Why do dispensationalists chop up the bible into different ages?

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Christ was before the foundations of the earth, but the crucifixion did not happen till 33ad. So while yes there is one eternal salvation, there were many short term atonements. One was animal sacrifice, and adam and eve were basically saved by their works. One they ate the fruit they were tossed out. But the salvation by works changed to grace based on the weakness of our flesh. But that was not until four thousand years later, moses law and animal sacrifice was initiated as a temprorary atonement till christ would die.
There has never been a time where works eternally saved one soul.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
repenting is not works. Any more than turning from false idols to the living God is considered works.
This is confusing.

What do you see as appropriating God’s Grace in the OT?
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
This is confusing.

What do you see as appropriating God’s Grace in the OT?
well God was gracious and merciful, but grace and truth came with Christ...

John 1:17

so I am not sure how to answer that. Sin was atoned for with the blood of animals in the old testament, that is why they actually had a "day of atonement." But while sacrifice covered sin, it was only enough to allow them entrance to paradise (abrahams bosom), then once they entered paradise they waited for the saviour to be born and die on the cross as was prophecied in genesis. There is yet some who say the gospel was written in the hebrew mazzoroth. Which is like the greek zodiac, but more pure historically, and less paganized. But yes the long term salvation was by grace, but the short term salvation was by works of law. Following the commands and if they failed to, sacrificing to cover their sins at least temporarily till the blood of Christ removed them forever. But the point is this, the short term salvation was not by grace, or faith. Adam was not saved by faith in the garden. Faith was not needed as God was there face to face. Adam eventually accepted Christ in abrahams bosom and was forever saved, but I suppose He could have rejected it as well if he wanted.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
well God was gracious and merciful, but grace and truth came with Christ...

John 1:17

so I am not sure how to answer that. Sin was atoned for with the blood of animals in the old testament, that is why they actually had a "day of atonement." But while sacrifice covered sin, it was only enough to allow them entrance to paradise (abrahams bosom), then once they entered paradise they waited for the saviour to be born and die on the cross as was prophecied in genesis. There is yet some who say the gospel was written in the hebrew mazzoroth. Which is like the greek zodiac, but more pure historically, and less paganized. But yes the long term salvation was by grace, but the short term salvation was by works of law. Following the commands and if they failed to, sacrificing to cover their sins at least temporarily till the blood of Christ removed them forever. But the point is this, the short term salvation was not by grace, or faith. Adam was not saved by faith in the garden. Faith was not needed as God was there face to face. Adam eventually accepted Christ in abrahams bosom and was forever saved, but I suppose He could have rejected it as well if he wanted.
Justification has always been by faith.


Habakkuk 2: NASB

4“Behold, as for the proud one,
His soul is not right within him;
But the righteous will live by his faith.


Romans 4: NASB

1
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7“BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”

In Hebrews we have this about the blood of bulls and goats.

Hebrews 10: NASB

1For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
“SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;

6IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.

7“THEN I SAID, ‘BEHOLD, I HAVE COME
(IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME)
TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.’”

Here’s the clincher I believe.

Hebrews 11: NASB


1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.2For by it the men of old gained approval.

3By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

8By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.9By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE.

13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; 18it was he to whom it was said, “IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED.” 19He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come. 21By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff. 22By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones.

23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. 24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them. 29By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.

32And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection; 36and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. 37They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated38(men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.

39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Justification has always been by faith.


Habakkuk 2: NASB

4“Behold, as for the proud one,
His soul is not right within him;
But the righteous will live by his faith.


Romans 4: NASB

1
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7“BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”

In Hebrews we have this about the blood of bulls and goats.

Hebrews 10: NASB

1For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
“SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;

6IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.

7“THEN I SAID, ‘BEHOLD, I HAVE COME
(IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME)
TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.’”
Here’s the clincher I believe.

Hebrews 11: NASB


1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.2For by it the men of old gained approval.

3By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

8By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.9By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE.

13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; 18it was he to whom it was said, “IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED.” 19He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come. 21By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff. 22By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones.

23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. 24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them. 29By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.

32And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection; 36and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. 37They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated38(men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.

39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.
Abraham was justified by faith, but then in james it straight out says "abraham was justified by works" James 2:21. So it contradicts. In my view they are both true, in your view James 2:21 contradicts Romans 4:1-2. In my view one came after the other, in your view you have a bible contradiction. So there is that issue. Lets talk about that. Furthermore yes, long term eternal salvation IS currently by faith, but it was not always that way. For instance prior to Jesus dying, animals had to be sacrificed to litarally atone for sin, again that is why they had a "day of atonement." I will provide a long passage I read today lower on that. They were allowed the opportunity to receive christ when he decended into hell to preach to those in paradise, but that was later.

Numbers 15:22‭-26
‘If you sin unintentionally, and do not observe all these commandments which the Lord has spoken to Moses— all that the Lord has commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day the Lord gave commandment and onward throughout your generations— then it will be, if it is unintentionally committed, without the knowledge of the congregation, that the whole congregation shall offer one young bull as a burnt offering, as a sweet aroma to the Lord , with its grain offering and its drink offering, according to the ordinance, and one kid of the goats as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement for the whole congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them, for it was unintentional; they shall bring their offering, an offering made by fire to the Lord , and their sin offering before the Lord , for their unintended sin. It shall be forgiven the whole congregation of the children of Israel and the stranger who dwells among them, because all the people did it unintentionally.
Numbers 15:22‭-26

again I want you to see the words "atonement, and forgiven"
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Abraham was justified by faith, but then in james it straight out says "abraham was justified by works" James 2:21. So it contradicts. In my view they are both true, in your view James 2:21 contradicts Romans 4:1-2. In my view one came after the other, in your view you have a bible contradiction. So there is that issue. Lets talk about that.
There are no contradictions other than the one you originally created and continue to push. Saved by Grace through faith has always been. Before, now and forevermore.

I really don’t know why people love to create a needless dichotomy between faith and works and Paul vs James.

Here’s why:

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Verses 8-10 are seamless, consistent and cannot be separated.



Furthermore yes, long term eternal salvation IS currently by faith, but it was not always that way. For instance prior to Jesus dying, animals had to be sacrificed to litarally atone for sin, again that is why they had a "day of atonement." I will provide a long passage I read today lower on that. They were allowed the opportunity to receive christ when he decended into hell to preach to those in paradise, but that was later.
I showed you Holy Writ that it has always been by faith and those before the cross were looking forward to a better city.

Once again:


Hebrews 10: NASB

1For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
“SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;

6IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.

7“THEN I SAID, ‘BEHOLD, I HAVE COME
(IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME)
TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.’”
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
There are no contradictions other than the one you originally created and continue to push. Saved by Grace through faith has always been. Before, now and forevermore.

I really don’t know why people love to create a needless dichotomy between faith and works and Paul vs James.

Here’s why:

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Verses 8-10 are seamless, consistent and cannot be separated.




I showed you Holy Writ that it has always been by faith and those before the cross were looking forward to a better city.

Once again:


Hebrews 10: NASB

1For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
“SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;

6IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.

7“THEN I SAID, ‘BEHOLD, I HAVE COME
(IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME)
TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.’”
well we can agree to disagree. It's impossible to be saved by faith in someone who was not even born till after 1 A.D. So I guess I don't adhere to your view. I already revealed that there is a direct contradiction in your view between two verses when taken literally (James 2:21 contradicts Romans 4:1-2), so you must either explain how both can be simultaneously true at the same time while contradicting each other or you must quote how one is to not be taken literally by using commentaries and greek study tools, at the very minimal. But needless to say, my point stands unless you can reconcile the two contradictory verses, my view already has an answer for that. So thank you and take care. (by the way I am not debating faith and works, I already accepted the current dispensation of grace).
 
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
my point is this if we don't turn from sin at salvation then repentance is not accomplished.

So as not to misunderstand you, are you saying that a person is required to acknowledge each and every sin and turn from it (that is what you believe), that they have committed before they can get saved?
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So as not to misunderstand you, are you saying that a person is required to acknowledge each and every sin and turn from it (that is what you believe), that they have committed before they can get saved?
Yes repentance is a mental state. we are either in the mental state of repentance, living in victory. Or we are living to please the flesh and sinning and proud of sin.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yes repentance is a mental state. we are either in the mental state of repentance, living in victory. Or we are living to please the flesh and sinning and proud of sin.

Yes. For in order to change our behavior, we must first change our thinking. And that is the biblical definition of repentance metanoia = change of thinking. Even God calls for that!

Romans 12:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

You cannot live right until you know what right living is! Repentance is just the start of the process of transforming our lives!

Why do you still wish to protest when I agree with you ?
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Yes. For in order to change our behavior, we must first change our thinking. And that is the biblical definition of repentance metanoia = change of thinking. Even God calls for that!

Romans 12:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

You cannot live right until you know what right living is! Repentance is just the start of the process of transforming our lives!

Why do you still wish to protest when I agree with you ?
Ok so then let's settle this. Is a proud homosexual saved or not saved? They have all the theology and believe in the finished work of Christ they simply love homosexuality too. If you believe in free grace he must be saved. Because he has changed his mind toward Christ and now believes. But if you believe repentance is more than intellectual then it's surrendering to Christ. The longer I follow Jesus, the more I realize that salvation is a one time surrender, but sanctification is a moment by moment surrender.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Ok so then let's settle this. Is a proud homosexual saved or not saved? They have all the theology and believe in the finished work of Christ they simply love homosexuality too. If you believe in free grace he must be saved. Because he has changed his mind toward Christ and now believes. But if you believe repentance is more than intellectual then it's surrendering to Christ. The longer I follow Jesus, the more I realize that salvation is a one time surrender, but sanctification is a moment by moment surrender.

I can only answer this way.

He either is saved or never was saved to begin with and all that knowledge never converted to faith.

Those are the options the bible gives so those are the options I can only give. If one is saved (and only God knows with absolute certainty, and we when sin is not blocking our fellowship), then they are saved forever and are acting as disobedient children. We only look from the outside and we are incapapble of judging the heart!

If unsaved- then they left becuase religion always wears off and they show it was just religion and not a relatiosnhip.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
He is either saved or was never saved
i appreciate your willingness to answer, but it seems your speaking out of both sides of your mouth (he is either saved or was never saved). And that means that you don't have the answer to the question or do not know, but with scripture we are told the answer to that very question. And Lordship salvation provides an answer that Free grace does not have. That is my point. So thanks for the debate. I feel this sufficiently refutes free grace. Now I am not saying we are not saved by grace, but I disagree with free grace theology as put out by dallas theological and others of the "free grace camp."
 
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
i appreciate your willingness to answer, but it seems your speaking out of both sides of your mouth (he is either saved or was never saved). And that means that you don't have the answer to the question or do not know, but with scripture we are told the answer to that very question. And Lordship salvation provides an answer that Free grace does not have. That is my point. So thanks for the debate. I feel this sufficiently refutes free grace. Now I am not saying we are not saved by grace, but I disagree with free grace theology as put out by dallas theological and others of the "free grace camp."

How can I hope to have an answer to a question I cannot answer?

Only God knows that state of salvation of any individual! We are forbidden to even make those kind of jusdgments even if it is just mentally. A person who sins is either a disobedient child of God or an unsaved person- It is not fo ryou , me or anyone else to decide of they are saved or not- That is solely Gopds business.

And sorry Grace is free!

Romans 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

AND:

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Grace is free to us, because Jesus paid the price!!! All we need do is accept it and it will do the inner work in us!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,774
1,309
sg
✟214,848.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Abraham was justified by faith, but then in james it straight out says "abraham was justified by works" James 2:21. So it contradicts. In my view they are both true, in your view James 2:21 contradicts Romans 4:1-2. In my view one came after the other, in your view you have a bible contradiction. So there is that issue. Lets talk about that. Furthermore yes, long term eternal salvation IS currently by faith, but it was not always that way. For instance prior to Jesus dying, animals had to be sacrificed to litarally atone for sin, again that is why they had a "day of atonement." I will provide a long passage I read today lower on that. They were allowed the opportunity to receive christ when he decended into hell to preach to those in paradise, but that was later.

Numbers 15:22‭-26
‘If you sin unintentionally, and do not observe all these commandments which the Lord has spoken to Moses— all that the Lord has commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day the Lord gave commandment and onward throughout your generations— then it will be, if it is unintentionally committed, without the knowledge of the congregation, that the whole congregation shall offer one young bull as a burnt offering, as a sweet aroma to the Lord , with its grain offering and its drink offering, according to the ordinance, and one kid of the goats as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement for the whole congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them, for it was unintentional; they shall bring their offering, an offering made by fire to the Lord , and their sin offering before the Lord , for their unintended sin. It shall be forgiven the whole congregation of the children of Israel and the stranger who dwells among them, because all the people did it unintentionally.
Numbers 15:22‭-26

again I want you to see the words "atonement, and forgiven"

You are correct, but non-dispensationalists will not accept your point.

It has always been justification by faith, but faith requires you to obey what God commanded you to do. Before Christ, God commanded the Jews to circumcise themselves, keep the Law and offer an animal sacrifice every time they sin.

If you obey God's instructions before Christ died on the cross, you are showing your faith in God and you are justified because of that.

But after the cross, more precisely after Paul was raised, God now commands us to cease from all works and trust in Jesus's finished work on the cross. Only at that time can there be a faith "apart from works".

So when we obey what he commanded, he sees that as faith and will justify us because of that.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You are correct, but non-dispensationalists will not accept your point.

It has always been justification by faith, but faith requires you to obey what God commanded you to do. Before Christ, God commanded the Jews to circumcise themselves, keep the Law and offer an animal sacrifice every time they sin.

If you obey God's instructions before Christ died on the cross, you are showing your faith in God and you are justified because of that.

But after the cross, more precisely after Paul was raised, God now commands us to cease from all works and trust in Jesus's finished work on the cross. Only at that time can there be a faith "apart from works".

So when we obey what he commanded, he sees that as faith and will justify us because of that.
I agree that there appears to be different salvations and most dispensationalists will say that there isn't. They will say the Act of faith changed but salvation by faith never changed. However that is not Biblical, there is no verse in the old testament that says if you believe in God, but didn't follow Him that you were saved. I do agree that obedience without faith is useless religion, but that does not remove us from the fact that short term salvation has changed in all dispensations. Long term salvation is ultimately faith in Christ.
 
Last edited:
  • Friendly
Reactions: Guojing
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,774
1,309
sg
✟214,848.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I agree that there appears to be different salvations and most dispensationalists will say that there isn't. They will say the Act of faith changed but salvation but faith never changed. However that is not Biblical, there is no verse in the old testament that says if you believe in God, but didn't follow Him that you were saved. I do agree that obedience without faith is useless religion, but that does not remove us from the fact that short term salvation has changed in all dispensations. Long term salvation is ultimately faith in Christ.

I supposed you did not learn the basis of mid acts dispensationalism from Cornelius R Stam?
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I supposed you did not learn the basis of mid acts dispensationalism from Cornelius R Stam?
I heard all sorts of hyper style dispensationalism out there. I typically am more of a soft dispensationalist. Most dispensationalists are free grace, and OSAS. I am neither. I simply believe there are approximately 3 or 4 dispensations of noteworthiness, namely because the short term salvation changes. You have eden, then you have moses law, then you have the age of grace, then you have the millenium, which I argue is a continuation of the age of grace, it's just that for the gentiles in blessing they will be forced to adhere to a biblical civil law.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,774
1,309
sg
✟214,848.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I heard all sorts of hyper style dispensationalism out there. I typically am more of a soft dispensationalist. Most dispensationalists are free grace, and OSAS. I am neither. I simply believe there are approximately 3 or 4 dispensations of noteworthiness, namely because the short term salvation changes. You have eden, then you have moses law, then you have the age of grace, then you have the millenium, which I argue is a continuation of the age of grace, it's just that for the gentiles in blessing they will be forced to adhere to a biblical civil law.

Actually there are 3 categories of dispensationalists that are present today. You are either Acts 2, mid Acts or Acts 28.

Which would you consider yourself to be under? Who did you learn your dispensationalism from?
 
Upvote 0