Ignatius the Kiwi

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God judged them accordingly as he judged everyone else who died in WW2. The Jews aren't any more special than the Polish, Gypsies, Germans, English, French and everyone else who died.

The circumstances people die in are not a free tickets to heaven especially on a Christian consideration that requires faith in Christ.
 
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Shrewd Manager

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So I guess that's proof for some that one better not challenge doctrine, because when you start to pick at the loose threads, you may risk unraveling the whole thing.

So are you saying you lost faith because the gospel stopped making sense to you, ie the doctrines were incoherent and irrational? Because it's supposed to be fides et ratio, faith should make perfect sense. Christianity, especially in the West, has made such a meal of the 'ratio' part imho.

Losing faith was a horrible experience, but I did find comfort (and still do) in thinking that if God does in fact want to save me, he will. It won't depend on my ability (or fortune) to believe the exact right thing, it will truly be by grace.

Amen, but does it not do us well to participate? I mean, the ten commandments can be seen as reflections of the natural law (prior to the moral law). For instance, if you commit murder, bad consequences are liable to eventuate - that's just the way He's designed creation. Then revealed in Christ that woven into its fabric is grace and truth, His Salvation. Don't we need to cleave to that (despite all our stumbling and folly)?

I figured basically, if this is true, how come it's so hard for believers to agree on what it is? I would expect God to make it more clearly known.

He made a lot of rules for the Muslims. But seriously, I do believe the scriptures can be understood harmoniously. But we're still not prepared to grant God absolute authority, and say 'thine will and not mine'. Self-denial is tough.

But maybe none of them have it right, maybe even the most learned (or enlightened) preacher truly sees it as a shadow or a distorted reflection.

We see through a glass, darkly, as Paul would have it.

I truly believe that if there is such a thing as salvation, that's God's work and nothing but.

That's the seed of Christian faith, isn't it?

Paul is pretty much the most radical idea ever, and it's kind of hard to believe he just dreamed it up. I don't think any of us really appreciate how radical it is, that's why even believers will inevitably try to add works in one form or another, even if it's disguised as "well it's free, but you still have to actively receive it / feel some level of remorse / appreciate it / prove with your actions that you really believe it / keep it / "work on it," whatever.

It's not just Paul's gospel (of reconciliation) that's radical. The work of the cross as the revelation of God's plan in the story stretching back to the Garden and projecting towards the restoration, showing He'll always go further to save than the forces of evil (within and without) can go to destroy. Spirit over flesh, love over gold. Absolutely trustworthy and true. His unbreakable covenant word written in blood. He knows the tav from the aleph, it's His Salvation all the way. O Lord have mercy on us and remember that we are dust.
 
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nolidad

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You get so hot under the collar because I refuse to answer your silly questions.

Not in the least! It is unfortunate that these screens do not show emotion. For I am very very calm and peaceful in this discussion!

It seems that Cornelius's visitation by angels was irrelevant to you. Cornelius didn't think so, but then you obviously know far more than he did.

Because of teh angelic visitation, a believer came to his house and He trusted in Christ and got saved then. visitations, dreams, visions, do not save.

Oh but it is your theology. What you are hammering me with is your Tree of Knowledge interpretation of scripture, missing the point completely.
Again I would direct you to the child that Jesus stood in the midst.
Jesus never demanded that child accepted your doctrine to get entry to the Kingdom of Heaven did he?

Typical bland generic accusation from one seeking to dodge a simple question asked in honesty and sincerity.

You are perverting what the scripture actually says.
As I have said before, nobody gets born again by claiming to believe the message of the cross.

On this you are dangerously and mortally wrong! Anyone, no matter how religious they believe themselves to be, if they do not trust in the death and pjhysical resurrection of Jesus as the sole and full payment of their sin debt before God the Father is yet in their sin and lost! That is the Bible as written and not reinterpreted by religious visions or dogma!
 
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Sketcher

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Do you then agree with God that Anne Frank deserved the treatment she got in Auschwitz?
The righteous judgement of God, even when it includes Hell in the afterlife, is not indicitave of every bad thing in this life being deserved - particularly when the people administering what was done to Anne Frank broke God's commands for how people are to treat people.
 
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Francis Drake

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Because of teh angelic visitation, a believer came to his house and He trusted in Christ and got saved then. visitations, dreams, visions, do not save.
Cornelius was born again long before Peter visited.
Typical bland generic accusation from one seeking to dodge a simple question asked in honesty and sincerity.
The bland accusations are coming from you not me.
This is what I said and I'll say it again.-
"What you are hammering me with is your Tree of Knowledge interpretation of scripture, missing the point completely.
Again I would direct you to the child that Jesus stood in the midst.
Jesus never demanded that child accepted your doctrine to get entry to the Kingdom of Heaven did he?"

Try addressing the above please instead of making bland accusations.
On this you are dangerously and mortally wrong! Anyone, no matter how religious they believe themselves to be, if they do not trust in the death and pjhysical resurrection of Jesus as the sole and full payment of their sin debt before God the Father is yet in their sin and lost! That is the Bible as written and not reinterpreted by religious visions or dogma!
No, it is you who are utterly wrong. Scripture makes it abundantly clear what you claim is impossible, a logical fallacy, a totally inaccurate use of scripture.
But you are not alone, its a fallacy that is taught everywhere.

1Cor1v18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Do you understand this very simple scripture, because it blows your argument out of the water?
Those "who are perishing" refers to the unregenerate, the spiritually dead.
This scripture states emphatically that spiritually dead people cannot possibly understand the cross.

That being true, it becomes abundantly clear that people must be born again, have their spirit renewed, before they can possibly understand what Jesus did for them on the cross.
1Cor2v14But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

How can we expect an unregenerate man to understand our message? He is spiritually dead and needs to be made alive before anything makes sense. Spiritual things cannot be understood using the human psyche!
Until that man bows his heart down and lets his spirit be renewed, nothing will make sense.

This means that anyone who humbles himself can be born again, before learning about the cross.
Like Abraham, Rahab, or Cornelius, and myself, all who turn to God are immediately accounted as righteous, entirely because of Jesus's blood whether they understood it or not.

The message of the cross was never meant for the unregenerate, but for us who are in the process of being saved. It is the blood of the lamb that gives power to the saints, power to overcome the enemy.
Back to verse18, after changing the red highlight-
1Cor1v18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
As can be read above, the message of the cross belongs purely to the born again saints, not the unregenerate. The blood of the lamb is our source of power!

The reason I refused your obsessive question was because it is entirely illfounded. I was born again 10 to 15 years prior to hearing about the cross.
The problem with taking scriptures meant for the saints and using them for unbelievers, is that their correct purpose then gets thoroughly ignored and the saints remain infantile in their understanding of God's purposes.
 
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holo

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The righteous judgement of God, even when it includes Hell in the afterlife, is not indicitave of every bad thing in this life being deserved - particularly when the people administering what was done to Anne Frank broke God's commands for how people are to treat people.
My point, of course, is that you can hardly say that she didn't deserve to be abducted, starved, and gassed to death, if she in fact deserves a punishment that is literally infinitely worse. Sure, you can say that it was unfair that the nazis did it, but if God did the exact same thing, it would be less than she in fact deserves. According to most Christians (as far as I can tell), she's been in continuous torment for about 75 years now, and she deserves every second of it, and she'll be there for 75 more years, and then a hundred and a thousand and a million years and when the earth has been swallowed by the sun and when the entire universe has collapsed, she will still be there, and there will be no end or relief to her suffering. She deserves it, right? I guess she's wishing she was back in Auschwitz.

She's in this condition because God wants her to be. It's what he considers the appropriate punishment for whatever she's done. Curiously, torturing someone for eternity sound pretty much like exactly what the devil would do if he had the chance, and that's why we call him evil, but what to I know? One thing I am pretty sure of is that you don't agree with this supposed display of God's righteousness at all.

Personally, I struggle to see what horrible crime a person may commit that would entitle them to eternal suffering, especially a 15 year old girl.
 
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Aryeh Jay

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My point, of course, is that you can hardly say that she didn't deserve to be abducted, starved, and gassed to death, if she in fact deserves a punishment that is literally infinitely worse.

She wasn’t gassed, she died of Typhus.
 
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Sketcher

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My point, of course, is that you can hardly say that she didn't deserve to be abducted, starved, and gassed to death, if she in fact deserves a punishment that is literally infinitely worse. Sure, you can say that it was unfair that the nazis did it, but if God did the exact same thing, it would be less than she in fact deserves.
When God directly punishes someone, that is justice. When human authorities punish someone according to the permissions and conditions that God gave those authorities, that is also justice. When human authorities overstep those permissions and conditions, or worse yet, deliberately target those they deem inconvenient (like the Nazis did), that is a grave injustice. The Nazis did what they did to her because she was Jewish. God does not punish Jews for being Jewish (Paul and the 12 Apostles never stopped being Jews after they put their faith in Christ, so they would have been punished by God for being Jewish if he was interested in doing that).

According to most Christians (as far as I can tell), she's been in continuous torment for about 75 years now, and she deserves every second of it, and she'll be there for 75 more years, and then a hundred and a thousand and a million years and when the earth has been swallowed by the sun and when the entire universe has collapsed, she will still be there, and there will be no end or relief to her suffering. She deserves it, right? I guess she's wishing she was back in Auschwitz.
Maybe, maybe not. I don't know what her relationship with God was like after her last surviving diary entry.

She's in this condition because God wants her to be. It's what he considers the appropriate punishment for whatever she's done. Curiously, torturing someone for eternity sound pretty much like exactly what the devil would do if he had the chance, and that's why we call him evil, but what to I know?

Personally, I struggle to see what horrible crime a person may commit that would entitle them to eternal suffering, especially a 15 year old girl.
I don't know the details of whatever punishment she may be receiving. I do believe that God gave her as many chances to get out if it as he deemed fair. There may have even been a chance beyond the grave to accept Christ, but Scripture doesn't get into that enough for Christians to say it is definite.

As for a crime horrible enough that entitles them to eternal suffering, I can think of several. All of which were done by Nazis. I am sure they are getting it much worse than most if not all of the people they were so vile to.
 
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nolidad

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Cornelius was born again long before Peter visited.

The bland accusations are coming from you not me.
This is what I said and I'll say it again.-
"What you are hammering me with is your Tree of Knowledge interpretation of scripture, missing the point completely.
Again I would direct you to the child that Jesus stood in the midst.
Jesus never demanded that child accepted your doctrine to get entry to the Kingdom of Heaven did he?"

Try addressing the above please instead of making bland accusations.

No, it is you who are utterly wrong. Scripture makes it abundantly clear what you claim is impossible, a logical fallacy, a totally inaccurate use of scripture.
But you are not alone, its a fallacy that is taught everywhere.

1Cor1v18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Do you understand this very simple scripture, because it blows your argument out of the water?
Those "who are perishing" refers to the unregenerate, the spiritually dead.
This scripture states emphatically that spiritually dead people cannot possibly understand the cross.

That being true, it becomes abundantly clear that people must be born again, have their spirit renewed, before they can possibly understand what Jesus did for them on the cross.
1Cor2v14But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

How can we expect an unregenerate man to understand our message? He is spiritually dead and needs to be made alive before anything makes sense. Spiritual things cannot be understood using the human psyche!
Until that man bows his heart down and lets his spirit be renewed, nothing will make sense.

This means that anyone who humbles himself can be born again, before learning about the cross.
Like Abraham, Rahab, or Cornelius, and myself, all who turn to God are immediately accounted as righteous, entirely because of Jesus's blood whether they understood it or not.

The message of the cross was never meant for the unregenerate, but for us who are in the process of being saved. It is the blood of the lamb that gives power to the saints, power to overcome the enemy.
Back to verse18, after changing the red highlight-
1Cor1v18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
As can be read above, the message of the cross belongs purely to the born again saints, not the unregenerate. The blood of the lamb is our source of power!

The reason I refused your obsessive question was because it is entirely illfounded. I was born again 10 to 15 years prior to hearing about the cross.
The problem with taking scriptures meant for the saints and using them for unbelievers, is that their correct purpose then gets thoroughly ignored and the saints remain infantile in their understanding of God's purposes.

The bible proves you wrong about cornelius!

As for the rest, unless you have placed your trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for your sins- you are not saved! This is the only way God accepts people into the Kingdom. You cannot be born again until you trust the message of the gospel!

I care not any persons standing. I care not what you accuse me of. I asked a n honest question and now you have answered it.

Trying to discuss with you is no wuselss on this thread.. You may have the last word!
 
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ViaCrucis

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The bible proves you wrong about cornelius!

As for the rest, unless you have placed your trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for your sins- you are not saved! This is the only way God accepts people into the Kingdom. You cannot be born again until you trust the message of the gospel!

I care not any persons standing. I care not what you accuse me of. I asked a n honest question and now you have answered it.

Trying to discuss with you is no wuselss on this thread.. You may have the last word!

All the Holy Patriarchs and Holy Prophets, and even St. John the Baptist, all died before Christ's Passion; and therefore could not have a conscious belief in His death and resurrection. If salvation requires an active decision to believe certain things about Jesus, and any who don't do that very specific thing are helplessly damned, then the only conclusion that can be reached is that all of God's saints who came before Christ are damned for having lived at the wrong time.

I can't help but think that this radically misunderstands what faith in Christ, as the Apostles spoke of it, refers to. Especially misunderstanding that faith is a divine gift and work apart from human effort and activity (Ephesians 2:8-9), a gift which is efficaciously given through God's gracious means (Romans 10:17).

We read that Abraham had faith, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Abraham's trust in the work of God, his reliance and dependence upon God is what reckoned him as righteous. In the Gospel of John Jesus says "Abraham longed to see My day", does that mean that Abraham knew that one day a virgin named Mary would give birth to a Child named Jesus, and this Jesus would be the Christ/Messiah, the Incarnate Logos, whose life, death, and resurrection would be the salvation of the world? Well, probably not, let's be honest. Rather, God made a promise to Abraham, a promise that he would bear a son, and through this promise Abraham would become a blessing to the nations, indeed a father to many nations. Abraham trusted in God's promise, that promise which--we believe--is ultimately realized in Jesus Christ. Abraham's trust in God's promise, ultimately realized in Jesus Christ, is what Jesus means here, He means, "I am what, ultimately, Abraham believed in." Not that he knew it, not that he could know it, but rather trusting in what God had promised, that salvation which is for the whole world was realized and manifest.

How many, therefore, hear and trust in such promises--and though they may not know fully that which is promised, are nevertheless caught up into the mystery of that promise?

Will God hold the ignorance of men against them? The general response of the Church has been throughout history a hopefulness that God, knowing men better than they themselves do, will judge with His justice, not with the justice of men, but the justice of God which is peace and reconciliation toward sinners out of His compassion and mercy. The God who loves this world of sinners is not a God who throws that which He loves away, abandoning them to hopelessness.

When we heard the Gospel, when we were brought to the waters of Baptism, when we receive the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ in and under the bread and the wine, we can be confident that through these revealed Means God gives us faith, He is saving us, for Christ has saved us. For it is by grace that we have been saved, through faith, and this is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not by our own efforts or works, lest anyone should boast. For faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. So all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, and whoever puts their trust in the Lord shall never be put to shame. And so on and so forth as the Apostle says throughout his epistles.

Those who never heard the Gospel, those who do not comprehend the Gospel, those who couldn't receive the Gospel? What of these? What of unbaptized children? What of those who lived before the time of Jesus? What of those who were never reached? What of those who were told a false gospel?

Do we really believe that God is either unable, or unwilling, to save them? Do we really believe that God looks upon the suffering of the world, and is callous?

Do we really believe that God stands above this all, angry, punishing us in this life, and punishing us in the next? Cold, distant, dispassionate toward His creation--like a lofty business CEO without empathy toward the back-breaking of those far beneath him? If that were the case, then why the cross?

If the holocaust doesn't matter to God, then why the cross?
If the pains and sufferings of the least of these, then why the cross?
If salvation is about picking the right set of religious beliefs, then why the cross?

But the Apostle says, "For God demonstrates His love toward us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)

Why do we preach the cross? Unless the cross is the salvation for the world.

"All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to Himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making His appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." - 2 Corinthians 5:18-21

Have faith in this Jesus who saves you. And not only you, but who suffered and was crucified for the whole world; preach the Gospel, and put your hope in God. Entrust to Him the lives of your neighbors, friends, and family members. Believe that the One who so graciously comes and meets you--sinful as you are--is the God who throws Himself away in love through the cross; for Christ though being by nature God did not consider equality with God something to exploit, but humbled Himself, pouring Himself out, becoming a human slave, and was obedient even to the point of death on a cross. See how God has poured Himself out for you, see that He is the Same who poured Himself out for the whole world. See that God did not abandon you, and He won't abandon your neighbor either.

No one knows what the future shall bring, but trust in God. See God through His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who says, "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father." For it is by Him that God makes Himself known, that is why He is the way, the truth, and the life--for the Father has willed to be known through His Son. Meet Christ, encounter God; trust in Jesus, trust in God (He says, "You trust in God, trust also in Me").

Live like the Gospel is true.
Live like you believe the good news.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Francis Drake

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The bible proves you wrong about cornelius!
No, the bible proves you wrong. Cornelius and all the OT believers all the believers around Jesus's time were all born again before the cross by trusting in God the creator.
What do you think this means?
Romans1v18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness;
To suppress the truth, you first need to possess that truth.

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it unto them.
They possess the truth of God because God revealed it to them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,....
The invisible things of God are made visible to all men.

.....being understood by the things that are made,...
"I didn't understand" will be thrown straight out of court at the judgement seat!

….even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
All men have been given the truth of God sufficient to surrender to Him. No excuses will be allowed.

This is what Jesus refers to when he says blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. That's because the Holy Spirit reveals the sovereignty of God deep within all men.
Rejecting that truth is suicide!

This has nothing to do with the message of the cross, that follows new birth.
As for the rest, unless you have placed your trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for your sins- you are not saved! This is the only way God accepts people into the Kingdom. You cannot be born again until you trust the message of the gospel!
You are so obsessed with your agenda that you never actually read what I posted.
You avoid biblical proof when presented, not even addressing the verses I give.
I care not any persons standing.
Try English, I might understand you.
I care not what you accuse me of. I asked a n honest question and now you have answered it.
But it went straight over your head.
Trying to discuss with you is no wuselss on this thread.. You may have the last word!
No, you don't try to discuss anything, you just rant rant and rant. Against forum rules, you have repeatedly accused me of not being saved.
How about addressing the verses.
 
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Francis Drake

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The bible proves you wrong about cornelius!
No, it proves you wrong.
Cornelius, Abraham, Rahab and all the believers we meet in the four gospels, plus myself, yourself and all the saints today, were all born again by trusting in the Lord, not by learning the message of the cross.
God didn't suddenly change the requirements when Jesus died. Redemption has always been because of Jesus's blood.
As for the rest, unless you have placed your trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for your sins- you are not saved! This is the only way God accepts people into the Kingdom. You cannot be born again until you trust the message of the gospel!
Yet another rant, arrogantly telling me I'm not saved. You are so obsessed with your agenda that you never even listen to what is said, never addressing the scriptures I give.
I care not any persons standing.
Except for your own position high above all else!
I care not what you accuse me of. I asked a n honest question and now you have answered it.
But my answer sailed right over your head, leaving you completely oblivious to its meaning.
Try addressing the scriptures.
Trying to discuss with you is no wuselss on this thread.. You may have the last word!
You never discuss anything, you just rant rant rant, never listening, never addressing the scriptures that prove your error.
 
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nolidad

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19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it unto them.
They possess the truth of God because God revealed it to them

But this does not tell a person how to be born again (saved, redeemed etc.) It just says that God is and He is eternally powerful. Too bad you reject the same Apostle when he writes that some one must confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in their heart God raised HIm from the dead in order to be saved and that it takes hearing the gospel message for that to happen!

Once again taking a verse on theology and applying it to soteriology is horrendous exegesis and understanding!
 
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nolidad

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No, it proves you wrong.
Cornelius, Abraham, Rahab and all the believers we meet in the four gospels, plus myself, yourself and all the saints today, were all born again by trusting in the Lord, not by learning the message of the cross.
God didn't suddenly change the requirements when Jesus died. Redemption has always been because of Jesus's blood.

Once again you show your ignorance of how God saved people in different times. It was always on the basis of faith alone through grace. But the object of faith was different in different times. During Noahs time, in order to be saved (both physically and spiritually) the exercise of faith was to get on the boat!

Since Pentecost- the only way a person can be saved is by faith in the death,burial and physical resurrection of Jesus for their sin debt! There is salvation found in any other method! We send missionaries to spread the gospel. Like Paul wrote in Romans 10:

Romans 10:9-15 King James Version (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

any other means of getting saved is a false means and as Paul said in Galatians 1:

Galatians 1:6-9 King James Version (KJV)
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Sir Francis I say this to you in love--If you have yet to place your trust in the death burial and physical resurrection of Jesus from the dead as the only acceptable payment for your sin debt before God the Father, then you are not born again. If you have done so- then that is the exact momnet when you were born again.

2 Corinthians 5:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

And you do not become a new creature in Christ until you accept the gospel message. That is Gods command not mans'
 
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holo

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So are you saying you lost faith because the gospel stopped making sense to you, ie the doctrines were incoherent and irrational? Because it's supposed to be fides et ratio, faith should make perfect sense. Christianity, especially in the West, has made such a meal of the 'ratio' part imho.
That's a big part of it, yes. The fact that the denominations all seem to disagree or pretty important stuff, and the lack of coherence. It's hard to change one's mind from what you've been brought up to believe, and in that regard stepping outside of the faith altogether has been a blessing, no pun intended. I can now read the bible without assumptions like "most people will go to hell," "hell is eternal torment," or - perhaps even more radically, "humans have free will" (as in, "God isn't sovereign and doesn't get what he wants). Ironically, in many cases the bible seems more coherent to me when not viewed from within the Christian paradigms.

But there's also of course the questions like "where's the proof that this is true?" I used to think I'd seen a lot of answered prayers and even miracles, but when I decided to be really, painfully honest, I realized I've never seen a single one. Sure, a lot of things have happened that might be God's work, but might simply isn't enough. If I'm going to give God credit for something, I figure I better be darn sure he actually did it and that it's not just my bias or wishful thinking.

Amen, but does it not do us well to participate? I mean, the ten commandments can be seen as reflections of the natural law (prior to the moral law). For instance, if you commit murder, bad consequences are liable to eventuate - that's just the way He's designed creation. Then revealed in Christ that woven into its fabric is grace and truth, His Salvation. Don't we need to cleave to that (despite all our stumbling and folly)?
From where I stand now, religion makes a lot of sense as a cultural phenomenon, and a way to sort of solidify principles and regulations that serve a community well. I always assumed that if I were to lose faith, my sense of morality would go with it, but on the contrary my moral values only seemed to improve. I guess in part because I no longer held values "because God wants it" or in order to escape punishment or earn a reward, but because it just seems self-evident that we should care for the poor, for example.

He made a lot of rules for the Muslims. But seriously, I do believe the scriptures can be understood harmoniously. But we're still not prepared to grant God absolute authority, and say 'thine will and not mine'. Self-denial is tough.
Sometimes I feel some animosity toward Christianity and religion in general, because there are so many ridiculous ideas, but lately I've become more aware of the values of religious or spiritual traditions. Self-denial is one of those concepts that I think can be of tremendous value, and religion can provide the perfect framework for it. Part of me wants to run the show all by myself, but there's another part of me that longs to submit and serve a higher cause.

That's the seed of Christian faith, isn't it?
The way I see it, yes. It seems to me that the fundamental message of the bible (if there is such a thing) has more to do with humility than to hold the exact correct doctrine.
 
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holo

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She wasn’t gassed, she died of Typhus.
I stand corrected, but I think my point still stands. Anne Frank is a useful example because so many know about her and have seen her picture, but the point could be made with any child (or adult for that matter) that died at the hands of the Nazis, probably while crying out for God to save them.
 
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holo

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God does not punish Jews for being Jewish
What exactly is God punishing her for then?

I do believe that God gave her as many chances to get out if it as he deemed fair.
Maybe. What does that mean for preaching the gospel? I mean, if God gives people a fair chance regardless, what's even the point of trying to convert people?

There may have even been a chance beyond the grave to accept Christ, but Scripture doesn't get into that enough for Christians to say it is definite.
It seems strange to me that the bible wouldn't be abundantly clear about something as important as that. Maybe it is, but most Christians have misunderstood it.
 
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Francis Drake

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But this does not tell a person how to be born again (saved, redeemed etc.) It just says that God is and He is eternally powerful.
Do you seriously expect that when God reveals himself, he demands people repeat your mantra before accepting them. All through scripture, OT and NT, it is humility before God alone that gains access.
Rev3v20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
Sounds pretty simple to me.
Nowhere do you find Jesus saying, "whoever repeats these words" I will come in and dine with him.
Too bad you reject the same Apostle when he writes that some one must confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in their heart God raised HIm from the dead in order to be saved and that it takes hearing the gospel message for that to happen!
To bad you don't bother to read the context of verses you keep posting. Paul was not addressing the unregenerate with your verses. They were aimed at the saints of Rome, those who were already born again!
Once again taking a verse on theology and applying it to soteriology is horrendous exegesis and understanding!
You can keep your big words, they don't count a jot when you can't address simple facts of scripture.
 
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