John 10:27 is a Policy Statement

FreeGrace2 · Mar 24, 2020

bcbsr said:
The way I see it is that John 10:27 which says, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me." is a descriptive statement of the saved. Granted it is not a condition for salvation but rather it is describing the behavior of those who have been saved. It's consistent with many other verses like 1John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

Exactly!

I realize Free Grace theology tends to have a problem with such an interpretation seeing as they deny the impact being born of God has on one's behavior.

No, they don't. They DO, however, understand that a change in behavior depends upon whether the believer is in fellowship with the Lord and is filled with the Spirit/walking by the Spirit, or whether the believer is out of fellowship with the Lord and grieving/quenching the Spirit.

And so they have to get around much of what the Bible says where it correlates behavior with salvation status.

A closer look at these verses reveals that behavior is being commanded for the saved.

Typically they make the false claim that the only other possible interpretation apart from Free Grace Theology is salvation by works, but in fact it's not the only alternative to Free Grace Theology.

No they don't. They are quite aware that there are 2 unbiblical and competing theologies, at least: Arminianism and Calvinism.

The alternative to Free Grace Theology that represents the view of many of us is simply that such verses which correlate behavior with salvation status are descriptive rather than prescriptive.

Commands are prescriptive, not descriptive. Much like "policy statements". The subject of this thread.

1John 3:9 for example is followed by "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." Obviously talking about identifying the saved, and not about how to get saved.

The original text doesn't include "a child". It says "is not of God".

It should be obvious that sin is never "of God".

FreeGrace2 · Mar 24, 2020

Phil W said:
You are insinuating that the gift of the Holy Ghost has no power...or limited power.

It seems you are just not understanding anything I post. I've never even suggested such nonsense. Which is just what your opinion is here.

The ONLY WAY to live the Christian life is by the power of the Holy Spirit. But believers get out of fellowship through sin, which is why 1 John 1:9 tells believers that if they confess their sins, they will be forgiven and cleansed and from the context, be back in fellowship with the Lord. Then, they are commanded to be filled with the Spirit. It is absurd to assume this is some kind of command for the unsaved to become saved. It's the ONLY WAY the believer accesses the power of the Spirit.

I've already explained Eph 5:18 and the contrast between being drunk with wine and filled with the Spirit. Did you not understand my explanation? Or did you not read it?

I can't agree.

That's your freedom. But the Bible disagrees with your opinions.

What is the use of a Spirit with no abilities?

What an absurd question. I never suggested such nonsense.

ONLY when the believer is filled with the Spirit do they have access to the Spirit's power. But I know that is foreign to your thinking, since you have been taught the false doctrine that the indwelling is the same thing as filling.

Were that the case, that believers sin, then the Holy Spirit is abiding in an unsanctified temple.

What you also fail to understand is that the Holy Spirit resides in the NEW NATURE that is the result of regeneration or being born again. But you don't believe that either.

It means "don't do it", as you finally realize.
Exhortations are not accusations.

Exhortations of actions that are automatic are stupid. No need for exhortations if said actions are automatic.

When was the last time you were exhorted to keep breathing?

Men are only believers as long as they believe.

Granted. So what, though? What you also fail to believe or understand is that from the MOMENT of saving faith in Christ, there are many things that occur that are PERMANENT. What verse teaches that any NT believer can lose the indwelling Holy Spirit? None. What verse teaches that any believer can ever be condemned? 2 verses specifically STATE that it is those who "have not believed" who will be condemned. The words "have not believed" means NEVER believed. What verse says that eternal life can die spiritually? None.

That's all nonsense. You have no verse that supports your presumptions.

Committing some sin will show that their belief was false.

Then prove your presumption with Scripture.

[QUTOE]By warning the believers to remain strong, avoid all appearance of evil, grieve not the Spirit, keep praying, be generous, forgive, obey, etc., the adherents will show their faith is real.[/QUOTE]
But your presumption is that genuine believers WON'T have an "appearance of evil, or grieve the Spirit, or stop praying, or not be generous, or not be forgiving, or not obeying, etc".

So, again, please explain WHY such warnings are in Scripture, if these actions CANNOT be done by genuine believers.

Keep the faith, study to show thyself approved, support the poor, pray in the Spirit, separate yourself from the unclean, do a communion service, examine yourselves; all ways to show our selves as real believers in a risen Son of God.

Yes, they DO show themselves as real believers. But what you seem to fail to understand, is that NONE of the verses SAYS that genuine believers cannot do such things.

But one would have had to read Paul's epistles to know that. I suggest you do read what Paul wrote.

And you still dismiss Paul's personal struggle with the sin nature in Romans 7 and his admission in 1 Tim 1:15.

Paul directly refutes your presumptions.

When truth is presented to someone and the person dismisses or rejects it, that does not bode well for the person.

Phil W · Mar 24, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
It seems you are just not understanding anything I post. I've never even suggested such nonsense. Which is just what your opinion is here.

The ONLY WAY to live the Christian life is by the power of the Holy Spirit. But believers get out of fellowship through sin, which is why 1 John 1:9 tells believers that if they confess their sins, they will be forgiven and cleansed and from the context, be back in fellowship with the Lord. Then, they are commanded to be filled with the Spirit. It is absurd to assume this is some kind of command for the unsaved to become saved. It's the ONLY WAY the believer accesses the power of the Spirit.

I've already explained Eph 5:18 and the contrast between being drunk with wine and filled with the Spirit. Did you not understand my explanation? Or did you not read it?

That's your freedom. But the Bible disagrees with your opinions.

What an absurd question. I never suggested such nonsense.

ONLY when the believer is filled with the Spirit do they have access to the Spirit's power. But I know that is foreign to your thinking, since you have been taught the false doctrine that the indwelling is the same thing as filling.

What you also fail to understand is that the Holy Spirit resides in the NEW NATURE that is the result of regeneration or being born again. But you don't believe that either.

Exhortations of actions that are automatic are stupid. No need for exhortations if said actions are automatic.

When was the last time you were exhorted to keep breathing?

Granted. So what, though? What you also fail to believe or understand is that from the MOMENT of saving faith in Christ, there are many things that occur that are PERMANENT. What verse teaches that any NT believer can lose the indwelling Holy Spirit? None. What verse teaches that any believer can ever be condemned? 2 verses specifically STATE that it is those who "have not believed" who will be condemned. The words "have not believed" means NEVER believed. What verse says that eternal life can die spiritually? None.

That's all nonsense. You have no verse that supports your presumptions.

Then prove your presumption with Scripture.

By warning the believers to remain strong, avoid all appearance of evil, grieve not the Spirit, keep praying, be generous, forgive, obey, etc., the adherents will show their faith is real.

Click to expand...

But your presumption is that genuine believers WON'T have an "appearance of evil, or grieve the Spirit, or stop praying, or not be generous, or not be forgiving, or not obeying, etc".

So, again, please explain WHY such warnings are in Scripture, if these actions CANNOT be done by genuine believers.

Yes, they DO show themselves as real believers. But what you seem to fail to understand, is that NONE of the verses SAYS that genuine believers cannot do such things.

But one would have had to read Paul's epistles to know that. I suggest you do read what Paul wrote.

And you still dismiss Paul's personal struggle with the sin nature in Romans 7 and his admission in 1 Tim 1:15.

Paul directly refutes your presumptions.

When truth is presented to someone and the person dismisses or rejects it, that does not bode well for the person.

Believers are "in Christ"...right?
There is no sin in Christ...right?
So how can believers be "in Christ if they commit sin?

If they were believers, they would accept that God's seed within them would be unable to produce devilish fruit.
Sinners don't believe.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 24, 2020

Phil W said:
Believers are "in Christ"...right?
There is no sin in Christ...right?
So how can believers be "in Christ if they commit sin?

You logic or conclusion is false. Being "in Christ" is a positional truth. Based on Eph 1-2. The Holy Spirit is IN believers, but that doesn't prevent sin, which is obvious throughout Scriptures.

If they were believers, they would accept that God's seed within them would be unable to produce devilish fruit.

You just don't understand. I don't even know what you mean by "they would accept that God's seed w/i them..".

The fact is that the Holy Spirit does indwell every believer. But, accessing His power is blocked when the believer grieves or quenches the Spirit. But you don't want to accept this FACT. Yet you talk about what believers supposedly "accept".

Sinners don't believe.

Tell that to Paul, the greatest theologican and evangelist the world has ever known, who told young Timothy that he was the greatest sinner. And he said it in the present tense, btw.

However, during my devotions this morning, I read the 2 epistles by Peter. So I'm going to share a number of verses that were addressed to THE ELECT, believers.

First, to prove that he was addressing SAVED people:
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

The red words confirm that Peter was addressing God's chosen, which are believers.
The blue words show that this election is according to God's foreknowledge.
The green words show the basis for the believer's election.
The purple words show the purpose of this election; TO BE obedient to Christ.

14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. Peter is telling his audience what NOT to do.
15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. This verse clearly teaches eternal security.

2-
1 Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. Here he is telling believers what to get rid of.
2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation Here, Peter is telling believers how to grow up in their salvation.
11 Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul. You deny this possibility, yet Peter is urging belieers to STOP sinful desires, which wage war against their soul. This is what I have been talking about; the spiritual struggle within the believer. But you just deny it.
16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves.
17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.
18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. These are commands of what believers ARE SUPPOSED TO DO.

3-
8 Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble.
9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.
10 For, “Whoever would love life and see good days must keep their tongue from evil and their lips from deceitful speech.

The red words is a command of what NOT to do. The blue words is the result of NOT repaying evil with evil. Note Peter told believers to not repay evil WITH EVIL. So they are surely able to do so.

15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, The red words is a command for believers to follow.

4-
7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray. Again, a command of what to DO. So they can pray.
17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

If you think the red words refer to loss of salvation, you would be in error. This is about God's discipline of His children. Heb 12:11.

2 Pet 1-
1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: These red words confirm that Peter was addressing believers. Saved.
2 Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.
Here, the red words refer to the indwelling Holy Spirit. But it's only potential. One must follow God's rules in order to access that power.

4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them (indwelling Holy Spirit) you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

The red words here refer to being filled with the Spirit. And the mood is subjunctive, meaning it's not a fact (that would be the indicative mood). "you MAY participate" means it is possible to participate, but one must follow the rules. v.5-8

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;
6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;
7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love.

The red words is a command about what to DO. The blue words are what to ADD to your faith.

8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. These red words are quite sobering. ONLY IF the believer adds the above blue words to their faith will they be kept from being ineffective and unproductive.

2-
7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless
8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)—

The red words indicate how the Bible describes Lot. The very man who got drunk and impregnated each of his daughters!! And the description of him being "righteous" was BEFORE he impregnated his daughters.

3:14 - So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.

To be "at peace with Him" means to be in fellowship with the Lord. No less than that.

Note that the believer is to "make EVERY EFFORT to be found spotless and blameless and at peace with Him".

Yet, your theology says this is automatic for a genuine believer, since they can't sin.

I'm sharing these verses to prove to you that your theology is not biblical.

Phil W · Mar 24, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
You logic or conclusion is false. Being "in Christ" is a positional truth. Based on Eph 1-2. The Holy Spirit is IN believers, but that doesn't prevent sin, which is obvious throughout Scriptures.

You just don't understand. I don't even know what you mean by "they would accept that God's seed w/i them..".

The fact is that the Holy Spirit does indwell every believer. But, accessing His power is blocked when the believer grieves or quenches the Spirit. But you don't want to accept this FACT. Yet you talk about what believers supposedly "accept".

Tell that to Paul, the greatest theologican and evangelist the world has ever known, who told young Timothy that he was the greatest sinner. And he said it in the present tense, btw.

However, during my devotions this morning, I read the 2 epistles by Peter. So I'm going to share a number of verses that were addressed to THE ELECT, believers.

First, to prove that he was addressing SAVED people:
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

The red words confirm that Peter was addressing God's chosen, which are believers.
The blue words show that this election is according to God's foreknowledge.
The green words show the basis for the believer's election.
The purple words show the purpose of this election; TO BE obedient to Christ.

14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. Peter is telling his audience what NOT to do.
15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. This verse clearly teaches eternal security.

2-
1 Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. Here he is telling believers what to get rid of.
2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation Here, Peter is telling believers how to grow up in their salvation.
11 Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul. You deny this possibility, yet Peter is urging belieers to STOP sinful desires, which wage war against their soul. This is what I have been talking about; the spiritual struggle within the believer. But you just deny it.
16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves.
17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.
18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. These are commands of what believers ARE SUPPOSED TO DO.

3-
8 Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble.
9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.
10 For, “Whoever would love life and see good days must keep their tongue from evil and their lips from deceitful speech.

The red words is a command of what NOT to do. The blue words is the result of NOT repaying evil with evil. Note Peter told believers to not repay evil WITH EVIL. So they are surely able to do so.

15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, The red words is a command for believers to follow.

4-
7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray. Again, a command of what to DO. So they can pray.
17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

If you think the red words refer to loss of salvation, you would be in error. This is about God's discipline of His children. Heb 12:11.

2 Pet 1-
1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: These red words confirm that Peter was addressing believers. Saved.
2 Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.
Here, the red words refer to the indwelling Holy Spirit. But it's only potential. One must follow God's rules in order to access that power.

4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them (indwelling Holy Spirit) you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

The red words here refer to being filled with the Spirit. And the mood is subjunctive, meaning it's not a fact (that would be the indicative mood). "you MAY participate" means it is possible to participate, but one must follow the rules. v.5-8

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;
6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;
7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love.

The red words is a command about what to DO. The blue words are what to ADD to your faith.

8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. These red words are quite sobering. ONLY IF the believer adds the above blue words to their faith will they be kept from being ineffective and unproductive.

2-
7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless
8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)—

The red words indicate how the Bible describes Lot. The very man who got drunk and impregnated each of his daughters!! And the description of him being "righteous" was BEFORE he impregnated his daughters.

3:14 - So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.

To be "at peace with Him" means to be in fellowship with the Lord. No less than that.

Note that the believer is to "make EVERY EFFORT to be found spotless and blameless and at peace with Him".

Yet, your theology says this is automatic for a genuine believer, since they can't sin.

I'm sharing these verses to prove to you that your theology is not biblical.

I sure am grateful to God almighty for my belief in victory over sin "in Christ".

FreeGrace2 · Mar 24, 2020

Phil W said:
I sure am grateful to God almighty for my belief in victory over sin "in Christ".

I am too. But being "in Christ" doesn't mean that believers can't grieve the Holy Spirit or quench Him.

What in the world do you think grieving/quenching means?

And didn't you read any of the verses from 1 and 2 Peter?

Phil W · Mar 24, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
I am too. But being "in Christ" doesn't mean that believers can't grieve the Holy Spirit or quench Him.

Yes it does. (1 John 3:9)
There is no sin in Christ, so there is no sinner "in Christ" either.

What in the world do you think grieving/quenching means?

Sinning.

And didn't you read any of the verses from 1 and 2 Peter?

I've read 1 Peter 4:1..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"

Exhortations are not accusations.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 25, 2020

I said:
"But being "in Christ" doesn't mean that believers can't grieve the Holy Spirit or quench Him."

Phil W said:
Yes it does. (1 John 3:9)

No it doesn't. And Paul completely refutes your assumptions. He commands believers to NOT grieve/quench the Holy Spirit. How can you believe those don't include sin?

There is no sin in Christ, so there is no sinner "in Christ" either.

We are all sinners, you included. Even Paul acknowledged that he was a sinner.

1 Tim 1:15 - Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

He was speaking in the present tense. I'm just amazed at the ease in which you dismiss or ignore the very clear language of Scripture.

I asked:
"What in the world do you think grieving/quenching means?"

Sinning.

There you go. And your claim is that genuine believers are not sinners. So why would Paul command believers to NOT sin?

And you haven't addressed any of the verses from Peter that deal with sin in the believer's life.

I've read 1 Peter 4:1..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"

So, are you arguing that Peter and Paul disagreed??

From Dr Utley's (a hermeneutics professor) commentary on this verse:

"because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin" This phrase can be interpreted in several ways depending on the grammatical form. Christ is our example in suffering innocently, even vicariously (AORIST ACTIVE PARTICIPLE). Believers are now involved in suffering because of their identification with Him.

The main VERB can be either MIDDLE (A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament, p. 121) or PASSIVE (Moulton's Analytical Greek Lexicon and Barbara and Tim Friberg's Analytical Greek New Testament). If it is MIDDLE it is encouraging believers to be actively involved in not sinning as followers of Christ's example. If PASSIVE it is emphasizing the spiritual fact of the believer's deliverance from the power of sin.

1 Peter 4

So either way, whether middle or passive voice, the explanation refutes your opinion.

Exhortations are not accusations.

This is a dodge of the issue. An exhortation by Paul is for those who are CAPABLE of actions that they shouldn't do. Same as a warning.

There is no need for warning of actions that a person is incapable of doing.

Or warning of actions that a person automatically does, like breathing.

So, either way, you just keep missing the point.

Paul admitted that he was a sinner, using the present tense. Meaning "right now", or "currently". But go ahead and ignore the Holy Spirit breathed words that Paul wrote.

Phil W · Mar 25, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:
"But being "in Christ" doesn't mean that believers can't grieve the Holy Spirit or quench Him."
No it doesn't. And Paul completely refutes your assumptions. He commands believers to NOT grieve/quench the Holy Spirit. How can you believe those don't include sin?

And the believers comply.

We are all sinners, you included. Even Paul acknowledged that he was a sinner.

No,I am not a sinner.
I am a new creature reborn of God's seed.
I cannot bear the fruit of the devil.

1 Tim 1:15 - Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

The worst indeed, as he once persecuted the church.
Do you really think he was still persecuting the church?

He was speaking in the present tense. I'm just amazed at the ease in which you dismiss or ignore the very clear language of Scripture.

He is the worst of those saved.

From Dr Utley's (a hermeneutics professor) commentary on this verse:
"because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin" This phrase can be interpreted in several ways depending on the grammatical form. Christ is our example in suffering innocently, even vicariously (AORIST ACTIVE PARTICIPLE). Believers are now involved in suffering because of their identification with Him.

Without knowing whether or not he himself has "ceased from sin", I can only presume he hasn't, from his words.
I suffered with Christ when I was crucified and buried with Him at my baptism into Him and into His death, burial, and resurrection. (Rom 6:3-6)

The main VERB can be either MIDDLE (A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament, p. 121) or PASSIVE (Moulton's Analytical Greek Lexicon and Barbara and Tim Friberg's Analytical Greek New Testament).
If it is MIDDLE it is encouraging believers to be actively involved in not sinning as followers of Christ's example.
If PASSIVE it is emphasizing the spiritual fact of the believer's deliverance from the power of sin.

Why can't your expert tell which it is?

There is no need for warning of actions that a person is incapable of doing.
Or warning of actions that a person automatically does, like breathing.

I can't agree with that.
We walk a fine line while here in the skin, with constant temptation and reminders of the squalid past we one craved to no end.
The devil works harder on those in Christ than on the general unbelievers.
I myself appreciate the warnings and admonissions to be constantly an alert.
It is too easy to get lax, and then a fall.

You say "incapable of doing", but the giving away of our souls, of our faith, of our purity and hope in the Lord is made easy by the devil.

Paul admitted that he was a sinner, using the present tense. Meaning "right now", or "currently". But go ahead and ignore the Holy Spirit breathed words that Paul wrote.

You missed the point while seeking justification for sin.
He admitted he was saved.
Christians are saved from the power of sin.
The Messiah came to save the Jews: not from the Romans, but from the sin that thwarted their love of God.
Those "in Christ" partake in that victory over sin.
Those who still commit sin are not "in Christ"...as there is no sin "in Christ".[/QUOTE]

FreeGrace2 · Mar 26, 2020

Phil W said:
And the believers comply.

The fact that believers are commanded means they ARE SUPPOSED TO.

No,I am not a sinner.

This is what the Bible says about those who make this claim.

1 John 1:8 - If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

I am a new creature reborn of God's seed.

And as long as you are in fellowship with the Lord and filled with the Spirit, you won't sin.

I cannot bear the fruit of the devil.

The Bible describes you as self deceived and having no truth in you.

The worst indeed, as he once persecuted the church.

You're referring to his past tense, but Paul used the present tense. Why do you ignore that FACT?

Do you really think he was still persecuting the church?

Of course he wasn't. He was teaching them vital doctrines. But he knew his sinful nature. The nature you deny that you still have. But do have.

He is the worst of those saved.

If your claim that true believers aren't sinners, then please your new position here that Paul, a true believer is "the worst" of those saved.

Your statement is incongruous with all your previous claims.

I said:
"From Dr Utley's (a hermeneutics professor) commentary on this verse:
"because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin"This phrase can be interpreted in several ways depending on the grammatical form. Christ is our example in suffering innocently, even vicariously (AORIST ACTIVE PARTICIPLE). Believers are now involved in suffering because of their identification with Him."

Without knowing whether or not he himself has "ceased from sin", I can only presume he hasn't, from his words.

Are you referring to Dr Utley or his explanation of what Paul wrote?

I suffered with Christ when I was crucified and buried with Him at my baptism into Him and into His death, burial, and resurrection. (Rom 6:3-6)

You are missing Utley's point; tht believers suffer BECAUSE OF THEIR IDENTIFICATION WITH HIM.

I said:
"The main VERB can be either MIDDLE (A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament, p. 121) or PASSIVE (Moulton's Analytical Greek Lexicon and Barbara and Tim Friberg's Analytical Greek New Testament).
If it is MIDDLE it is encouraging believers to be actively involved in not sinning as followers of Christ's example.
If PASSIVE it is emphasizing the spiritual fact of the believer's deliverance from the power of sin."

Why can't your expert tell which it is?

Because in the Greek, some of the words can mean either middle or passive. In fact, scholars commonly refer to such words as "middle/passive".

From: The Middle Voice: Part I – Ancient Greek for Everyone

So far, all verbs that we have discussed have been in the ACTIVE VOICE. In this lesson, we introduce the MIDDLE VOICE. Voice, you will recall, indicates the role that the subject plays in the action of the verb.

ACTIVE VOICE: The subject causes the action.
- I move the car.
PASSIVE VOICE: The subject receives the consequences of the action.
- The car was moved.
MIDDLE VOICE: The subject is part or all of the action. In other words, the subject is both the cause and the focus, the agent and experiencer, of a verbal action.
- I moved (myself).

Verbs in the MIDDLE VOICE are extremely common in Greek, and appear in most Greek sentences. A clearer picture of how the MIDDLE VOICE works can be seen if we compare it to the other two voices.

Passive vs. Middle Voice:

It is tempting, as English speakers, to think of the ACTIVE and PASSIVE VOICE as opposing poles, between which is located the MIDDLE VOICE. Certainly the English terminology for the three voices suggests this conception. It is important to understand, however, that the fundamental dichotomy for Greeks was actually between ACTIVE and MIDDLE.

Greek originally inflected verbs to indicate ACTIVE and MIDDLE VOICES. There were no distinct PASSIVE forms, nor does that voice seem to have been used. As the need for the PASSIVE VOICE emerged, Classical and Koine Greek used the MIDDLE VOICE forms of the verb to represent also the PASSIVE VOICE (S 1735). This makes sense, when we realize that the difference between the MIDDLE and PASSIVE could at times be almost indistinguishable for Greeks.

Also, check out this link:
Ancient Greek Voice | Carl W. Conrad

That's why. Thanks for asking.

I said:
"There is no need for warning of actions that a person is incapable of doing.
Or warning of actions that a person automatically does, like breathing."

I can't agree with that.

Why not? It's more than just logical. It's absolutely common sense. Unless one does not grasp the meaning of a warning.

A warning is about not doing what one is capable of doing but would not be beneficial to the person if they did it.

A warning is totally worthless and irrelevant to someone who isn't capable of doing the action.

I can't imagine how this isn't very clear to everyone.

We walk a fine line while here in the skin, with constant temptation and reminders of the squalid past we one craved to no end.

But your pov is that true believers, being new creatures, cannot sin. They don't have the capacity to sin. So what does "constant temptation" or "constant reminders of one's squalid past" have to do with one's new creature status?

This is what you haven't addressed and explained clearly. As it is, your pov is irrational and illogical.

The devil works harder on those in Christ than on the general unbelievers.

Shouldn't matter one bit IF believers can't sin. So, again, your pov doesn't make sense. It's irrational and illogical. And you can't explain your statements here, given your previous claims about sinlessness.

I myself appreciate the warnings and admonissions to be constantly an alert.

Why? You've claimed to be sinless. Are you now admitting that you have the capability or capacity or ability to sin??

It is too easy to get lax, and then a fall.

So now you ARE admitting that you can sin.

You say "incapable of doing", but the giving away of our souls, of our faith, of our purity and hope in the Lord is made easy by the devil.

Can you provide any verse that supports this line of thinking?

I said:
"Paul admitted that he was a sinner, using the present tense. Meaning "right now", or "currently". But go ahead and ignore the Holy Spirit breathed words that Paul wrote."

You missed the point while seeking justification for sin.
He admitted he was saved.
Christians are saved from the power of sin.
The Messiah came to save the Jews: not from the Romans, but from the sin that thwarted their love of God.
Those "in Christ" partake in that victory over sin.
Those who still commit sin are not "in Christ"...as there is no sin "in Christ".

Well, more waffling on your pov.

Now you're insinuating that believers (those in Christ) cannot sin.

You need to get back to the drawing board and actually figure out your pov. As it is, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth, and that is contradictory, irrational and illogical.

At the same time, you claim as being "in Christ" or a "new creature" you cannot sin, AND, the warning and reminders help you keep from sinning.

You're pov makes no sense.

You have a lot to explain.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 26, 2020

To all;

There are many believers who claim to be without sin. They base this on 2 Cor 5:17, that they are "new creatures" and "the old is gone", a reference to no longer having their sinful nature. They also read 1 John 3:9 as saying that those who have been born again will not sin, because the new nature cannot sin.

Yet, the Bible is very clear about those who make the claim that they "aren't a sinner", as Phil W did in his last post.

1 John 1:8 - If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

This couldn't be more clear. And directly applies to Phil W. He claims to be without sin; that he is not a sinner.

Those who make this claim are described as being self deceived and not having the truth in them.

iow, they believe a LIE and lack truth.

So, it is clear from Scripture that these self deceived and no truth people do not understand 2 Cor 5:17 and 1 John 3:9.

Phil W · Mar 26, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
The fact that believers are commanded means they ARE SUPPOSED TO.

And the believers comply.

This is what the Bible says about those who make this claim.
1 John 1:8 - If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

John is writing about two entirely different groups of people in chapter i of 1 John.
Those who walk in the light, who CAN say they have fellowship with God and His Son, and have had ALL their past sins washed away by the blood of Christ.
And Those who walk in darkness-sin.
They can neither say they have fellowship with God or that they have no sin.
But if ALL our sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ, and we continue walking in the light-God, why can't we say we have no sin?

You are mistakenly applying the parts about those that walk in darkness to those that walk in light.

And as long as you are in fellowship with the Lord and filled with the Spirit, you won't sin.

So keep walking in the light !
Nothing can pluck you out if Father's hand, you know?

But your pov is that true believers, being new creatures, cannot sin. They don't have the capacity to sin. So what does "constant temptation" or "constant reminders of one's squalid past" have to do with one's new creature status?

It is up to us to continue walking in the light, as new creatures.
But we can give it all up in a second.
We are at war, and the battles will not end till we are called home.

Why? You've claimed to be sinless. Are you now admitting that you have the capability or capacity or ability to sin??

I don't think I ever denied that I had the ability to betray Father.
But I treat the exhortations and admonissions seriously, for my own salvation.

Can you provide any verse that supports this line of thinking?

Sure...Gal 5:4..."Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."
And...Heb 4:11..."Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."
And...Heb 6:6..."If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
And...Gal 5:12..."But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."
And...2 Peter 1:12..."Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
And...2 Peter 3:17..."Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."
Only those really born of God can hold on to their steadfastness.

Now you're insinuating that believers (those in Christ) cannot sin.

Insinuating?
No. I'm screaming it.
There is no sin in Christ, and those who have taken refuge therein have no sin on them either.

Our future salvation is up to us.
Obey the exhortations and live forever.

Phil W · Mar 26, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
To all;

There are many believers who claim to be without sin. They base this on 2 Cor 5:17, that they are "new creatures" and "the old is gone", a reference to no longer having their sinful nature. They also read 1 John 3:9 as saying that those who have been born again will not sin, because the new nature cannot sin.

Yet, the Bible is very clear about those who make the claim that they "aren't a sinner", as Phil W did in his last post.

1 John 1:8 - If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

This couldn't be more clear. And directly applies to Phil W. He claims to be without sin; that he is not a sinner.

Those who make this claim are described as being self deceived and not having the truth in them.

iow, they believe a LIE and lack truth.

So, it is clear from Scripture that these self deceived and no truth people do not understand 2 Cor 5:17 and 1 John 3:9.

I hope my last post cleared up your misunderstanding of 1 John 1:8.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 26, 2020

I said:
"The fact that believers are commanded means they ARE SUPPOSED TO"

Phil W said:
And the believers comply.

You simply misunderstand policy statement from reality.

John is writing about two entirely different groups of people in chapter i of 1 John.

No, he is not. He is writing to believers, that they would make his joy complete by being in fellowship with him and with the Lord.

3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
4 We write this to make our joy complete.

Those who walk in the light, who CAN say they have fellowship with God and His Son, and have had ALL their past sins washed away by the blood of Christ.

Where do you get the notion of only "past sins" since there is nothing in John's epistle that mentions "past sins" at all.

And Those who walk in darkness-sin.

Believers who are not in fellowship with the Lord.

They can neither say they have fellowship with God or that they have no sin.

Exactly!

But if ALL our sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ, and we continue walking in the light-God, why can't we say we have no sin?

Because of what the Bible teaches, esp v.8 which directly applies to yourself.

" If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

You claim that you are without sin. And so John describes you thusly: self deceived and the truth is not in you.

You are mistakenly applying the parts about those that walk in darkness to those that walk in light.

I'm not. Believers are either IN fellowship with the Lord or OUT OF fellowship with Him.

But you seem to deny that. All you see is either saved or unsaved.

So keep walking in the light !

Which is a far cry from saying "so keep staying saved".

Nothing can pluck you out if Father's hand, you know?

I do know that. Do you believe that? I mean, apart from anything you do after receiving the gift of eternal life?

It is up to us to continue walking in the light, as new creatures.

Well, not really. It is up to us to be in fellowship, by confessing our sins (or else why did John write v.9), and to be filled with the Spirit, as opposed to grieving or quenching Him.

But we can give it all up in a second.

Yes, we can get OUT OF fellowship and grieve or quench the Spirit at any time.

We are at war, and the battles will not end till we are called home.

That is biblical, but has nothing to do with losing salvation.

I don't think I ever denied that I had the ability to betray Father.

What you have denied is that you ever sin. In fact, you have cited 2 Cor 5:17 and claimed that you cannot sin because you are a new creature.

But I treat the exhortations and admonissions seriously, for my own salvation.

But exhortations and admonitions are about behavior. So, basically, you are trusting in YOUR OWN behavior for your own salvation. How sad.

Do you not realize how much that insults Christ and His work on the cross on your behalf?

I asked this:
"Can you provide any verse that supports this line of thinking?"

in response to your comment:
"You say "incapable of doing", but the giving away of our souls, of our faith, of our purity and hope in the Lord is made easy by the devil."

Sure...Gal 5:4..."Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

To be "fallen from grace" is a reference to being out of fellowship with Him. This says nothing about "giving away of our souls".

And...Heb 4:11..."Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."
And...Heb 6:6..."If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
And...Gal 5:12..."But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."
And...2 Peter 1:12..."Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
And...2 Peter 3:17..."Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."
Only those really born of God can hold on to their steadfastness.

And none of these verses speaks of "giving away of our souls".

So, you don't have any supporting verses then.

I said this:
"Now you're insinuating that believers (those in Christ) cannot sin."

Insinuating?
No. I'm screaming it.

And this is your dilemma. You claim you cannot sin, yet you acknowledge the "exhortations and admonitions" to not sin. But you don't even realize that this is totally contradictory internally.

There is no sin in Christ, and those who have taken refuge therein have no sin on them either.

Yet John described those who claim to be "without sin" as being self DECEIVED and having NO TRUTH in them.

Our future salvation is up to us.

Unbelievable statement of blasphemy. Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our salvation.

This just proves that you don't believe that you are held in His hands, as you noted above.

Heb 12:2 - looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Obey the exhortations and live forever.

No. That is purely a works salvation deal. And blasphemes the work of Christ.

We receive the gift of eternal life (to live forever) on the sole basis of faith in Christ.

The moment one believes in Christ for salvation, he/she HAS (as in current possession) eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

There are zero, zilch, nada, NO verses that say obedience to exhortations lead to living forever.

These 4 verses directly refute your opinions.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 26, 2020

Phil W said:
I hope my last post cleared up your misunderstanding of 1 John 1:8.

You didn't even mention the verse. And the verse is clear. Those who claim to be "without sin", as YOU DO, are self deceived and have NO TRUTH in them.

Please note to whom v.8 applies.

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

John was including himself as one who could or might make that claim.

iow, he was saying "If ANY BELIEVER claims to be without sin, that believer deceives him/herself and the truth is not in him/her."

That's exactly what was meant by the "we".

You can't escape FACTS.

But, how about this. Please paraphrase v.8 so I can understand how your mind works when reading words.

Phil W · Mar 26, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:
"The fact that believers are commanded means they ARE SUPPOSED TO"
You simply misunderstand policy statement from reality.

So in your eyes the church of God is just wishes with no results?
That is what I see from you.
Unaccomplished policy.

Where do you get the notion of only "past sins" since there is nothing in John's epistle that mentions "past sins" at all.

From Rom 3:25..."Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

Well, not really. It is up to us to be in fellowship, by confessing our sins (or else why did John write v.9), and to be filled with the Spirit, as opposed to grieving or quenching Him.

What point is there in confession if the sins never disappear?
That would be the end results if we can never say we are without sin...right?

The confession is done before we are washed of them by the blood of Christ.
Just as written in Matt 3:6 and Mark 1:5.

What you have denied is that you ever sin. In fact, you have cited 2 Cor 5:17 and claimed that you cannot sin because you are a new creature.

Yes, old things have passed away...including the old nature.
This ties in nicely with Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
No old nature of Adam, and no lusts...thanks be to God.

But exhortations and admonitions are about behavior. So, basically, you are trusting in YOUR OWN behavior for your own salvation. How sad.

Trusting?
More like manifesting the grace and mercy of God in my new creature's life.
I trust in God to supply the escapes from temptation written of in 1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
You, on the other hand, seem to trust you will earn salvation without obedience to God.
That is sad.

I said this:
"Now you're insinuating that believers (those in Christ) cannot sin."
And this is your dilemma. You claim you cannot sin, yet you acknowledge the "exhortations and admonitions" to not sin. But you don't even realize that this is totally contradictory internally.

And I won't commit sin because those born of God's seed CAN obey the exhortations of Jesus and His disciples.
Those not reborn of Godly seed cannot do that.

Yet John described those who claim to be "without sin" as being self DECEIVED and having NO TRUTH in them.

He is correct...if that one is walking in darkness.
But those who are walking in the light/God have had ALL their sins washed away by the blood of Christ, and can say they have no sin.
You seem to have a problem differentiating between folks who walk in the light/God, and those who walk in darkness/sin.
Can you tell the difference?

We receive the gift of eternal life (to live forever) on the sole basis of faith in Christ.

Won't that "faith" be manifested by loving and obeying God?
I sure think so.

The moment one believes in Christ for salvation, he/she HAS (as in current possession) eternal life.

I can agree with that point, until the faith is shown to be false.

John 5
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Let's toss in 1 John 5:18 to finish off your conclusion..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

There are zero, zilch, nada, NO verses that say obedience to exhortations lead to living forever.

I could repeat 1 John 5:18, but will instead use Rom 6:16..."Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Liars, thieves, adulterers, murders, and blasphemers are servants to sin, and not to God.
They will be lost without a true turn from sin.

Phil W · Mar 26, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
You didn't even mention the verse. And the verse is clear. Those who claim to be "without sin", as YOU DO, are self deceived and have NO TRUTH in them.

Were I still walking in darkness it would apply to me.
But I walk in the light, and all my sins were washed away by the blood of Christ.

But, how about this. Please paraphrase v.8 so I can understand how your mind works when reading words.

Sure...
If we are walking in darkness, and claim we are walking in the light, we deceive our selves and the truth is not in us.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 27, 2020

I said:
"The fact that believers are commanded means they ARE SUPPOSED TO"
You simply misunderstand policy statement from reality.

Phil W said:
So in your eyes the church of God is just wishes with no results?

Like I said, you simply don't understand what a policy statement is.

That is what I see from you.
Unaccomplished policy.

How do you see "unaccomplished policy" from me? You stalking me or something? So don't get on your high horse about what anyone else is doing.

The fact that you repeatedly show that you don't understand what policy statements are, and that you flatly deny that believers can sin only proves that you don't understand very much of the Bible.

1 John 1:8 directly applies to your own claims.

I said:
"Where do you get the notion of only "past sins" since there is nothing in John's epistle that mentions "past sins" at all."

From Rom 3:25..."Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

I suppose you think this verse shows that Christ only died for sins before one believes in Him. And the POINT is that John never mentioned "past sins" at all.

However, let's look at context for your misunderstood verse:
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

So, what you call "past sins" (the red words) really refers to the sins committed BEFORE Christ went to the cross. By people who lived BEFORE Christ went to the cross. So the verse doesn't say that Christ only died for sins before a person believes, leaving sins after he believes uncovered.

What point is there in confession if the sins never disappear?

OK, an object lesson to help you understand the purpose in confession, since you don't even believe it is necessary for true believers.

If you walk on a dirty street and then enter the house of your friend, do you wipe your feet before entering, or just barge in? Now, did that one act of wiping your feet mean that you NO LONGER EVER have to do that again, in spite of walking on a dirty street over and over? Of course not.

I use that example because that is exactly what Jesus had in mind when He had to school ol' Peter in John 13 about feet washing. Jesus initially did that to all the disciples to demonstrate humility to them. But ol' Peter got sideways with Jesus and didn't understand what Jesus was doing (demonstrating humility). Pete only saw the act as humiliation, not humility, since only the lowest servants in a household washed the feet of those entering the house. It was a very dirty job, since in those days everyone walked everywhere, and the paths they used were also used by donkeys, etc. So walking in animal feces was the norm. Of course they practiced foot washing in those days. It was mandatory (necessary) for not mucking up a house or business.

So when Jesus came up to Pete, and he said "no", Jesus told him:
8 “No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”

So Pete went overboard:
9 “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!” iow, he wanted a full bath, not just his feet.

But Jesus wasn't referring to salvation, but rather having fellowship with Him. We know this because of what Jesus clarified:
10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”
11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

The red words refer to being saved. The blue words refer to Judas, who was NOT SAVED.

So, "having no part with Me" refers to fellowship.

Let's go back to my example of your dirty feet (covered in feces), and you just barging in to your friend's house. Would that offend your friend? You better believe it would. And any fellowship that you were expecting from your visit would be ended.

The ONLY WAY to avoid offending and have fellowship with your friend would be to WIPE YOUR FEET before entering his house.

That is the point of confession. As believers "walk through life", they get their "feet dirty" (sin in their life) and need to have them cleaned up.

But you have been grossly misled into believing that there are only 2 conditions:
either one is constantly sinning (unbelievers) or never sinning (believers). And the Bible NEVER teaches such nonsense.

So I don't expect that my example and explanation will make a difference.

That would be the end results if we can never say we are without sin...right?

I have no idea what you are thinking of here. The problem is your presumption of there being only 2 conditions; always sinning or never sinning.

In fact, sin is an occurrence. It's not an on-going state of being. It's WHEN a believer sins that they need to confess it. To be forgiven and CLEANSED (purified) from it, just like when you'd better wipe your filthy feet before entering your friend's house after walking on a filthy street.

Have you ever, or someone else, stepped in dog pooh without knowing it and then entered a building? Soon, everyone around knows what happened and the smell is everywhere. You or that someone else, has just offended everyone by your carelessness.

Sin is that way to God. He is offended by sin, and that is why believers MUST recognize when they have sinned so they can confess it for forgiveness and cleansing.

Just like when you or someone else realizes (finally) that the smell is coming from you (or them) and you go back outside to clean off your shoes, or feet, if you prefer to be barefoot. This is akin to confession for forgiveness and cleansing. The others you have offended can forgive you because you acknowledged your own stinky filthy feet and you got them cleaned off so no more offense.

The confession is done before we are washed of them by the blood of Christ.
Just as written in Matt 3:6 and Mark 1:5.

Totally misunderstanding. I have just given you a thorough explanation of how life was in 1st Century Palestine and why foot washing was necessary; to avoid offending others. And Jesus used that to demonstrate fellowship with Himself. But sin offends Him and ends fellowship. So we, the offenders, must confess sin when we commit sin, in order to restore fellowship and be cleansed.

Yes, old things have passed away...including the old nature.

This is only your presumption. The verse doesn't say that. And Paul referred to his "flesh" as the source of his own sins. And he used the PRESENT TENSE in his explanation, which again refutes your presumptions.

This ties in nicely with Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

This refers to what is called positional truth. Not experiential truth. But I sense that you don't know about this either.

No old nature of Adam, and no lusts...thanks be to God.[/QUOTRE]
Unbiblical to the core.

You, on the other hand, seem to trust you will earn salvation without obedience to God.
That is sad.

Click to expand...

Actually, what is sad is your "earn salvation" comment. This clearly shows that you know nothing of what grace even means. Salvation is NOT EARNED. It is given in grace.

And I won't commit sin because those born of God's seed CAN obey the exhortations of Jesus and His disciples.

Click to expand...

Regardless of your protestations or brags, 1 John 1:9 IS for the believer, who sins and needs forgiveness and cleansing. But go ahead and ignore all that.

Those not reborn of Godly seed cannot do that.

Click to expand...

They can't because they do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. And this is another subject that you have shown no understanding of. You presume indwelling and filling are one and the same. Couldn't be farther from the truth.

Indwelling is about presence in the believer. Filling is about power to live the Christian life. But go ahead and ignore all that.

He is correct...if that one is walking in darkness.
But those who are walking in the light/God have had ALL their sins washed away by the blood of Christ, and can say they have no sin.

Click to expand...

No, 1 John 1:8 describes ANY believer who claims to be "without sin" to be self deceived and the truth is not in them". And you demonstrate that all the time.

You have no understanding of these things:
difference between indwelling and filling of the Holy Spirit
need for confession and why
1 John 1:8 being directly applicable to yourself
believe only 2 states: always sinning or never sinning

You seem to have a problem differentiating between folks who walk in the light/God, and those who walk in darkness/sin.

Click to expand...

No, the problem of differentiating is all yours. As I have listed above.

Can you tell the difference?

Click to expand...

Of course. Unlike yourself. You deny the very concept of fellowship, even though the Bible tells us to have fellowship with the Lord many times.

Won't that "faith" be manifested by loving and obeying God?
I sure think so.

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You think a lot of things that aren't biblical.

Let's toss in 1 John 5:18 to finish off your conclusion..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

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<sigh> The reference to being "born of God" is about the new nature, which cannot sin. But what you keep denying is that the believer continues to possess their "flesh", or sinful nature. The one Paul explained in detail in Romans 7.

I could repeat 1 John 5:18, but will instead use Rom 6:16..."Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

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This is for believers. When a believer chooses to yield to their human nature, they are servants of sin. But when a believer chooses to yield to the Holy Spirit, they will produce the "fruit of the Spirit" and cannot sin when doing that.

You simply fail to see that believers continue to have their sin nature, until physical death, when our souls/spirits will be separated from our corrupted bodies. And at the resurrection, we get NEW resurrection bodies, without the sin nature.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 27, 2020

I said:
"You didn't even mention the verse. And the verse is clear. Those who claim to be "without sin", as YOU DO, are self deceived and have NO TRUTH in them."

Phil W said:
Were I still walking in darkness it would apply to me.

Since you deny the ability to sin, you cannot understand this verse. But it still applies to you, even though ignorant of that fact.

But I walk in the light, and all my sins were washed away by the blood of Christ.

Not when you sin, which, of course, you will deny.

Sure...
If we are walking in darkness, and claim we are walking in the light, we deceive our selves and the truth is not in us.

That's not what the verse says. It's clear enough. You have no excuse for your presumptions.

v.8 describes believers who "claim to be without sin". That is exactly what you are doing. How can you not see that?

Because of that, and all the verses you have to deny to hold to your presumptions, you yourself are walking in darkness. That means you are not in alignment with the truth of Scripture.

Your "truth" is a lie.

Believers have a sinful nature. Rom 7
Believers need to confess their sins when they sin. 1 John 1:9
The Spirit's indwelling and filling are very different. Acts 10:44
Fellowship with the Lord is broken by sin. John 13

Gr8Grace · Mar 27, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:
"The fact that believers are commanded means they ARE SUPPOSED TO"
You simply misunderstand policy statement from reality.

Like I said, you simply don't understand what a policy statement is.

How do you see "unaccomplished policy" from me? You stalking me or something? So don't get on your high horse about what anyone else is doing.

The fact that you repeatedly show that you don't understand what policy statements are, and that you flatly deny that believers can sin only proves that you don't understand very much of the Bible.

1 John 1:8 directly applies to your own claims.

I said:
"Where do you get the notion of only "past sins" since there is nothing in John's epistle that mentions "past sins" at all."

I suppose you think this verse shows that Christ only died for sins before one believes in Him. And the POINT is that John never mentioned "past sins" at all.

However, let's look at context for your misunderstood verse:
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

So, what you call "past sins" (the red words) really refers to the sins committed BEFORE Christ went to the cross. By people who lived BEFORE Christ went to the cross. So the verse doesn't say that Christ only died for sins before a person believes, leaving sins after he believes uncovered.

OK, an object lesson to help you understand the purpose in confession, since you don't even believe it is necessary for true believers.

If you walk on a dirty street and then enter the house of your friend, do you wipe your feet before entering, or just barge in? Now, did that one act of wiping your feet mean that you NO LONGER EVER have to do that again, in spite of walking on a dirty street over and over? Of course not.

I use that example because that is exactly what Jesus had in mind when He had to school ol' Peter in John 13 about feet washing. Jesus initially did that to all the disciples to demonstrate humility to them. But ol' Peter got sideways with Jesus and didn't understand what Jesus was doing (demonstrating humility). Pete only saw the act as humiliation, not humility, since only the lowest servants in a household washed the feet of those entering the house. It was a very dirty job, since in those days everyone walked everywhere, and the paths they used were also used by donkeys, etc. So walking in animal feces was the norm. Of course they practiced foot washing in those days. It was mandatory (necessary) for not mucking up a house or business.

So when Jesus came up to Pete, and he said "no", Jesus told him:
8 “No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”

So Pete went overboard:
9 “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!” iow, he wanted a full bath, not just his feet.

But Jesus wasn't referring to salvation, but rather having fellowship with Him. We know this because of what Jesus clarified:
10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”
11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

The red words refer to being saved. The blue words refer to Judas, who was NOT SAVED.

So, "having no part with Me" refers to fellowship.

Let's go back to my example of your dirty feet (covered in feces), and you just barging in to your friend's house. Would that offend your friend? You better believe it would. And any fellowship that you were expecting from your visit would be ended.

The ONLY WAY to avoid offending and have fellowship with your friend would be to WIPE YOUR FEET before entering his house.

That is the point of confession. As believers "walk through life", they get their "feet dirty" (sin in their life) and need to have them cleaned up.

But you have been grossly misled into believing that there are only 2 conditions:
either one is constantly sinning (unbelievers) or never sinning (believers). And the Bible NEVER teaches such nonsense.

So I don't expect that my example and explanation will make a difference.

I have no idea what you are thinking of here. The problem is your presumption of there being only 2 conditions; always sinning or never sinning.

In fact, sin is an occurrence. It's not an on-going state of being. It's WHEN a believer sins that they need to confess it. To be forgiven and CLEANSED (purified) from it, just like when you'd better wipe your filthy feet before entering your friend's house after walking on a filthy street.

Have you ever, or someone else, stepped in dog pooh without knowing it and then entered a building? Soon, everyone around knows what happened and the smell is everywhere. You or that someone else, has just offended everyone by your carelessness.

Sin is that way to God. He is offended by sin, and that is why believers MUST recognize when they have sinned so they can confess it for forgiveness and cleansing.

Just like when you or someone else realizes (finally) that the smell is coming from you (or them) and you go back outside to clean off your shoes, or feet, if you prefer to be barefoot. This is akin to confession for forgiveness and cleansing. The others you have offended can forgive you because you acknowledged your own stinky filthy feet and you got them cleaned off so no more offense.

Totally misunderstanding. I have just given you a thorough explanation of how life was in 1st Century Palestine and why foot washing was necessary; to avoid offending others. And Jesus used that to demonstrate fellowship with Himself. But sin offends Him and ends fellowship. So we, the offenders, must confess sin when we commit sin, in order to restore fellowship and be cleansed.

This is only your presumption. The verse doesn't say that. And Paul referred to his "flesh" as the source of his own sins. And he used the PRESENT TENSE in his explanation, which again refutes your presumptions.

This refers to what is called positional truth. Not experiential truth. But I sense that you don't know about this either.

Solid, truthful doctrine brother.
From my experience......Everyone I have ran into who knows the doctrine of fellowship, pretty much line up on most doctrines in the Bible. Of the same mind!

Kind of hard to get varying doctrines when you are filled with the Spirit and walking in the Spirit!

John 10:27 is a Policy Statement

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