Regeneration before or after saving faith

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
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Jesus said belief was itself a work. If we can't be saved by works, then we can't be saved. Peter on the day of Pentecost when asked, "what must we do?" commanded repentance and baptism.
This sounds like a commentary.
 
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Gup20

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This isn't taught in scripture. You literally want to divorce things that God said were joined. Water and spirit, belief and baptism. You'll have to work that out with God.
You and I should have a conversation about what "literal" and "figurative" means.
 
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Yesha

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Gup, thank you for your detailed reply!

I call your attention this:

[Gen 3:22 NASB] 22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

In the verse you give from Romans 8, [reference inserted for clarity]

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. – Romans 8:5-8

we see just prior (in red above) that we can set our minds on the things of the spirit for a better experience. The following verse doesn't exclude the ability to set our minds on good, it just says those who's mind set is on the flesh are not able to set their minds on good. But it just got done saying (twice) that those who set their minds on the things of the spirit are able to do good.

Gup, I think that Paul intends the audience to understand the fleshly man as the man fallen in Adam and the Spirit-filled man as the man made alive in Christ. The text does not say that we can choose to live according to the Spirit while we are living according to the flesh. It does state that those who live according to the flesh and therefore set their minds on the things of the flesh lack the capacity to submit to God’s law. The question then is: Can the natural man choose to not live according to the flesh, but rather to live according to the Spirit? What is that which makes us alive according to the Spirit? Is it man according to his fallen will or God according to his divine will? I believe that Paul provides the answer in his opening to chapter 8.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. – Romans 8:1-4 (ESV)

Here he declares no condemnation for the saints. How so? By the active work of the triune God: the Father by sending the Son to redeem his people from sin and death, the Son by fulfilling the righteousness that we cannot fulfill, and the Spirit by applying the work of the Son to set us free unto life. What follows in verses 5-8 contrasts the futility of the man in the flesh with the victory, through Christ, of the man in the Spirit. Paul distinguishes those who “live according to the flesh” from those who “live according to the Spirit”.

Stated concisely and in parallel:

Living according to the flesh (v5a) > setting the mind on the things of the flesh (v5a) > death (v6a), hostility toward God (v7a), inability to submit to God’s law (v7b), inability to please God (v8)

Living according to the Spirit (v5b) > setting the mind on the things of the Spirit (v5b) > life and peace (v6b)

I think that Paul’s statements are descriptive of the will of fallen, unregenerate man being in bondage to the law of sin and death, which renders him incapable of submitting to the divine will. It is only by the work of the triune God that we are liberated from this bondage and made alive to God through the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

Combine this with what Romans 2 says:

[Rom 2:14-15 NASB] 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

So the unbeliever is able to know good, and is able to set their minds on good, and have God's good law on their heart. Sounds like men are not as depraved as is suspected. Additionally, Able was never made righteous, nor regenerated, yet unlike Cain his faithful offering was pleasing to God.

I understand Paul not to be referring to the ability of the natural man to set his mind on good in the sense of willfully submitting himself to the law of God. Rather, I believe the theme of Romans 1-3:19 is on the universal condemnation of man regardless of being Jew or Gentile. When Paul speaks of the Gentiles showing that the work of the law is written in their hearts by instinctively doing the things of the law, he is not saying that man has the ability to fulfill the law or submit to it out of love for God. He is saying that man has been imbued with a moral constitution which he cannot avoid. So even if the Gentiles did not receive the revealed law of God as in the Decalogue, they are rendered without excuse on the day of judgment according to the testimony of conscience.

But the Bible has a whole chapter that deals with Calvinism in a direct way. It is all but ignored.

[Deu 30:1, 6, 11-15, 19 NASB] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. ... 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

What does this passage say? 3 times it tells us life and death are a choice God sets before man (and tells us to choose). It says this command is not too difficult for us, nor out of our reach (there goes Total Depravity). It says this decision is NOT made in heaven. It even goes so far as to say we don't need anyone to go get it for us or hear it for us (another common claim of Calvinists).

The only argument Calvinists can make against this passage is that it is part of the law and doesn't refer to salvation by faith (only applies to Israel). But thankfully, Paul sets the record straight:

[Rom 10:5-11 NASB] 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Here we see Paul quote heavily from Deuteronomy 30 and say "the righteousness based on faith says it like this." Paul says DONT EVEN SAY in your heart that man is too depraved to believe for himself!! A direct command from Paul not to believe in the ideals of calvinism.

The next time you hear a calvinist or reformed theologian say you need the Holy Spirit to enable you to hear the gospel, think of Deuteronomy 30 and Romans 10 where it says DO NOT EVEN SAY that in your heart! It is not too difficult for us to make the choice, the choice is not out of our reach. It is near to us.

Finally, have a look at Deuteronomy 30:19. This is the Bible's statement on synergism vs monergism.

19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

"I call Heaven (God) and earth (man) to witness..." This mirrors what Paul says in Romans 8:

[Rom 8:16 NASB] 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Here we see that The Spirit (Heaven) and our spirit (earth) testifies (bares witness) to the choice we make for blessing or cursing, life or death.

It would take quite some time to walk through these passages, as admittedly I am less familiar with them than others. In its broader context, Deuteronomy 30 is set in covenantal language which begins in chapter 29. Moses is enjoining the people to keep the words of the covenant lest they be cursed. But notice Moses’ words early in chapter 29 when he states that

the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear. – Deuteronomy 29:4 (ESV)

Left in this state the Israelites would be utterly hopeless. However, in the beginning of chapter 30 we see that the Lord promises to enable his covenant people to love him, and thereby obey him, in order to receive the promises.

And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. – Deuteronomy 30:6 (ESV)

This I believe is a pivotal verse for understanding the remaining text, in which Moses exhorts the people to choose life.

“See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.” – Deuteronomy 30:15-20 (ESV)

If choosing life is entwined with loving the Lord, and loving the Lord is consequent to God’s circumcising the heart, then it seems to follow that both the command of God and the ability to keep that command are supplied according to his grace. I believe that Paul's reference to Deuteronomy 30:1-6 in Romans 10:5-10 shows us that the message of salvation was proclaimed to the Israelites by the Word of Faith being brought near to them, and this by divine grace rather than by the efforts of men (e.g., ascending, descending). Paul then applies that concept to the saints in Rome, explaining to them that salvation is through faith in Christ and that the means of God's redeeming work is the proclamation of the Gospel (v14).

I know there is a lot here. I apologize if I missed some of your points, but I hope this fleshes out some of my previous arguments. :)
 
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Gup20

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It would take quite some time to walk through these passages, as admittedly I am less familiar with them than others. In its broader context, Deuteronomy 30 is set in covenantal language which begins in chapter 29. Moses is enjoining the people to keep the words of the covenant lest they be cursed. But notice Moses’ words early in chapter 29 when he states that

the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear. – Deuteronomy 29:4 (ESV)

Left in this state the Israelites would be utterly hopeless. However, in the beginning of chapter 30 we see that the Lord promises to enable his covenant people to love him, and thereby obey him, in order to receive the promises.

And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. – Deuteronomy 30:6 (ESV)

This I believe is a pivotal verse for understanding the remaining text, in which Moses exhorts the people to choose life.

“See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.” – Deuteronomy 30:15-20 (ESV)

If choosing life is entwined with loving the Lord, and loving the Lord is consequent to God’s circumcising the heart, then it seems to follow that both the command of God and the ability to keep that command are supplied according to his grace. I believe that Paul's reference to Deuteronomy 30:1-6 in Romans 10:5-10 shows us that the message of salvation was proclaimed to the Israelites by the Word of Faith being brought near to them, and this by divine grace rather than by the efforts of men (e.g., ascending, descending). Paul then applies that concept to the saints in Rome, explaining to them that salvation is through faith in Christ and that the means of God's redeeming work is the proclamation of the Gospel (v14).

I know there is a lot here. I apologize if I missed some of your points, but I hope this fleshes out some of my previous arguments. :)
I agree with your statement that God circumcising their heart is the pivotal verse for understanding Deuteronomy 30.

Circumcision is the foreshadow or placeholder for regeneration or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The quickening to life of the spirit. The righteous, living inner-man surrounded by dead and sinful outer flesh is an apt word picture for circumcision.

[Rom 2:28-29 NASB] 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

[Rom 4:9-13 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.​

So we see that for Abraham, circumcision was the seal of the righteousness of faith. Since Christ and the Holy Spirit have come, the Holy Spirit now takes His rightful place as the seal of the righteousness of faith. The pattern of Abraham remains consistent. The sequence is faith, then righteousness, then the Holy Spirit (circumcision of the heart). For Abraham was made righteous for his faith while uncircumcised, or before regeneration.
 
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Yesha

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For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

I like the way you're formatting this. Makes it easy to respond to.

So, I do not read this as God causing us to do anything but here is saying that what we've been given, what we should do are two things. Believe and suffer for his sake. This means that we give up that which pleased us, sometimes put up with persecution and obey his commands.

And in this case our "should" is "for the sake of Christ." The word "grant" there can also be translated "given." Commands are given. Responsibilities are given. This isn't magic power he's talking about but the "perfect law of liberty." It's up to us to obey it.

Al, thanks for being careful with the text! I think you make an astute observation; however, I believe that your interpretation is mistaken. The sense of “should” in Philippians 1:29 is not in this context indicating obligation, rather purpose. This can be seen if you consider the use of the word “that” earlier on.

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, - Philippians 1:29 (ESV)

In other words, the “should” which follows the “that” explains the purpose of the granting action of God, namely, that it is done on behalf of the Son. Perhaps it would be helpful to see how other translations render this verse.

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, - ESV

For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, - NASB

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; - KJV

For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, - NKJV

For it has been granted to you on Christ’s behalf not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him, - CSB

because to you has been graciously granted on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer on behalf of him, - LEB

And the elect, the chosen, are those who obey the gospel call. They are not pre-selected outside of God's foreknowledge.

Al, while I agree that all the elect ultimately obey the gospel call, I do not think that they are elect because they obey. I believe that God set apart a people for himself according to his gracious choice, which is expressed by his foreknowing them (Romans 8:29). If you mean by “foreknowledge” that God knows who will positively respond to the Gospel in time and that these he elects and predestines to be conformed to the image of his Son, I would have to disagree in that this reverses the order of what I think the Scriptures teach. I think the Scriptures tell us that God chose his people before the foundation of the world and that he moves upon them in time, as he sees fit, to reconcile them to himself.

Here's where I think we may disagree. You say that those who are "fallen in Adam" are born that way right? I don't believe we're born that way. Even this passage is letting us know that to set one's mind on the flesh is not a result of a man's birth condition but the choices he makes to set his own mind on the flesh and live according to the flesh. A mind set on the flesh - a man's own rules and desires - cannot submit itself to God because the man in control of that mind has chosen himself as king rather than God.

Al, when you say that you “don’t believe we’re born that way” in response to the quotation of Romans 8:5-8, are you saying that you do not believe that man is born incapacitated by sin to submit to the law of God? King David seemed to think that sin is with fallen humanity from our very conception (Psalm 51:5). If so, the idea of radical corruption is based in Scriptural truth and we need to consider how this sin nature effects our desires and our will. I think Ephesians gives light to this.

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. – Ephesians 2:1-3 (ESV)

Paul states that we were children of wrath “by nature”, suggesting the corruption of sin extends to the very core of our being. However, I do not want to misrepresent you so I may need your help to clarify this.

Of course. It's impossible not to. So wouldn't it be weird if faith was something God supplied or withheld arbitrarily?

I agree with you that faith pleases God. Yet I take difference to your interpretation in that I do not believe that God grants faith arbitrarily. As faith is a gift from God, it is wholly according to his will as to whom he dispenses it. The reason why God gives his grace to some and demonstrates his wrath on others is to demonstrate his glory as Paul declares.

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— Romans 9:22-23 (ESV)

Paul gives us further insight to God’s redemptive will in his opening statements to the Ephesians.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. – Ephesians 1:3-14 (ESV)

In other words, God predestined the saints according to the council of his will, free of contingencies outside of himself, and that being purposed to the praise of his glory!

The word repent, is a turning of the mind from one idea to another. In this case, sin. People are saved because they, just as Paul describes is necessary for us to do, renew our minds and turn to God as our Lord rather than our flesh. Obeying the flesh produces sin. Obeying God produces righteousness. The righteousness that he has defined, not that we have defined for ourselves.

Al, I appreciate your definition of repentance. I agree with you that it is requisite for salvation. However, the Scriptures indicate that repentance is a not only a command, but a gift from God, much as faith.

But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. – Acts 5:31 (ESV)

When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” – Acts 11:18 (ESV)

And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. – 2 Timothy 2:24-26 (ESV)

I hope not to be unfair to the context of these passages, but they seem to me to indicate that repentance itself is a gracious work of God.

The faith - the gospel is a gift from God. Our faith or belief, is a commandment given by God. They aren't the same thing. The faith we are to demonstrate is not the same as the system of faith that we are to obey.

The crux of the matter is that God can both command of us what we cannot do and provide the means to fulfill his command! This is the tension seen throughout Scripture: that God in certain places commands men to repent and believe, yet in other places indicates that so doing is a gift of God. Let Ezekiel be one example of this tension.

And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God. – Ezekiel 11:19-20 (ESV)

Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? – Ezekiel 18:31 (ESV)

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. – Ezekiel 36:26-28 (ESV)

Regarding Philippians, I believe there is a distinction between “the faith” (noun) and “to believe” (verb). The faith, the Gospel, is a gift. The act of believing in response to that Gospel is both a command and a gift.

Well, this assertion is an attempt to explain the HOW of the gospel's mechanisms without the benefit of any actual verbiage in the text that explicitly tells us that this is how it works. It is a conclusion drawn from what is written that I don't believe is actually implied by the text.

When God had Ezekiel prophecy that he would give us hearts of flesh rather than stone, I believe we actually see the greatest example of how he would accomplish that on the day of Pentecost and it wasn't as you describe. The means by which he softened the hearts of those Jewish people on the Day of Pentecost was not through the use of the Holy Spirit literally himself changing the nature of the listener but by delivering the words through the mouths of his chosen prophets to speak to the people.

It was the words which convinced those standing there that they had indeed made a mistake when they commended their Messiah into the "lawless hands" unto crucifixion.

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

And Paul confirms that this is the way it works in Romans.

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,

Who bring glad tidings of good things!”


16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So, it is the word which will either soften or harden our hearts, words delivered by the Holy Spirit. The first thing, Paul says is we must hear. And it is our choice whether or not we accept the words we hear and give them the compassion they deserve. Those on the day of Pentecost heard the words that Peter taught and then believed and it was then that their hearts were exchanged, otherwise they could not have been cut. Stone won't do that. Their now softened hearts were open to the command that Peter would give them in response to their question "what must we do?"

Some standing there chose not to believe.

Al, I believe that the words spoken through the prophets are the means by which the Holy Spirit works to regenerate the man dead in his trespasses and sins. In other words, God decrees both the ends (election unto salvation) and the means to those ends (preaching of the Gospel). Paul declares in the beginning of Romans that the Gospel is the means of God's redemptive work.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” – Romans 1:16-17 (ESV)

It is the very words of Scripture, all of which are theopneustos, or God-breathed, which carry the regenerative power of the Spirit to his elect. So, it is not the natural man who consents to the Gospel in his hardened state before his heart is changed, but God who softens his heart to receive it, believe it, and obey it.

I hope this is helpful! :)
 
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Al Touthentop

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You and I should have a conversation about what "literal" and "figurative" means.

It's not necessary. We have examples where Jesus used the word baptism figuratively.

Luke 12
50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!

Here he's being figurative. Though baptism by default means to be immersed in water, here Jesus is talking about being immersed in suffering.

When he says, "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved" he's talking about water baptism, literally. When Peter tells us in his letter that baptism "now saves us", he's talking about water baptism (explicitly included in his context when he says it's the antitype - the impression left by the stamp - of Noah's ark where "eight souls were saved through water").

The fact that Peter tells us without any caveats that baptism saves us, is a confirmation that he believed Jesus' last instructions to him before ascending to the father. It's also a repudiation of the claim that ALL works can't save us - something never taught in scripture.

Paul's instructions that we're not saved by works were always distinguished by the context. In Ephesians he's telling the Gentiles he was writing to, that they were not saved works "of yourselves," not every work. The works which saved them were the works God commanded. In verses 1-6 of chapter 2 he says that it was their baptism that saved them. So he can't be excluding baptism from the "works" which do not save them.

Then in verse 10 he tells us that the works which we are to do are those God created us to walk in. Clearly, works are required as every single author of the New Testament confirms.

In Romans and Galatians, the works he's talking about are works of the law of Moses which were nailed to the cross. One cannot go back to an obsolete law and be justified by it.

Romans 6 tells us that the way were we are put into Christ is through baptism. It conforms us to Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection and we are born a new creature in Christ. That's the very definition of being born again.

When Jesus said that we were to be born again in order to even see the kingdom of God, he used the word water, which was not figurative but literal as was his use of the word spirit.

Peter told the Sanhedrin that the Holy Spirit was given "to those who obey" which tells us the order of events as he understood them (and as the Holy Spirit directed him to instruct the Sanhedrin). Obedience is first, then the gift of the Spirit comes, not before. This also conforms to what he preached on the day of Pentecost. Repent and be baptized every one of you for the remission of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

That was always the way it was taught, from the day that John the Baptist brought it to the people. And we learn that it was God himself that told John to bring that message.

To divorce baptism from salvation is to tear asunder what God himself joined together. The apostles and the disciples never did this so why would anyone do that unless they didn't believe God?

In fact, Paul tells us in his letter to the Hebrews that baptism is one of the "fundamental principles" of the gospel.

In Ephesians he tells us that the very reason that he came and was sacrificed was to purify his Church through water. But the doctrine that you conform to is the one which says baptism is nothing but a "work" and you have explicitly said that it is evil to preach it. Yet every apostle and disciple preached it. They obviously did not think it was wrong to preach it.

But here's the thing. All of the objections around baptism are essentially based on a petty dispute which isn't answered and nobody at the time thought was important to answer:

What is the exact moment that a person is saved? And if a person doesn't agree with one's opinion on that, then everything else they teach is wrong.

It's a silly argument since nobody was that interested in a point in time, but in what we were to do to accomplish it (and there was more than one command). It also assumes that a person CAN know the exact moment and that that moment is permanent and that there's nothing to be done afterward. So what's the moment and why does it matter? It is said we're saved through confession, belief, repentance and baptism, not in that particular order, and there's nowhere where they're all put into a tidy little package with a powerpoint slide including an arrow and a stopwatch.

I don't care about that argument. What I care about is what was commanded. And baptism was in fact commanded, was said to remove sins and even was said to save us. Maybe, a person is saved at some moment prior. OK. But I don't know of any valid argument that would say a person could refuse to do something that God said was necessary and then expect God to ignore their disobedience.

It just sounds like an argument made from a heart of stone, like Naaman.

2 Kings 9
9 Then Naaman went with his horses and chariot, and he stood at the door of Elisha’s house. 10 And Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, “Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh shall be restored to you, and you shall be clean.” 11 But Naaman became furious, and went away and said, “Indeed, I said to myself, ‘He will surely come out to me, and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God, and wave his hand over the place, and heal the leprosy.’ 12 Are not the Abanah and the Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?” So he turned and went away in a rage. 13 And his servants came near and spoke to him, and said, “My father, if the prophet had told you to do something great, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he says to you, ‘Wash, and be clean’?” 14 So he went down and dipped seven times in the Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

Matthew 18
2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Some people would never agree with me on this but I believe that Jesus was alluding to the story of Naman here, the text of which is quite similar. The Jews who he was speaking to would definitely have recognized it. Baptism is the humbling or ourselves and it makes us new again just like a child. And look at what happened in the case of Naaman. Though this baptism was not for the remission of sins (animal sacrifice would continue to be the lawful way one received remission), it's result was
that Naaman was born again and converted from being a worshiper of the Assyrian gods to worshiping the one true God.

15 And he returned to the man of God, he and all his aides, and came and stood before him; and he said, “Indeed, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, except in Israel; now therefore, please take a gift from your servant.”

There are several great old testament baptisms which illustrate modern baptism and the apostles made reference to them in their letters. Instead of celebrating the beauty and gift of baptism and what it was taught to accomplish, many current theologians spit upon it because they believe they know the exact moment we're saved and baptism "aint it." That was never an attitude shared by any apostle or disciple from that era and I can see no reason why we would depart from their love and dedication to preach it as necessary.
 
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Al Touthentop

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Al, thanks for being careful with the text! I think you make an astute observation; however, I believe that your interpretation is mistaken. The sense of “should” in Philippians 1:29 is not in this context indicating obligation, rather purpose. This can be seen if you consider the use of the word “that” earlier on.

The words 'you should believe', as also 'suffer' in Greek (Philipians 1:39) are verbs that will grammatically connect to the proper actor based on their spelling and convey the proper intent that God breathed into Paul.

In this particular case, the phrase in your translation 'you should believe' - is the present, active infinitive - πιστεύειν. The infinitive takes away any sense of past or present tense, thus the label of "infinitive." In essence it means that as long as we're alive, we're expected to do these things.

Were your interpretation how one should read it, that's not the form of the verb that would have been used there. It would have been a passive or middle form of the verb indicating that person was receiving the action. And that word 'should' in your translation implies that the verb used was in the subjunctive mood. But it wasn't. The new king James version does not inject that word, nor does the NASB. I haven't looked at every translation.

The text is quite clear that it is the person (first person singular) who is to believe and suffer, not that he is given the suffering or belief. There is a perfectly grammatical way to say that in Greek without requiring an interpretation of the intent as is sometimes the case in modern English. And in this case, he used the first person form and a pronoun (αυτον) 'he', to emphasize that each individual was expected to perform the action. He didn't grant these things to all or 'you' plural, but to each person.

What we're given are the commands to believe and suffer.

The crux of the matter is that God can both command of us what we cannot do and provide the means to fulfill his command!

Only if he's an unjust, mocking God. If God gives us commands that we cannot obey and then holds us accountable because he didn't offer the required 'grace' that only he can provide, he's partial and unjust. God argues against that view throughout his scriptures. He's not only just, he calls us to use his standard by which we're to live our life.

If God's standard is that he can ask us to do what we're incapable of doing and then find fault with us when we do not do it, then we are allowed also to use that standard of justice in our lives. Nay, we're COMMANDED to be that arbitrary and unjust.

Al, when you say that you “don’t believe we’re born that way” in response to the quotation of Romans 8:5-8, are you saying that you do not believe that man is born incapacitated by sin to submit to the law of God?

I am saying just that. If we are born "in sin" - ie; guilty of Adam's sin, and also incapable of obeying God, then he indeed made us that way, and he arbitrarily gives some people the magical power to obey and others he withholds that power. Yet he still holds everyone accountable to the same law.

At least that is how that original sin an magic grace doctrine would have us believe. Paul was not saying that at all. In fact, he was saying that we cannot come to that conclusion because it's absurd.

The vessels come out of the factory all "destined" for honor. They are 'refitted' not created, for dishonor. And that is based on their own obedience, not his predestined design for them to be disobedient. Paul mocked the idea that one would blame God for making him disobedient. He wasn't saying that to question the rationale of making a person out of the gate evil, was something we were not allowed to do, he's already told us that God is impartial. (2:11).

To create some vessels destined for dishonor and some for dishonor, is the very definition of partiality. Thus to read Paul's words as saying God is partial and we're not to question that, is to ignore what was already set up as foundational to his message. (For there is no partiality with God).

When it says that God "hardened Pharaoh's heart" it is the equivalent of saying that Pharaoh was offended by God's words. It is the words themselves and Pharaoh's own mind that hardened Pharaoh's heart. God did not need Pharaoh's heart to be hardened to show his glory. Had Pharaoh let the people of Israel leave Egypt at Moses' first utterance, God's glory would have just as perfectly been demonstrated.

Pharaoh made the choice to be offended and God led the people out of Egypt in SPITE of Pharaoh's refusal.





 
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Yesha

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I agree with your statement that God circumcising their heart is the pivotal verse for understanding Deuteronomy 30.

Circumcision is the foreshadow or placeholder for regeneration or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The quickening to life of the spirit. The righteous, living inner-man surrounded by dead and sinful outer flesh is an apt word picture for circumcision.

[Rom 2:28-29 NASB] 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

[Rom 4:9-13 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

So we see that for Abraham, circumcision was the seal of the righteousness of faith. Since Christ and the Holy Spirit have come, the Holy Spirit now takes His rightful place as the seal of the righteousness of faith. The pattern of Abraham remains consistent. The sequence is faith, then righteousness, then the Holy Spirit (circumcision of the heart). For Abraham was made righteous for his faith while uncircumcised, or before regeneration.

Gup, I am still learning the theology of the sacraments, so I appreciate your explanations here!

On my present view, circumcision was instituted as a sign and seal of God’s promises as you noted in Romans 4. It is a sign of the promises which are conferred to those who believe and a seal of those promises to those who do believe. However, outward circumcision never conferred the promises under its own power. It is altogether the Holy Spirit who works inwardly to circumcise the heart and seal it as God’s own. These acts are not necessarily coincident, as we see in the case of Abraham.

Abraham had faith and was counted righteous before he was circumcised in the flesh. He received the outward sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness he had already had by faith. From where did his faith come? My interpretation of Scripture is that faith is the work of the Spirit and that it is expressed by one whose heart has been quickened to spiritual life, which is to say, regenerated. This picture of the Spirit’s inward working was linked to the physical act of circumcision, so that the outward circumcision of the flesh pointed toward the promise of a new heart to those who believe (sign), and assured that reality to those for whom faith had been granted (seal). So then the sequence I see in Abraham’s account is:

spiritual circumcision (regeneration) > faith > righteousness > physical circumcision (sign and seal of the covenant)
 
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ViaCrucis

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Gup, I am still learning the theology of the sacraments, so I appreciate your explanations here!

On my present view, circumcision was instituted as a sign and seal of God’s promises as you noted in Romans 4. It is a sign of the promises which are conferred to those who believe and a seal of those promises to those who do believe. However, outward circumcision never conferred the promises under its own power. It is altogether the Holy Spirit who works inwardly to circumcise the heart and seal it as God’s own. These acts are not necessarily coincident, as we see in the case of Abraham.

Abraham had faith and was counted righteous before he was circumcised in the flesh. He received the outward sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness he had already had by faith. From where did his faith come? My interpretation of Scripture is that faith is the work of the Spirit and that it is expressed by one whose heart has been quickened to spiritual life, which is to say, regenerated. This picture of the Spirit’s inward working was linked to the physical act of circumcision, so that the outward circumcision of the flesh pointed toward the promise of a new heart to those who believe (sign), and assured that reality to those for whom faith had been granted (seal). So then the sequence I see in Abraham’s account is:

spiritual circumcision (regeneration) > faith > righteousness > physical circumcision (sign and seal of the covenant)

Jewish male children were (are still) circumcised on the eighth day after their birth. This sign and seal from God wasn't merely outward, but actually conveyed and conferred the covenant promise of God to that child.

There is a danger in trying to separate tangible, external things from spiritual realities and promises. This is a kind of matter-spirit dualism, something which Christianity has always struggled against (its most severe expression was in the many Gnostic and neo-Gnostic movements throughout history). But we see, in Scripture, that God is always at work through His physical creation to accomplish His purposes. That's the whole point of the Incarnation.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Gup20

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Gup, I am still learning the theology of the sacraments, so I appreciate your explanations here!

On my present view, circumcision was instituted as a sign and seal of God’s promises as you noted in Romans 4. It is a sign of the promises which are conferred to those who believe and a seal of those promises to those who do believe. However, outward circumcision never conferred the promises under its own power. It is altogether the Holy Spirit who works inwardly to circumcise the heart and seal it as God’s own. These acts are not necessarily coincident, as we see in the case of Abraham.

Abraham had faith and was counted righteous before he was circumcised in the flesh. He received the outward sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness he had already had by faith. From where did his faith come? My interpretation of Scripture is that faith is the work of the Spirit and that it is expressed by one whose heart has been quickened to spiritual life, which is to say, regenerated. This picture of the Spirit’s inward working was linked to the physical act of circumcision, so that the outward circumcision of the flesh pointed toward the promise of a new heart to those who believe (sign), and assured that reality to those for whom faith had been granted (seal). So then the sequence I see in Abraham’s account is:

spiritual circumcision (regeneration) > faith > righteousness > physical circumcision (sign and seal of the covenant)
My point is that, as the pattern for salvation, Abraham's account of righteousness before circumcision is powerful evidence that regeneration is not required for faith.

Indeed, there are several verses which deal with the question of the sequence directly:

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

[Act 11:16-17 NASB] 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as [He gave] to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"​

In both cases we see that faith comes BEFORE the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or regeneration.

A proper understanding of the fucntion of faith in salvation shows that both Calvin and Arminius had the same, fatal flaw in their systematic theology. Both assumed that the believer was made righteous DIRECTLY for their faith. This is incorrect. Faith and righteousness have an indirect relationship.

Faith qualifies us for human adoption. We become the descendants of Abraham by having the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had. Then, in the second step, those who are descendants inherit the righteousness given to Abraham. No one requires spiritual regeneration for human adoption.

John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham."

So even John Calvin recognized that God chose Abraham’s descendants as a group, and not each person individually. God’s elect (or chosen) are those who inherit the oath he made with Abraham. Those who are qualified as heirs of the promise or covenant.

Calvin didn’t realize that all Christians are saved by becoming qualified as part of the group of the “offspring of Abraham.” He mistakenly thought we all obtain righteousness the same way Abraham did – directly for his faith. However, this would mean that Christ (or some other sinless figures) would have to die once for each person who was saved – a life for a life. In the same way that we all inherited death from Adam, so too have we all inherited Christ’s righteousness. Christ directly exchanged (redeemed) His righteousness with Abraham, and then God promised Abraham that this righteousness would be an inheritance to all his descendants.

God's elect or chosen people are and have always been the descendants of Abraham. This group is elect by kinship through promise. Calvin just didn't realize that group has open enrollment on the basis of faith... and not some mystical faith produced by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but the same mere belief that Abraham had, being uncircumcised and unfilled with the Holy Spirit.

[Gal 3:6-9, 29 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

[Rom 4:11-13, 15-16 NASB] 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

[Col 1:12 NASB] 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

[
Heb 2:16 NASB] 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

[Luk 19:9 NASB] 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;


Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

Why are the chosen or elect selected? Because of the promise or oath or covenant God made to Abraham. It is His promise to Abraham which motivates Him to save those with faith, not our faith. So then, the faith has no mystical power in and of itself to affect righteousness... but rather it is kinship with Abraham (human adoption) and God's word which has that power.

[Rom 1:16-17 NASB] 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it [the] righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS [man] SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

[Rom 10:9-11, 13-14, 17 NASB] 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." ... 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? ... 17 So faith [comes] from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

God himself preached the gospel to Abraham and when he believed the gospel, God credited him with righteousness. We are qualified as heirs of that righteousness if we have the same belief as Abraham.
 
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Gup20

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Jewish male children were (are still) circumcised on the eighth day after their birth. This sign and seal from God wasn't merely outward, but actually conveyed and conferred the covenant promise of God to that child.

-CryptoLutheran
[Deu 30:6 NASB] 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.​

Even the Law of Moses says that it was always meant to transition from outward to inward circumcision.
 
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ViaCrucis

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[Deu 30:6 NASB] 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.​

Even the Law of Moses says that it was always meant to transition from outward to inward circumcision.

So where can we find the inward spiritual circumcision? Is it invisible, intangible? Or does God accomplish this in an objective, concrete way?

The answer is given to us by St. Paul in Colossians ch. 2,

"In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised Him from the dead." - Colossians 2:11-12

Our baptism is our spiritual circumcision. That which circumcision looked forward to is fulfilled in the Sacrament of Baptism. Whereby God Himself circumcises us inwardly by uniting us to Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Gup20

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So where can we find the inward spiritual circumcision? Is it invisible, intangible? Or does God accomplish this in an objective, concrete way?

The answer is given to us by St. Paul in Colossians ch. 2,

"In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised Him from the dead." - Colossians 2:11-12

Our baptism is our spiritual circumcision. That which circumcision looked forward to is fulfilled in the Sacrament of Baptism. Whereby God Himself circumcises us inwardly by uniting us to Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

-CryptoLutheran
As long as baptism, like circumcision, is internal I can accept what you've stated here. So then, we must look to scripture to see when and how righteousness and the regeneration of the Holy Spirit (spritual circumcision or baptism of the holy spirit) are applied:

[Deu 30:6 NASB] 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

[Rom 4:11-15 NASB] 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

[Act 11:15-17 NASB] 15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as [He did] upon us at the beginning. 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as [He gave] to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"​
 
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ViaCrucis

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As long as baptism, like circumcision, is internal I can accept what you've stated here. So then, we must look to scripture to see when and how righteousness and the regeneration of the Holy Spirit (spritual circumcision or baptism of the holy spirit) are applied:

[Deu 30:6 NASB] 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

[Rom 4:11-15 NASB] 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

[Act 11:15-17 NASB] 15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as [He did] upon us at the beginning. 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as [He gave] to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"​

You are insisting on a matter-spirit dualism, that physical, tangible things aren't God's work. But they are. Again, look at the Incarnation.

Baptism is God's work, yes it is a physical, tangible, material thing--we are brought to the water, and with the water the word of God is spoken, "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" and here in this water it is not mere water, but the word of God in connection with water. So that we are truly born again, the gift of the Spirit is ours, mystically united to Christ's death and His resurrection. We come to the water dead, and are afterward alive, as a new creation.

It's not physical vs non-physical; this dualistic thinking is antithetical to Christianity. God has always worked through Means, He has always used the physical world to accomplish His glorious purposes.

The Word became flesh.
God became man.

Christ was born of the Virgin Mary, He lived, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, buried, and rose from the dead. Ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He meets us in His Word and Sacraments. He meets us through the preaching of the Gospel. He meets us in the waters of Baptism. He meets us in the bread and wine of the Eucharist, His own very body and blood which is for us. Word and Sacrament, real, concrete, solid grace. Jesus Christ, the Incarnate God-Man. This is the work of the Spirit here, in the Church, for the world.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Al Touthentop

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Jewish male children were (are still) circumcised on the eighth day after their birth. This sign and seal from God wasn't merely outward, but actually conveyed and conferred the covenant promise of God to that child.


-CryptoLutheran

How can one enter that same covenant today which has been rendered obsolete?
 
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You are insisting on a matter-spirit dualism, that physical, tangible things aren't God's work. But they are. Again, look at the Incarnation.

Baptism is God's work, yes it is a physical, tangible, material thing--we are brought to the water, and with the water the word of God is spoken, "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" and here in this water it is not mere water, but the word of God in connection with water. So that we are truly born again, the gift of the Spirit is ours, mystically united to Christ's death and His resurrection. We come to the water dead, and are afterward alive, as a new creation.

It's not physical vs non-physical; this dualistic thinking is antithetical to Christianity. God has always worked through Means, He has always used the physical world to accomplish His glorious purposes.

The Word became flesh.
God became man.

Christ was born of the Virgin Mary, He lived, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, buried, and rose from the dead. Ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He meets us in His Word and Sacraments. He meets us through the preaching of the Gospel. He meets us in the waters of Baptism. He meets us in the bread and wine of the Eucharist, His own very body and blood which is for us. Word and Sacrament, real, concrete, solid grace. Jesus Christ, the Incarnate God-Man. This is the work of the Spirit here, in the Church, for the world.

-CryptoLutheran
Show it to me in the prime salvation example of Abraham, and I'll consider it. We all become saved by having the same faith in the gospel that Abraham had while he was an uncircumcised gentile. I can accept that circumcision of the heart represents baptism of the Holy Spirit, and I see Biblical evidence for that. Show me where Abraham was physically baptized in water, and I'll accept that I must emulate that to be saved.

Baptism isn't a righteousness/salvation issue, it's an obedience issue for those who have already been saved.

[Mar 1:8 NASB] 8 "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

[Act 1:5 NASB] 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

[Act 10:43-48 NASB] 43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we [did,] can he?" 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.​

So we see they were saved and baptized in the Holy Spirit BEFORE being baptized in water.
 
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ViaCrucis

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How can one enter that same covenant today which has been rendered obsolete?

That covenant was exclusively for the Jews. In Christ there is a new covenant.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Show it to me in the prime salvation example of Abraham, and I'll consider it. We all become saved by having the same faith in the gospel that Abraham had while he was an uncircumcised gentile. I can accept that circumcision of the heart represents baptism of the Holy Spirit, and I see Biblical evidence for that. Show me where Abraham was physically baptized in water, and I'll accept that I must emulate that to be saved.

Baptism isn't a righteousness/salvation issue, it's an obedience issue for those who have already been saved.

[Mar 1:8 NASB] 8 "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

[Act 1:5 NASB] 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

[Act 10:43-48 NASB] 43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we [did,] can he?" 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.​

So we see they were saved and baptized in the Holy Spirit BEFORE being baptized in water.

The fulfillment of St. John the Baptist's words that the One who would come after him, that is Jesus Christ, would baptize with the Holy Spirit occurred on Pentecost. Hence Jesus says to the Apostles just before the Ascension, "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now". This occurred with the outpouring of the Spirit on Pentecost. As you note here, a second outpouring upon the Gentiles occurred when St. Peter went to the house of Cornelius. Just like on Pentecost, the Spirit was poured out. What occurred at Cornelius' house was a kind of second Pentecost, which God did as a sign of the full acceptance of the Gentiles in the Church's mission; that Jew and Gentile alike, without distinction, are included in God's call.

These two events, the pouring out of the Spirit on Pentecost and the pouring out of the Spirit at Cornelius' house are the only times the Scriptures say are that "baptism with the Holy Spirit". In both instances it was a momentous, historic event, a sign from God.

That is, there is nothing in Scripture which presents "baptism with the Holy Spirit" as an individual experience, there is nothing in Scripture which presents it as having to do with an individual's conversion. It is not being born again/regenerated, it is not conversion, it is not a secondary experience that comes after conversion. It was a very public, corporate, historic act of God inaugurating and initiating The Church's grand purpose and mission in the world.

I don't know what you are talking about when you speak of Abraham as the "prime salvation example". Abraham had faith and it was reckoned to him as righteousness, by trusting in God and God's promise, Abraham was justified by his faith; and St. Paul uses this to show that salvation has always been through faith, and that works--whether works of the Torah or any human efforts--do not justify us.

Salvation is by grace alone through faith on Christ's account alone. What Christ has done, He has done for all, objectively so, so that St. Paul can say that all have been justified (Romans 5:18); but there remains the question of how this is appropriated to us, how do we receive Christ's work? And the answer to that is that God works through the Means of Grace given to the Church, hence Romans 10:17, that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. The gift of faith, which is God's work and not of ourselves (Ephesians 2:8) comes to us by God's precious word, the Gospel. So wherever this word is God works faith, and so St. Paul says in Ephesians 5:26 that Christ has sanctified His Church by the washing of water by the word, Christ says in John 3:5 that we must be born of water and the Spirit, in Titus 3:5 St. Paul says that we are saved not by works done by us but by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Spirit, and so on and so forth.

For this reason we see that God works through Means, Word and Sacrament. Thus where God has attached and connected His saving word we can be confident of His promise, as the Prophet Isaiah writes, "My word does not return to Me empty, but goes out and accomplishes that which I sent it forth to do." (Isaiah 55:11).

Holy Baptism isn't a work of obedience we do to please God. No where is this written in Scripture. Rather, we read time and again that Baptism is God's work for us, for by this work of God we are regenerated, receive the Holy Spirit, are joined to Christ's death and resurrection, clothed with Christ, and indeed that it saves us. Because it isn't just water, it is water connected to and comprehended with God's word, and it is God's word which brings faith to us, and thus we are justified.

It is entirely by the work and grace of God alone, apart from ourselves. So that no one may boast.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Yesha

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The words 'you should believe', as also 'suffer' in Greek (Philipians 1:39) are verbs that will grammatically connect to the proper actor based on their spelling and convey the proper intent that God breathed into Paul.

In this particular case, the phrase in your translation 'you should believe' - is the present, active infinitive - πιστεύειν. The infinitive takes away any sense of past or present tense, thus the label of "infinitive." In essence it means that as long as we're alive, we're expected to do these things.

Al, with all charity in mind I would like to inquire how you concluded the bolded? The text is rendered as “it has been granted” (ESV, NASB) or “it has been graciously granted” (LEB) or “it is given” (KJV), to give a few examples, in reference to believing and suffering, not as “it is expected”. I know you are making an inference; I just wish to know how you do so in the context of the passage.

Were your interpretation how one should read it, that's not the form of the verb that would have been used there. It would have been a passive or middle form of the verb indicating that person was receiving the action.

Al, it seems to me that this is precisely what the passive construction, “it has been granted to you”, indicates. The persons who are on the receiving end of the granting action are the Philippian saints, and that on behalf of Christ. Shortly thereafter we see that what has been granted is “to believe” and “to suffer”.

And that word 'should' in your translation implies that the verb used was in the subjunctive mood. But it wasn't. The new king James version does not inject that word, nor does the NASB. I haven't looked at every translation.

Indeed, the verb is not in the subjunctive. The phrasing of the ESV is different than the other translations I checked.

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, - Philippians 1:29 (ESV)

For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, - Philippians 1:29 (NASB)

Comparing the ESV and NASB shows that the ESV translators chose a different construction (that…should) in place of the infinitive form of the NASB. But the meaning remains the same. The ESV is not suggesting the subjunctive mood here. It is indicating that the purpose of the faith and suffering that has been granted is for the sake of Christ (e.g., “it has been granted [so] that”)

The text is quite clear that it is the person (first person singular) who is to believe and suffer, not that he is given the suffering or belief. There is a perfectly grammatical way to say that in Greek without requiring an interpretation of the intent as is sometimes the case in modern English. And in this case, he used the first person form and a pronoun (αυτον) 'he', to emphasize that each individual was expected to perform the action. He didn't grant these things to all or 'you' plural, but to each person.

What we're given are the commands to believe and suffer.

Al, I am admittedly lost with your description. I am not a Greek scholar so I can only argue proficiently from English and grammatical standpoints. However, in my resources, the “you” (ὑμῖν) in v29a is in the second person plural, not the first person singular, indicating that Paul has the Philippian saints in mind as when he opened the letter. I am also confused by your reference to “he”. There is a “him” (αὐτὸν) referenced to Christ, but not to individual saints in Philippi.

For to you (ὑμῖν) it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him (αὐτὸν), but also to suffer for His sake, - Philippians 1:29 (NASB)

If you could show me what textual form you are working with and how you came to these conclusions regarding the grammar, I would be incredibly grateful. :)

Furthermore, I cannot reach the same conclusion that expectation is the thrust of Paul’s statement or that “to believe” and “to suffer” are merely commands (there is no imperative construction). Grammatically I do not see how this fits the context.

Only if he's an unjust, mocking God. If God gives us commands that we cannot obey and then holds us accountable because he didn't offer the required 'grace' that only he can provide, he's partial and unjust. God argues against that view throughout his scriptures. He's not only just, he calls us to use his standard by which we're to live our life.

The Scriptures teach that God both commands what he wills and grants what he commands. We are tasked as faithful students of the Word to understand both things in tandem. We must remember that God created man in his image and with moral capacity and duties (Genesis 1:26-28). Adam’s disobedience as our federal head plunged the whole of humanity into sin (Romans 5:12, 18). But Adam’s failure does not undo the righteous requirements of a Holy God. The one who breaks the law does not absolve the law.

The predicament is that we, in sin, cannot submit to the law of God (Romans 8:7-8), yet God commands that we obey him just as he did Adam (the standard has not changed). Not only are we unable, we are unwilling. The Scriptures tell us that we are dead in sin, that we are children of wrath by nature, that we are enemies of God (Ephesians 2:1-3). Our inability to fulfill God’s righteous law because of our sinful nature is not coupled with a desire to be made able to do so. Instead, we willfully suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness and do not honor him as we ought (Romans 1:18, 21).

I do not believe that the charge that God is partial and unjust for holding men accountable despite their inability properly regards God’s justice. God’s justice demands that he pour out the full measure of his wrath against every and all sin. He cannot look past sin and leave it unpunished. Were God to be partial in his justice, he would execute justice against some but not others. But God is not partial and judges Jew and Gentile, that is the whole world, alike (Romans 2:6-11). God will judge according to what has been revealed to each man (Romans 2:12). And what of the elect of God? Their sins were atoned for at the cross so that God can be just and the justifier of the ungodly (Romans 3:26).

But of the gracious gifts of God there is no such obligation. As law breakers, we have no right to claim his mercy or grace for ourselves. Were it so, we would be able to demand his grace as our due, as what we deserve. The Bible teaches that God freely dispenses his grace and mercy on whomever he will (Exodus 33:19), and he does so, not according to human will, but according to his own (Romans 9:16).

If God's standard is that he can ask us to do what we're incapable of doing and then find fault with us when we do not do it, then we are allowed also to use that standard of justice in our lives. Nay, we're COMMANDED to be that arbitrary and unjust.

To think that we should be “arbitrary and unjust” is to misunderstand God’s holy standard as both arbitrary and unjust. But God is neither. He enacts his justice against sins (purposeful not arbitrary) and without partiality to persons (just not unjust). We, in emulating his justice, are to act accordingly, by judging purposefully the wicked deeds of men and without partiality to who they are or what they have done. Unfortunately, this is not the consistent testimony of human history, which has shown that human justice is, in many cases, arbitrary and unjust. This is an abomination to the Lord.

I am saying just that. If we are born "in sin" - ie; guilty of Adam's sin, and also incapable of obeying God, then he indeed made us that way, and he arbitrarily gives some people the magical power to obey and others he withholds that power. Yet he still holds everyone accountable to the same law.

At least that is how that original sin an magic grace doctrine would have us believe. Paul was not saying that at all. In fact, he was saying that we cannot come to that conclusion because it's absurd.

Al, God created man in his image and his likeness and declared his work “good” (Gen 1:31). He did not create man in sin. Adam had harmony with God in the garden. His rebellion is what plunged the whole of humanity into sin so that we are all now under the grip of death. On this view, we fell in Adam (Romans 5:12, 19) and are children of wrath by nature, not by choice (Ephesians 2:3). This is original sin: the corruption of the whole nature of man through the fall.

The vessels come out of the factory all "destined" for honor. They are 'refitted' not created, for dishonor. And that is based on their own obedience, not his predestined design for them to be disobedient. Paul mocked the idea that one would blame God for making him disobedient. He wasn't saying that to question the rationale of making a person out of the gate evil, was something we were not allowed to do, he's already told us that God is impartial. (2:11).

To create some vessels destined for dishonor and some for dishonor, is the very definition of partiality. Thus to read Paul's words as saying God is partial and we're not to question that, is to ignore what was already set up as foundational to his message. (For there is no partiality with God).

Al, I think Paul means differently in Romans 9.

For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. – Romans 9:15-16 (ESV)

Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— - Romans 9:21-23 (ESV)

When it says that God "hardened Pharaoh's heart" it is the equivalent of saying that Pharaoh was offended by God's words. It is the words themselves and Pharaoh's own mind that hardened Pharaoh's heart. God did not need Pharaoh's heart to be hardened to show his glory. Had Pharaoh let the people of Israel leave Egypt at Moses' first utterance, God's glory would have just as perfectly been demonstrated.

Pharaoh made the choice to be offended and God led the people out of Egypt in SPITE of Pharaoh's refusal.

Al, I do not come to that conclusion from the text. We see throughout the Exodus account two things regarding hardening:
  1. Pharaoh hardening his own heart (e.g., Exodus 8:15)
  2. God hardening Pharaoh’s heart (e.g., Exodus 9:12)
I do not think we can say that God’s hardening Pharaoh’s heart is the same as Pharaoh’s being offended, as that would seem to fall under the first condition. Indeed, Paul in quoting this passage explains that both the mercy of God and his hardening are displays of his power and glory.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. – Romans 9:17-18 (ESV)

While I agree with you that God did not need Pharaoh to show his glory, he decided to use Pharaoh for exactly that end and despite his disobedience.
 
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Al Touthentop

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Al, with all charity in mind I would like to inquire how you concluded the bolded? The text is rendered as “it has been granted” (ESV, NASB) or “it has been graciously granted” (LEB) or “it is given” (KJV), to give a few examples, in reference to believing and suffering, not as “it is expected”. I know you are making an inference; I just wish to know how you do so in the context of the passage.

It's not an inference. Commands are given or granted. The verbs there indicate that these are things were given to do.


Al, it seems to me that this is precisely what the passive construction, “it has been granted to you”, indicates. The persons who are on the receiving end of the granting action are the Philippian saints, and that on behalf of Christ. Shortly thereafter we see that what has been granted is “to believe” and “to suffer”.

What is precisely the construction is that there is no passive tense there. We can sometimes read in English a passive construction because our verbs do not have the same nuances as the Greek verbs do. We typically add 'ing' or change the word order to do that. Greek verbs have many different forms that tell us exactly who the actor is and if that actor is receiving the action or doing the action. In this case, it is the person given or granted the responsibility who performs the action.


Indeed, the verb is not in the subjunctive. The phrasing of the ESV is different than the other translations I checked.

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, - Philippians 1:29 (ESV)

For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, - Philippians 1:29 (NASB)

Comparing the ESV and NASB shows that the ESV translators chose a different construction (that…should) in place of the infinitive form of the NASB. But the meaning remains the same. The ESV is not suggesting the subjunctive mood here. It is indicating that the purpose of the faith and suffering that has been granted is for the sake of Christ (e.g., “it has been granted [so] that”)

Right. And it is for us 'to believe' - or 'to suffer' - the infinitives in the in indicative mood pushing the action onto us to do.


Al, I am admittedly lost with your description. I am not a Greek scholar so I can only argue proficiently from English and grammatical standpoints. However, in my resources, the “you” (ὑμῖν) in v29a is in the second person plural, not the first person singular, indicating that Paul has the Philippian saints in mind as when he opened the letter. I am also confused by your reference to “he”. There is a “him” (αὐτὸν) referenced to Christ, but not to individual saints in Philippi.

I messed that up when I was reading my interlinear. Apologies. I was reading it as 'that he' should suffer. You plural. As in the people he was speaking to.
For to you (ὑμῖν) it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him (αὐτὸν), but also to suffer for His sake, - Philippians 1:29 (NASB)

If you could show me what textual form you are working with and how you came to these conclusions regarding the grammar, I would be incredibly grateful. :)

Furthermore, I cannot reach the same conclusion that expectation is the thrust of Paul’s statement or that “to believe” and “to suffer” are merely commands (there is no imperative construction). Grammatically I do not see how this fits the context.

It doesn't have to be imperative to be a command. Though the imperative is often a command, the indicative in this case equally conveys a command. We are 'to believe' and 'to suffer.'

The Scriptures teach that God both commands what he wills and grants what he commands. We are tasked as faithful students of the Word to understand both things in tandem. We must remember that God created man in his image and with moral capacity and duties (Genesis 1:26-28). Adam’s disobedience as our federal head plunged the whole of humanity into sin (Romans 5:12, 18). But Adam’s failure does not undo the righteous requirements of a Holy God. The one who breaks the law does not absolve the law.

Adam didn't plunge us into sin ourselves. He brought disobedience into the world and we sinned afterward. We aren't charged with his sin as Paul lets us know specifically saying that we were sinners even though we didn't commit the same exact sin. We did not commit the 'likeness of his sin,' we committed our own sins.

We're judged by our own actions, not Adam's. And were it true that there are some who sin because they are predestined to do this, then God's glory is magnified in sin. That's just wrong. Pharaoh didn't glorify God through his disobedience. God accomplished his own will in spite of Pharaoh's disobedience and his glory was magnified because of the completion of his will, not because Pharaoh disobeyed him.

The predicament is that we, in sin, cannot submit to the law of God (Romans 8:7-8), yet God commands that we obey him just as he did Adam (the standard has not changed).

We're not "in sin" unless we're disobedient. We're not born in sin.

Not only are we unable, we are unwilling.

If we're unable, then there is no just cause to hold us accountable. There's nothing wrong with us if we're unable to obey his commands. We're just doing what we were created to do, if we were created with no capability of obeying. That wouldn't be just at all. God calls us to mimic his definition of justness. And arbitrary and capricious judgement is excluded from that definition.

If I caged up a man in his driveway and told him that he would be imprisoned forever if he didn't mow the lawn, I would be enforcing the same so-called justness attributed to God. He can't get out of that cage and mow the lawn unless I open it. If I refuse to open the cage so that he can mow the lawn and then apply the punishment, I am nothing but a tyrant.


The Scriptures tell us that we are dead in sin, that we are children of wrath by nature, that we are enemies of God (Ephesians 2:1-3).

When we sin.


Our inability to fulfill God’s righteous law because of our sinful nature is not coupled with a desire to be made able to do so. Instead, we willfully suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness and do not honor him as we ought (Romans 1:18, 21).

How were Elizabeth and Zacharias said, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to be blameless under the law? Paul is telling the Romans that they cannot be justified by a law that is no longer in effect, not that the law NEVER justified people. Later he will tell them that he himself was blameless under the law. While it was in effect, obedience to it justified people.
I do not believe that the charge that God is partial and unjust for holding men accountable despite their inability properly regards God’s justice.

Well, he doesn't do that. But if he did, he would be a liar and a tyrant. He teaches us against that sort of "justness". It's not just. Jesus said that if he hadn't come and spoken to the Pharisees, they wouldn't even have sin.
 
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