of slavery prior to the Civil War. In hindsight, their motivation was clearly cultural rather than Biblical. Instead of going to the Bible to see what it really said, they went to the Bible to find passages that proved what they already believed. They managed to find a lot of verses that appeared to be accepting of slavery, but then they completely missed the fact that race-based slavery is never found in the Bible, anywhere. On the contrary, it was perfectly legal for a Hebrew man to own a Hebrew slave. There is no support anywhere for the idea that a black man could be a slave, but a white man could not.

Following up on that fact, it is also true that there is no Biblical justification for racial or ethnic prejudice of any sort. Consider Revelation 7:9-10:

“After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, ‘Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.’”

In this vision the Apostle John sees people from every nation, every ethnic group, and every language worshipping the Lamb (Christ) on an equal footing. There is no hint that in heaven some earthly groups will be superior and some inferior. And even if (purely for the sake of argument) there were distinctions in “worthiness” in heaven, there certainly would be no mistreatment of a “lesser” group by a “greater” one, as Paul says of different members of the Body of Christ here on earth: “On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor.” [1 Corinthians 12:22-23]. God does not show favoritism among His children, and He clearly does not approve Christians doing so, either. So any individual or group that advocates or approves of “white supremacy” is not following the teachings of the Bible.

Much more could be said on that topic, but I will save that for a separate post. All I want to add right now is that the idea that one political party is essentially pro-Christian while the other is anti-Christian is not supported by the Bible. Both parties (not just one of them) hold to some principles that are taught in Scripture, and both parties (not just one of them) hold to some principles that the Bible strongly condemns. Most particularly, members of both parties seem to subscribe to the doctrine of “Love your friends and hate your enemies,” which Jesus very specifically taught against: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven.” [Matthew 5:43-45]

If there is one aspect of modern politics that I particularly dislike, it is the hatred both sides so often display toward each other. It so happens that after many years of voting Republican I now vote Democratic, but God does not allow me to hold any hatred toward Republicans, and any Christian who sincerely believes that he should vote Republican should hold no hatred toward Democrats. No matter which “side” we come down on, we should be showing the world how Christians behave, and Jesus taught that the first and most important thing we should be showing the world is that we Christians love each other [John 13:35, “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”] and we demonstrate our faith by doing good to all, not just our “friends” [Matthew 5:16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.”]

Specific points of political belief may matter, but our fundamental moral behavior matters most of all.

Might want to brush up on your Bible studies with regard to slavery...

44And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have—from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves.”
 
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Evan Jellicoe

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Might want to brush up on your Bible studies with regard to slavery...

44And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have—from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves.”

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. There are many, many passages in the Bible that permit or accept slavery. What is not there is any approval of racially-based slavery, which was the bedrock of the American system. As to the Bible verses that allow slavery (or even actively regulate it, under the Law of Moses), the Southern theologians assumed that if something was permitted by God (or forbidden) in the past, it must be the same today. This is a bad assumption. Polygamy is an obvious example, but there are many others (including slavery).
 
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TLK Valentine

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I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. There are many, many passages in the Bible that permit or accept slavery. What is not there is any approval of racially-based slavery, which was the bedrock of the American system.

Sounds like slavery was acceptable, but the US was simply doing it wrong.

What a comforting thought.

As to the Bible verses that allow slavery (or even actively regulate it, under the Law of Moses), the Southern theologians assumed that if something was permitted by God (or forbidden) in the past, it must be the same today. This is a bad assumption. Polygamy is an obvious example, but there are many others.

One could argue that Jesus specifically rewrote the polygamy laws when he defined marriage as "one man, one woman." Or as Mark Twain once quoted, "No man can serve two masters."

Jesus made no such changes to any of the extensive Bible verbiage regarding slavery.
 
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Evan Jellicoe

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Unfortunately, too many American Christians believe that since their place in the next world is guaranteed, they might as well get comfortable in this one... and falling in line beneath Donald, for all his faults, is a means to that end: wealth, influence, and punishment for ones enemies.

That's a bargain for a mere thirty pieces of silver.
True. But then again, what you describe are those who call themselves Christians, but really aren't. The hypocrites. My bigger concern is with those Christians who really believe that the Bible is true, but seriously misunderstand what it really says. For example, those who in political matters agree with cutting or eliminating government support for the poor because they sincerely think the Bible does not support government getting involved in "charity." The Bible does teach societal care for the poor and needy. But I am more interested in sharing Biblical truth than I am in slamming people who are mistaken about the Bible.
 
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Evan Jellicoe

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Sounds like slavery was acceptable, but the US was simply doing it wrong.

What a comforting thought.

One could argue that Jesus specifically rewrote the polygamy laws when he defined marriage as "one man, one woman." Or as Mark Twain once quoted, "No man can serve two masters."

Jesus made no such changes to any of the extensive Bible verbiage regarding slavery.

No, he didn't. In fact, he encouraged slaves to give good service to their masters. Today that general principal would extend to employees giving good service to their employers. But the Bible never supported any form of double standard; masters (and modern employers) are obligated to treat their servants well. And the social standards for what constitutes treating one's employees well has improved over time. Except among some Christians who believe (mistakenly) that if God approved of a certain thing at a certain time in the past, His view must still be the same today in every respect. That is not the case. Civil laws, and social/cultural norms, can change through time.
 
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TLK Valentine

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True. But then again, what you describe are those who call themselves Christians, but really aren't. The hypocrites.

Careful -- According to forum rules, anyone who identifies as a Christian is one, and it's considered flaming to claim or imply otherwise.

Second, there's no reason a person can't be a Christian and a hypocrite... sadly, the two are anything but mutually exclusive. Hypocrisy is just one of many sins that a Christian can always ask forgiveness for at their leisure.

Third, if they can ask for (and receive) forgiveness, so can Donald. It's not to big a leap to treat him as though he already had -- one can easily overlook the fact that he's utterly unrepentant in exchange for a few shiny baubles.

My bigger concern is with those Christians who really believe that the Bible is true, but seriously misunderstand what it really says.

My bigger concern is with those who seem convinced they know what the Bible (and by extension, God) "really says." But I see your point... After all, ignorance + religion... *shudder*

For example, those who in political matters agree with cutting or eliminating government support for the poor because they sincerely think the Bible does not support government getting involved in "charity." The Bible does teach societal care for the poor and needy.

Furthermore, with the Bible's dated passages about kings and rulers, it's easy to fall into the antiquated mindset that those in Washington (up to and including the president) are our "rulers" deserving of our allegiance. The exact opposite is in fact the case.

But I am more interested in sharing Biblical truth than I am in slamming people who are mistaken about the Bible.

Sadly, often one can't be done without the other -- one must unlearn error before one can learn truth.
 
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TLK Valentine

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No, he didn't. In fact, he encouraged slaves to give good service to their masters.

That hardly counts as a "change" in the rules -- before and after Jesus, slaves have always been encouraged to "give good service" to their masters...

...often with a whip.

Today that general principal would extend to employees giving good service to their employers.

...as well as slaves giving good service to their masters. Nothing has changed.

But the Bible never supported any form of double standard; masters (and modern employers) are obligated to treat their servants well.

Easy on the whip, then.

And the social standards for what constitutes treating one's employees well has improved over time. Except among some Christians who believe (mistakenly) that if God approved of a certain thing at a certain time in the past, His view must still be the same today in every respect. That is not the case. Civil laws, and social/cultural norms, can change through time.

But God does not change -- at least, that's the argument I keep hearing whenever anyone brings up same-sex marriage... a textbook case of civil laws, and social/cultural norms, changing over time.

Don't get me wrong; I agree with you about society changing, and Christians changing with it... but it's a hard sell, to say the least.
 
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Evan Jellicoe

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Don't get me wrong; I agree with you about society changing, and Christians changing with it... but it's a hard sell, to say the least.

Yes, it is. But I want to do what I can, and not just give up because people think it's impossible. I don't think it's impossible, even though the percentages are low. Better to reach a few than none at all.
 
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Except among some Christians who believe (mistakenly) that if God approved of a certain thing at a certain time in the past, His view must still be the same today in every respect. That is not the case. Civil laws, and social/cultural norms, can change through time.

Hmmmm....So, if your god changes his view over time, how would you know...? Where is the New Testament 2.0, wherein slavery is no longer approved?

And, if social/cultural norms can change over time, how do we know that your god still disapproves of, for example, homosexuality...?
 
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Evan Jellicoe

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Hmmmm....So, if your god changes his view over time, how would you know...? Where is the New Testament 2.0, wherein slavery is no longer approved?

And, if social/cultural norms can change over time, how do we know that your god still disapproves of, for example, homosexuality...?

That question has a two-part answer for people who believe that the Bible is divinely-inspired and inerrant, as I do. The first part is easy; the second part is a little harder.

The easy part is when the Bible itself explicitly says that something said earlier is no longer applicable. But it is a mistake to assume that everybody realizes this; not everybody has gone to seminary or Bible college or attended a church where the Bible is well-taught. So some people turn to Leviticus 20:13, which commands the death penalty for homosexual conduct, and say that it would be good if American law had the same penalty. Two problems: first, Leviticus is part of the Law of Moses, which was binding upon ancient Israel but not the Christian Church. The New Testament teaches plainly that the Law of Moses has been done away with. So, no more animal sacrifices, no more prohibition against eating pork (or shrimp, or catfish, or venison. . .), no more death penalty for heterosexual adultery (that’s in Leviticus 20, too), and so on.

The more difficult part is figuring out God’s will when there is no plain and simple command in the New Testament. For example, the leaders of the Reformation in the 1500s decided that the Catholic celebration of holidays, especially Easter and Christmas, was all wrong. So they outlawed Christmas, and that anti-Christmas sentiment was the norm among Protestants until well into the 1800s. Yet the tide gradually changed until in our day most conservative Christians not only celebrate Christmas, they defend it against secular attacks. Many aren’t even aware of the historical debate. (I wrestled with that question when I was a new Christian, and decided to celebrate it.)

The thing to remember is that the most important command given to Christians is to love. First, to love one another, and then to love even one’s enemies. Love is the mark of the Christian. As Paul writes: “If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.” It seems to me that prophecy, knowledge, and faith are pretty important things. To say that without love those things don’t even matter. . .well, it sure makes me want to concentrate on showing love to others. (Oh, and love does not permit forced slavery.)
 
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ArmenianJohn

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This thread was derailed and changed to the topic of "Why does the Bible permit slavery?". Shame. There are forums for these kinds of topics which atheists can start without having to derail a thread in American Politics. As for slavery, while God permits it He does not like it. Same for divorce - He permits it but does not like it. If God didn't permit slavery then our capitalist society that works on the back of de facto slaves would be impermissible to Christians also.
 
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Evan Jellicoe

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This thread was derailed and changed to the topic of "Why does the Bible permit slavery?". Shame. There are forums for these kinds of topics which atheists can start without having to derail a thread in American Politics. As for slavery, while God permits it He does not like it. Same for divorce - He permits it but does not like it. If God didn't permit slavery then our capitalist society that works on the back of de facto slaves would be impermissible to Christians also.

It was headed that way, but I did (and always do) take every opportunity to turn it back to an emphasis on basic Christian virtues. I started voting Democratic in 2016 after a whole lot of serious soul-searching (and Bible-searching). But I reject the idea that the party for whom one votes is a sign of whether or not one is a Christian. As Paul wrote, "Let each person be fully persuaded in their own mind." It's OK to discuss, and even to debate. It is not OK to slam a person who disagrees with me, and is definitely not OK to hate a person for voting the "wrong" way.
 
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