100%, absolute, irrefutable proof of God's existence

hedrick · Mar 27, 2020

just a sec. First, let's define the plane of the ecliptic. The planets around our sun have orbits that are in roughly the same plane.

What the Planck observations seem to show is that there are features of the observable universe that are slightly different in parts of the sky above the plane of the ecliptic than below it. This doesn't say that the earth is at the center of anything. There's no reason to think that our solar system is the only one with the same plane of the ecliptic.

There have also been analyses that suggest that the observation many be an error. It's too soon to be sure.

Finally, why would having the earth central to the universe prove the existence of God?

See Axis of evil (cosmology) - Wikipedia. In particular, note that it's not yet clear whether the differences are significant.

chilehed · Mar 27, 2020

John Helpher said:
Have you seen the data?

I have, no thanks to that absurd, monumental testament to irrational thinking that you posted. That video had no data at all, but was rather a long, tedious, psychic-energy-sucking rant filled with nothing more substantial than mockery and argument from incredulity. The mere existence of that video makes all other videos more stupid; it's like a five-year-old who grew up and never figured out that the world didn't really revolve around his navel those times he spent on a merry-go-round.

John Helpher · Mar 27, 2020

chilehed said:
That video had no data at all, but was rather a long, tedious, psychic-energy-sucking rant filled with nothing more substantial than mockery and argument from incredulity. The mere existence of that video makes all other videos more stupid

Can I ask you to be a little more specific as to why the video makes you so angry?

John Helpher · Mar 27, 2020

hedrick said:
There have also been analyses that suggest that the observation many be an error. It's too soon to be sure.

Nah. Here's the first sentence from the wiki you posted; "The "Axis of Evil" is a name given to an anomaly in astronomical observations of the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB). The anomaly appears to give the plane of the Solar System and hence the location of Earth a greater significance than might be expected by chance".

They're not saying the data doesn't demonstrate that our galaxy is the axis of the universe; they're saying they believe the data to be an "anomaly". It "appears" to give our solar system greater significance in the universe and they've chosen to refer to that appearance as the axis of evil. Why would any scientist refer to any data (or conclusion from that data) evil? There's a huge load of cognitive bias around the data which is almost certainly blinding them from the most simple explanation; it doesn't just "appear" to be the axis in the same way that genetic code doesn't just "appear" to be designed.

chilehed · Mar 27, 2020

John Helpher said:
Can I ask you to be a little more specific as to why the video makes you so angry?

Angry? I've shown no indication that I'm angry. Certainly that bit of drivel couldn't make me angry.

I wonder - do you get angry when you see inane, brainless rubbish spouted on the internet? Maybe this is a case of projection? You'd be angry so you think that I must be?

John Helpher · Mar 27, 2020

chilehed said:
Angry? I've shown no indication that I'm angry. Certainly that bit of drivel couldn't make me angry.

Ok, if not angry, then certainly bothered enough to the point that you feel insults are necessary to convey your feelings. What is it about the video that makes you feel a need to use so many insults?

chilehed · Mar 27, 2020

John Helpher said:
Ok, if not angry, then certainly bothered enough to the point that you feel insults are necessary to convey your feelings. What is it about the video that makes you feel a need to use so many insults?

I didn't insult anyone, I provided an objective and accurate assessment of the intellectual value and presentation style of a video.

John Helpher · Mar 27, 2020

chilehed said:
I didn't insult anyone, I provided an objective and accurate assessment of the intellectual value and presentation style of a video.

Would you mind being specific with your criticisms? It's clear you think the video is dumb etc, but you're not saying why.

InnerPhyre · Mar 27, 2020

If the universe is infinite then every place in the universe is the center because it expands infinitely in all directions no matter where you are.

chilehed · Mar 27, 2020

John Helpher said:
Would you mind being specific with your criticisms? It's clear you think the video is dumb etc, but you're not saying why.

I said exactly why, very clearly and specifically. I see no need to repeat myself.

YouAreAwesome · Mar 27, 2020

childeye 2 said:
Or just be honest and say I don't know.

It is not dishonest to have an opinion based on personal bias.

"Where's dad?"
"I don't know but I do know him. He's probably in the garage working on a car."

My personal experience affects my opinion, which could be wrong, but it is based on knowledge of the person.

A person who believes they have experienced God will often choose #2b based on personal experience. While "I don't know" is also an answer, the person's personal experience plays a role in determining the unknown.

Thus claiming that the universe could have come from another dimension is reasonable at this point in scientific discovery as it doesn't clash with it. What is wrong with conjecture? It is not science, it is putting all that we know and experience into a personal belief system. And it is not dishonest to do so.

John Helpher · Mar 27, 2020

chilehed said:
I said exactly why, very clearly and specifically

Nah, you said the data doesn't demonstrate that our solar system is the axis upon which the universe rotates. I asked if you'd seen the data. You said yes and then instead of discussing the data you launched into a bunch of insults.

Even the skeptics don't deny that the data demonstrates a rotation of the universe with our solar system as the axis; instead they call it an "anomaly" and the "axis of evil". They wouldn't bother to refer to it as either if the data didn't demonstrate our solar system as the axis upon which the universe rotates.

The earth isn't just some random speck of dust in a random universe. Much like every other ordered system we can observe, the earth sits exactly where the creator put it.

hedrick · Mar 27, 2020

John Helpher said:
Nah, you said the data doesn't demonstrate that our solar system is the axis upon which the universe rotates. I asked if you'd seen the data. You said yes and then instead of discussing the data you launched into a bunch of insults.

Even the skeptics don't deny that the data demonstrates a rotation of the universe with our solar system as the axis; instead they call it an "anomaly" and the "axis of evil". They wouldn't bother to refer to it as either if the data didn't demonstrate our solar system as the axis upon which the universe rotates.

The earth isn't just some random speck of dust in a random universe. Much like every other ordered system we can observe, the earth sits exactly where the creator put it.

The descriptions of results I've read don't agree with this. The issue is the "axis" of a couple of measurements, more or less the direction they point. That axis agrees with earth's, and with the plane of the ecliptic. But my point is that there's no reason to think that the earth and the solar system are the only places with the same orientation. Indeed it's very likely that there are plenty of others.

John Helpher · Mar 27, 2020

hedrick said:
Indeed it's very likely that there are plenty of others.

What about the CMB data that the planck satellite recorded makes you think there are plenty of axis upon which the universe rotates?

hedrick · Mar 27, 2020

John Helpher said:
What about the CMB data that the planck satellite recorded makes you think there are plenty of axis upon which the universe rotates?

No. Plenty of other planets with the same axis.

It’s not the axis of rotation. It’s the quadrupole and octupole axis of some measurements

chilehed · Mar 27, 2020

John Helpher said:
Nah, you said the data doesn't demonstrate that our solar system is the axis upon which the universe rotates. I asked if you'd seen the data. You said yes and then instead of discussing the data you launched into a bunch of insults.

This is very interesting. You pay no attention to the three specific logical errors I pointed out, and complain about my characterization of the video as being inane drivel (which it manifestly is) while simultaneously ignoring the repeated personal insults that the videographer hurls at the people who disagree with him (thus effectively adopting them as your own by posting his rubbish).

I haven't called anyone stupid, but he does repeatedly and by extension so do you.

John Helpher · Mar 27, 2020

hedrick said:
It’s not the axis of rotation. It’s the quadrupole and octupole axis of some measurements

The wiki you listed doesn't agree with you:
Lawrence Krauss is quoted as follows in a 2006 Edge.org article:[5]

But when you look at CMB map, you also see that the structure that is observed, is in fact, in a weird way, correlated with the plane of the earth around the sun. Is this Copernicus coming back to haunt us? That's crazy. We're looking out at the whole universe. There's no way there should be a correlation of structure with our motion of the earth around the sun – the plane of the earth around the sun – the ecliptic. That would say we are truly the center of the universe.

----
The data doesn't conform to what he expected so he calls it crazy and weird. He declares there's "no way" the data should demonstrate what it actually does. This is a scientist who's balking at the science because he simply does not want to believe this earth is designed and placed in the universe with purpose.

From the wiki, again:
Some anomalies in the background radiation have been reported which are aligned with the plane of the Solar System, which contradicts the Copernican principle by suggesting that the Solar System's alignment is special
------

Calling it an anomaly is a disingenuous way to dismiss the implications of the data.

From the wiki:
Land and Magueijo in 2005 dubbed this alignment the "axis of evil" owing to the implications for current models of the cosmos
------

Think carefully; they refer to the data as the "axis of evil" because it threatens what they want to believe.

From the wiki:
although several later studies have shown systematic errors in the collection of that data and the way it is processed.[8][9][10] Various studies of the CMB anisotropy data either confirm the Copernican principle,[11] model the alignments in a non-homogeneous universe still consistent with the principle,[12] or attempt to explain them as local phenomena.[13] Some of these alternate explanations were discussed by Copi, et al., who claimed that data from the Planck satellite could shed significant light on whether the preferred direction and alignments were spurious
------

We're supposed to trust studies from people who have already said this data is crazy, weird, and, as a result of feeling threatened by the data, refer to it as evil? Nah...

From the wiki:
Coincidence is a possible explanation. Chief scientist from WMAP, Charles L. Bennett suggested coincidence and human psychology were involved, "I do think there is a bit of a psychological effect, people want to find unusual things."[16]
-----

Notice that none of these people are saying the data does not demonstrate the solar system as the axis upon which the universe rotates; instead they're trying everything they can think of to discredit the data. This guy says people just want to find unusual things, which is ridiculous unless he's arguing that the equipment was programmed to produce unusual data. The sad thing is that he's doing exactly the same thing he accuses others of, but in the opposite; he's desperately clinging to his normal model.

From the wiki:
Data from the Planck Telescope published in 2013 has since found stronger evidence for the anisotropy.[17] "For a long time, part of the community was hoping that this would go away, but it hasn’t," says Dominik Schwarz of the University of Bielefeld in Germany.[18]
-----

Hoping it would go away...

hedrick · Mar 27, 2020

The plane of the earth around the sun. There’s no reason to think that other planets aren’t in the same plane around their suns.

John Helpher · Mar 27, 2020

hedrick said:
The plane of the earth around the sun. There’s no reason to think that other planets aren’t in the same plane around their suns.

But, there's also no reason to think there is. The data we have demonstrates that Earth is the axis. Not even the skeptics on the wiki page are saying what your saying. They say there's problem with the numbers, they say it's a coincidence, they say it's an anomaly, and they say they hope it'd go away, and they say it's evil, but they do not say it's something which applies to other planets.

Mark Quayle · Mar 27, 2020

John Helpher said:
Hi all. This video is about the plank satellite and how it measured the CMB (cosmic microwave background). The data demonstrates that the universe rotates on an axis, with our solar system being the center of that axis. I'd like to hear what others think. Have you heard of this before? To me it is encouraging information because it's proof that the earth is not just some random, purposeless speck in the vastness of a bleak universe.

I saw almost no mention of the Plank Satellite and what they found out. Merely that they had found out the earth is at the center. No data shown. i.e. I saw no proof of anything. BTW I am a believer, and I agree with the guy, but I saw no data on the matter.

100%, absolute, irrefutable proof of God's existence

Senior Veteran

Veteran

John 3:16

John 3:16

Veteran

John 3:16

Veteran

John 3:16

Well-Known Member

Veteran

☝✌

John 3:16

Senior Veteran

John 3:16

Senior Veteran

Veteran

John 3:16

Senior Veteran

John 3:16

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Similar threads