Ok. Question: in the Bible Jesus speaks in parables; what general statement does Evolution make?

OldWiseGuy

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Oh, here we go with that good old standby, "If you read the Bible, you'd be a believer!"

Newsflash: I have read the Bible, and I found it to be rather boring and certainly not the font of spiritual enlightenment you and so many others believe it is.

Why is it that so many believers can't comprehend that others can read the Bible and NOT get the same results they did?



That seems rather circular. I have to believe in order to get what I need in order to believe.

Sounds to me like it's just saying that once I believe, I'll be willing to embrace anything that supports my preconceived notions, so I'll latch onto the flimsiest things to retain my beliefs while going out of my way to dismiss even the strongest evidence that contradicts them.

Sorry, but I have more intellectual integrity than that.

Most of the bible is easily understood by anyone. But it takes the Holy Spirit indwelling to really "get it".

I said nothing of the sort. You don't have to believe a word. Many study evolution and pass the course...and don't believe a word of it.

Intellectual integrity doesn't translate to moral integrity (see my many posts concerning our dirty lakes).
 
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Kylie

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Actually we do follow many of God's laws, appropriating them as our own creation. The way to test whether they originated with God is to ask yourself honestly if you would institute such laws for yourself. I don't think that mankind would inflict themselves with such laws. We prefer to be free to do whatever we want and are willing to pay whatever consequences that brings.

Please give me an example of a law that is in effect now, which you claim would benefit mankind, explain how it would provide such benefit mankind, and explain why I would not want to institute such a law for myself.
 
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Kylie

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Most of the bible is easily understood by anyone. But it takes the Holy Spirit indwelling to really "get it".

I said nothing of the sort. You don't have to believe a word. Many study evolution and pass the course...and don't believe a word of it.

So how would I get the answers you think I need if I don't believe a word of the Bible?

This really seems like you just want me to read the advertising material in the desperate hope of making a sale...
 
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OldWiseGuy

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So how would I get the answers you think I need if I don't believe a word of the Bible?

This really seems like you just want me to read the advertising material in the desperate hope of making a sale...

That's my answer and I'm sticking to it. ;)
 
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Ophiolite

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Then this whole conversation has been a waste of my time, since I was specifically asking why OWG believed that mankind would benefit from keeping God's laws.

If you are telling me now that they aren't even God's laws at all, then I would suggest that you've missed OWG's point. He's been saying all along that we should follow God's laws, and when I asked him which laws they were, he started talking about how the laws changed. Now you are saying that you're interpretation is that they aren't God's laws at all, so obviously you and OWG aren't on the same page here.
I am sorry you feel you have wasted your time.
1. I am on exactly the same page as OWG in regard to the difference between laws that prohibit and laws that encourage/guide.
2. You do not think those differences are important and holding that viewpoint is as an obstacle to your appreciating OGW's position. I was attempting to guide you towards an understanding of that.
 
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Ophiolite

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Really I would like to marry them in reverse order: that is, culturally affect my biology - be more perceptive, quicker to follow, that sort of thing.
You can't. You are proposing a Lamarkian version of evolution in which changes in an individual brought about by the environment can change the next generation. That doesn't work. We have known that for more than a century.
 
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Gottservant

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The thing is Jesus isn't going to let you change His context, unless you can show it will benefit his subtext - only then you would say "He should have known the context was going to change" -- its a lose lose situation.

I don't think you honour the Evolution that is already there, that's the problem - like if because of Evolution's discovery, you were able to improve the life prospects of every living thing on Earth: then I would say "yes, it is worthwhile believing in Evolution" the problem is, it forecloses on anything but less suffering - not saying how, why or where - and does not embrace suffering as a result at all (well if God allows suffering, for the sake of character, who are you to say "we'll do it without You!"?).

I suppose there is some sense in that God made a way where there was no way - like if I try to "quantify suffering" I immediately know, I have steered away from science to the purely conceptual and am not taking advantage of the word, as it stands. That is a lesson worth learning! There is no mathematical extension of life, that needs to calculate the weight of its own ignorance or suffering (or ineptitude for that matter).

The development of Evolution, then, has to address at what loss it is running, if it attempts the purely conceptual, under pretensions of doing greater than God would presuppose would matter. This is basically why I have suffered my entire life, with word salad: because I keep being told that Evolution is purely conceptual - when if that is the case, it is a purely statistical exercise, with a subtext of one degree of power - a "pretext" (and indeed where is the power of that pretext, coming from?).

It is the definition of madness, to suggest that the infinite parallel of a statistical analysis somehow gives life? Creation, yes, we can see that differing responses create differing outcomes - but a pretext adding incentive to the same creations over and over again, is somehow powerful? There is no power, there!

I think that in the end, what matters, is your "personal Evolution" - that one day you will cast off your old Evolution and embrace a new one, with only as much of the past persecutions as are truly necessary. That is scriptural: the word says we lose nothing for God, without gaining, even with persecutions, even more. The more perfectly we can understand this, the more we can drive a wedge between science and philosophy (one that lesser philosophy will have to accept).
 
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Gottservant

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You can't. You are proposing a Lamarkian version of evolution in which changes in an individual brought about by the environment can change the next generation. That doesn't work. We have known that for more than a century.

A selfish Lamarkianism has been determined not to work, how about a selfless one?

One where you attempt to change, for the sake of that which is coming after?

Didn't they do all sorts of tests during the potato famine in Ireland, or something?
 
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Ophiolite

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A selfish Lamarkianism has been determined not to work, how about a selfless one?

One where you attempt to change, for the sake of that which is coming after?

Didn't they do all sorts of tests during the potato famine in Ireland, or something?
No. No. No. Not possible. No. No way. No. Ludicrous. No. Nonsensical. No. No. No. Nonsense. No.

Is that clear now?
 
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Gottservant

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No. No. No. Not possible. No. No way. No. Ludicrous. No. Nonsensical. No. No. No. Nonsense. No.

Is that clear now?

You haven't substantiated your objection, but merely stated it.

The Bible says "teach a child in the way that he should go, and when he is old he shall not depart from it"

That's a proverbial shaping of Evolution, isn't it?

I mean the nuance of a child's instinct can be shaped, is what its saying?
 
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Kylie

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I am sorry you feel you have wasted your time.
1. I am on exactly the same page as OWG in regard to the difference between laws that prohibit and laws that encourage/guide.
2. You do not think those differences are important and holding that viewpoint is as an obstacle to your appreciating OGW's position. I was attempting to guide you towards an understanding of that.

I did say that there was a difference, however I said there was not a FUNCTIONAL difference, as the end result is the same. I freely agreed that the attitude of the person is different in each case, didn't I?

Still, we have been wasting time, since my question about why mankind would be benefited by following these laws from God has not been answered, and neither has my question about how we can know which laws actually apply.
 
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Kylie

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You haven't substantiated your objection, but merely stated it.

We've tried to explain our objections regarding your repeated misunderstanding of evolution, but you don't seem to listen.

The Bible says "teach a child in the way that he should go, and when he is old he shall not depart from it"

That's a proverbial shaping of Evolution, isn't it?

I mean the nuance of a child's instinct can be shaped, is what its saying?

No, that is not evolution. As you have been told many times, and at least once today by me, individuals do not evolve!
 
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Gottservant

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The proposition for me, is that:

subtext necessarily informs context, where pretext changes (in principle).

It's not a theoretical criticism, therefore: but a sub-philosophical one - what do you give instead of "subtext"? Until such time as your audience is deemed worthy?

Or is being worthy (ultimately, of God) somehow irrelevant?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Actually we do follow many of God's laws, appropriating them as our own creation. The way to test whether they originated with God is to ask yourself honestly if you would institute such laws for yourself. I don't think that mankind would inflict themselves with such laws. We prefer to be free to do whatever we want and are willing to pay whatever consequences that brings.
Kant's 'Categorical Imperative', based on what he calls pure practical reason, seems to me to have that principle at heart. The key statement is, "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law".

The reasoning (crudely simplified) is that moral maxims must apply to all, and we have a 'perfect' duty not to act by maxims that result in logical contradictions when we attempt to universalize them. So, for example, stealing would not be compatible with the CI, because when universalized, i.e. if everyone steals, then the idea of personal property no longer applies, and so stealing itself becomes meaningless.

There's a lot more to it than that, but it's an example of pure reasoning being used to establish moral maxims that would not necessarily coincide with your own desires to act. This represents just one aspect (deontology) of moral philosophy concerning ethical theories of action based on reason (rather than appeals to the supernatural).

So I don't think your test is viable, except when the laws involved are clearly pointless or nonsensical, such as the first four of the traditional ten commandments.
 
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Ophiolite

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I did say that there was a difference, however I said there was not a FUNCTIONAL difference, as the end result is the same. I freely agreed that the attitude of the person is different in each case, didn't I?

Still, we have been wasting time, since my question about why mankind would be benefited by following these laws from God has not been answered, and neither has my question about how we can know which laws actually apply.
I am not clear how you are defining functional. What is done may be the same, the end result is not. I've made that point multiple times now and you continue to deny it. You deny that the impact on the psyche of the "giver" of a well intentioned act is different when the same action is performed out of selfishness.

I accept that I have been wasting your time. (A well intentioned act with a bad result.) I've already apologised for that. I haven't been wasting my time. I found the discussion useful to me in unexpected ways.
 
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Ophiolite

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You haven't substantiated your objection, but merely stated it.
My objection has been substantiated by multiple members in, multiple posts, in multiple threads, but you refuse to listen, or are incapable of listening.

A selfish Lamarkianism has been determined not to work, how about a selfless one?
That is a dumb idea; it is a ludicrous idea. Lamarkianism does not work. There is no such thing as a selfish Lamarkianism, or a selfless one. Lamarkiansim is a mechanical, impersonal process in which selfishness and selflessness have no part to play. This has been long and clearly established.

There is nothing you can do through your behaviour or choice of your environment to alter the genetic character of your offspring in a specific direction. That is why your idea is stupid, foolish, nonsensical and ridiculous.

The Bible says "teach a child in the way that he should go, and when he is old he shall not depart from it"
That's a proverbial shaping of Evolution, isn't it?
I mean the nuance of a child's instinct can be shaped, is what its saying?
That is cultural evolution not biological evolution. You have been repeatedly told that these are wholly different things. They really ought to identified through the use of completely different words, but instead we use different phrases: cultural evolution and biological, or genetic evolution. Why are you unable to grasp this simple concept?

Sure, you can change your child's attitudes, behaviours and beliefs to a great extent, by what ideas, knowledge, attitudes, behaviours and beliefs you expose them to, but that has nothing to do with biological evolution. When are you going to understand and accept that?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Kant's 'Categorical Imperative', based on what he calls pure practical reason, seems to me to have that principle at heart. The key statement is, "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law".

The reasoning (crudely simplified) is that moral maxims must apply to all, and we have a 'perfect' duty not to act by maxims that result in logical contradictions when we attempt to universalize them. So, for example, stealing would not be compatible with the CI, because when universalized, i.e. if everyone steals, then the idea of personal property no longer applies, and so stealing itself becomes meaningless.

There's a lot more to it than that, but it's an example of pure reasoning being used to establish moral maxims that would not necessarily coincide with your own desires to act. This represents just one aspect (deontology) of moral philosophy concerning ethical theories of action based on reason (rather than appeals to the supernatural).

So I don't think your test is viable, except when the laws involved are clearly pointless or nonsensical, such as the first four of the traditional ten commandments.

I don't think many people have ever heard of Kant's 'Categorical Imperative' (which sounds like navel gazing to me), much less think in philosophical terms about anything.

The first four commands are hardly understood by the church, much less the unbeliever.
 
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