Quid est Veritas?

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I mostly agree with this. But again, you seem to be caught up on the fact that we cannot have 100% certainty and that is somehow giving excessive doubt to knowledge.
We are talking past each other. Knowledge does not mean something is true. I can have knowledge of how Buddhism is said to work, without believing it. I am not arguing for doubt in Science, I am in fact not arguing anything anymore here - my initial point was that it was not evidence-based, which you have seem to have ignored after we sorted out your confusion on the meaning of terms. Functionally, Science is a pragmatic attempt to create models to explain observed phenomena naturalistically - that is about it.

I disagree that our knowledge of how flight works is "substantially wrong". I have said here many times that science does not talk about absolute certainty.
You can disagree if you want to, but that doesn't change the fact that that is the position of Aerodynamics currently. This is not really about absolute certainty, though we are fairly confident we are missing something here. Our current explanation is not just incomplete, but probably wrong in substantial respects - just like Physics in general, where our two major models are in competition with one another.

Yes and it was more science that discovered these wrong. One piece of data does not make a theory. Evolution is supported by many different areas of science and has never been falsified to a point that it needs to be thrown out. There is so much evidence for evolution that we consider it a fact.
It is not just a linear progression. Abandoned theories have been taken up again - most notably of course, Atomism. Have you heard of Kuhnian paradigms? Science builds thickets of hypotheses around certain ideas that reinforce each other, but now and then we need to set them aside - and even then, we have no reason to think we should have. I don't know why you keep mentioning Evolution, which is largely a structure of Petitio Principii, in that we find fossils and then explain them by Evolution. I never mentioned it, as it is a poor example in that it is very difficult to falsify. Again, to go from Scientifically Sound to True (which is what I assume you mean by fact here) is a leap of faith.

You think it is good evidence for god. I disagree
Well, I never thought our standards were compatible, as you recall. So, I don't know what you would have me say here.

Everyone has a different standard of evidence for belief in anything. We differ our standards of evidence based on what we are talking about as well. You say that you have a dog named Fred, I will believe you without much more evidence, you say a god exists I will require a higher standard of evidence for that. So the standard changes based on the topic.
Not really. You would still see it as more likely I had a dog named Fred if I had a waterbowl with the name, say. Or it would be stronger evidence if I was walking the dog at that moment. No, you are talking about the position or level of the standard that you would accept before you accept the belief as a justified one. If I talk to an absolute Idealist, our standards of what constitutes evidence would never be compatible, no matter what topic we are talking about. Standard in your example, means more 'level of evidence' you'd accept, like the classes of Evidence in Evidence-Based Medicine, than anything else. I don't understand what point you are trying to make. You are not showing me what you would consider good evidence, if you reject empiric and observable data that can be coupled to religious experience, in this case.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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We are talking past each other. Knowledge does not mean something is true. I can have knowledge of how Buddhism is said to work, without believing it. I am not arguing for doubt in Science, I am in fact not arguing anything anymore here - my initial point was that it was not evidence-based, which you have seem to have ignored after we sorted out your confusion on the meaning of terms. Functionally, Science is a pragmatic attempt to create models to explain observed phenomena naturalistically - that is about it.
I never ignored anything. I responded to all your posts. If you don't like my answers or think they are wrong then lets have a conversation. If not then I really don't care. I basically agree with what you said here.


You can disagree if you want to, but that doesn't change the fact that that is the position of Aerodynamics currently. This is not really about absolute certainty, though we are fairly confident we are missing something here. Our current explanation is not just incomplete, but probably wrong in substantial respects - just like Physics in general, where our two major models are in competition with one another.
It depends on what you mean by substantial I guess. I don't define substantial misunderstanding of flight as using what we know to fly thousands of planes everyday with little fatal mishaps. Why do you think we are missing substantial information about flight?


It is not just a linear progression. Abandoned theories have been taken up again - most notably of course, Atomism. Have you heard of Kuhnian paradigms? Science builds thickets of hypotheses around certain ideas that reinforce each other, but now and then we need to set them aside - and even then, we have no reason to think we should have. I don't know why you keep mentioning Evolution, which is largely a structure of Petitio Principii, in that we find fossils and then explain them by Evolution. I never mentioned it, as it is a poor example in that it is very difficult to falsify. Again, to go from Scientifically Sound to True (which is what I assume you mean by fact here) is a leap of faith.
You misunderstand evolution then. It is not just loking at fossils. It is very easy to falsify, here are a few:

  • If it could be shown that organisms with identical DNA have different genetic traits.
  • If it could be shown that mutations do not occur.
  • If it could be shown that when mutations do occur, they are not passed down through the generations.
  • If it could be shown that although mutations are passed down, no mutation could produce the sort of phenotypic changes that drive natural selection.
  • Fossils in the wrong place (e.g., mammals in the Devonian). If the fossil record were all out of order like this (a single anomalous fossil might not overturn everything, of course, since it could be in the wrong place for other reasons), we’d have to seriously question the occurrence of evolution.
  • A general lack of genetic variation in species. Evolution depends on genetic variation. If most species had none, they couldn’t evolve. However, the universal efficacy of artificial selection (I’m aware of only three lab experiments that failed to show a response to such breeding experiments), shows that genetic variation is ubiquitous in nearly all species.
There are many more. It has never been falsified to the point that it needs to be thrown out.


Not really. You would still see it as more likely I had a dog named Fred if I had a waterbowl with the name, say. Or it would be stronger evidence if I was walking the dog at that moment. No, you are talking about the position or level of the standard that you would accept before you accept the belief as a justified one. If I talk to an absolute Idealist, our standards of what constitutes evidence would never be compatible, no matter what topic we are talking about. Standard in your example, means more 'level of evidence' you'd accept, like the classes of Evidence in Evidence-Based Medicine, than anything else. I don't understand what point you are trying to make. You are not showing me what you would consider good evidence, if you reject empiric and observable data that can be coupled to religious experience, in this case.
Nevermind. You just want to change what I said. Stay healthy.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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It depends on what you mean by substantial I guess. I don't define substantial misunderstanding of flight as using what we know to fly thousands of planes everyday with little fatal mishaps. Why do you think we are missing substantial information about flight?
Because we can't coherently explain why planes fly. We can model the condition under which it occurs quite well, which is why we can build quite effective planes - but that does not explain why these conditions result in lift. The Romans built Aquaducts that worked for more than a thousand years, on incorrect ideas of flow and pressure. Newtonian mechanics was perfectly fine for railways, bridges, skyscrapers, etc. Practical effects does not mean the theory is an adequate explanation.

You misunderstand evolution then. It is not just loking at fossils. It is very easy to falsify, here are a few
I have no beef with Evolution, but it is a poor example as I stated. None of those falsify Speciation by Natural Selection, you are addressing ancillary ideas and theories that are part of the Kuhnian paradigm in which you find Evolution. You are doing the same thing as many creationists, where everything vaguely related is all labelled evolution.

If I claim Steve killed his wife with a cricket bat, showing Steve owns a bat and is an avid cricketer, supports it. But if Steve wasn't, it would not falsify the claim, though remove circumferential support. Steve could still have killed her in that manner. This is the same type of thing you are doing here.

If it could be shown that organisms with identical DNA have different genetic traits.
This falsifies Mendellian heritability and genetics.
If it could be shown that mutations do not occur.
Does not address evolution, again, but a mechanism proposed for it. In many ways, the problem here is more one of showing causation, as mutations are usually innocuous or strongly removed from the genome via cellular mechanisms or through things like genetic disease. Hence we have stability of species over time. True, this does falsify most of our modern proposed mechanism for evolution if no mutations occurred, but this fact offers very little support to the theory itself. It was, after all, proposed long before we realised mutations occurred.

If it could be shown that when mutations do occur, they are not passed down through the generations.
If it could be shown that although mutations are passed down, no mutation could produce the sort of phenotypic changes that drive natural selection.
They usually aren't in general, and much of our ideas thereon are based on current data and assuming a rate we transpose into the past. We explain current diversity by assuming mutation and that this was passed down, but this doesn't show our reasoning valid. If the genomes were different, we could have argued another way. So again, we cannot demonstrate this sufficiently due to the long periods of investigation we would require. Micro-organisms don't help either, as they have mechanisms like plasmids that exchange DNA. This is thus hard to falsify itself. Largely a Petitio Principii, therefore.

Fossils in the wrong place (e.g., mammals in the Devonian). If the fossil record were all out of order like this (a single anomalous fossil might not overturn everything, of course, since it could be in the wrong place for other reasons), we’d have to seriously question the occurrence of evolution.
No, that would only falsify the ways people say it occurred, how the clades are said to be, not its occurence per say. Besides, this has happened, where extinctions were assumed and later found to be flawed by other fossils. The strongest support is in the fossil record, but it is a plastic support, in that the evolutionary record will always be adjusted to fit it, not falsify it.

A general lack of genetic variation in species. Evolution depends on genetic variation. If most species had none, they couldn’t evolve. However, the universal efficacy of artificial selection (I’m aware of only three lab experiments that failed to show a response to such breeding experiments), shows that genetic variation is ubiquitous in nearly all species.
Many species have low diversity, and then people say they had bottlenecks - such as amongst certain big cats. Genetic variation does not falsify evolution, again Mendellian Heritability for artificial selection, else Petitio Principii.

There are many more. It has never been falsified to the point that it needs to be thrown out
It has never been falsified as it is almost impossible to do so. None of these examples are robust methods to do so. The problem is the necessity of applying retrospective reasoning.

I am not going to argue on Evolution further though, as it has no bearing on this thread, and as I said, I have no problem with it, though consider it a poor example of the successful application of scientific method. Besides, I fail to see the point you are trying to make. No matter how well supported, the leap from Scientifically sound to Fact is not demonstrable, by the very nature of Scientific method.

Nevermind. You just want to change what I said. Stay healthy.
What did I change? You said you consider it poor evidence, but you never explained why, and only tried semantic trickery around 'standard of evidence' to obfuscate, seems to me. You argue for some certainty from Empiric methodology, then turn around and ignore a strong correlation thereof. I really don't understand what you are trying to do here, as all of it seems hopelessly muddled and confused.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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The strongest support is in the fossil record, but it is a plastic support, in that the evolutionary record will always be adjusted to fit it, not falsify it.
And here it is. Scientists will lie to defend evolution, this is what you are saying. Whatever. If a dinosaur fossil was found in the same layer as the trilobites in the Cambrian layer then common descent and our understanding of evolution would drastically change. There would be no way to "adjust" common descent to fit it. Our phylogenetic trees would be a mess. Mutations and natural selection still happen but our understanding of how life changed over time would be falsified.

It has never been falsified as it is almost impossible to do so. None of these examples are robust methods to do so. The problem is the necessity of applying retrospective reasoning.
This is untrue. It is easy to falsify as I have stated one case above. I am supposed to take your word for this over the evolutionary scientists on how to falsify the theory?

What did I change? You said you consider it poor evidence, but you never explained why, and only tried semantic trickery around 'standard of evidence' to obfuscate, seems to me. You argue for some certainty from Empiric methodology, then turn around and ignore a strong correlation thereof. I really don't understand what you are trying to do here, as all of it seems hopelessly muddled and confused.
Why accuse me of doing anything on purpose is what you are doing here. Semantic trickery and obfuscate are loaded terms to indicate I am not being truthful. Keep safe my friend.
 
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BigV

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So let us review Atheism by these criteria. Clearly it is not the norm for humans, as universally all cultures have some form of religious belief historically.

Well, I would say talking to imaginary beings that you think are real, are pretty much outside the norm also.

Your OP reminds me of a joke:

A Christian, a Jew and a Skeptics are all being executed for their crimes. As they are facing the guillotine, they are asked if they have a last word.

At first, it's the Christian's turn. A Christian prays for a miracle, lays his head down and then, voila, the blade stops short of his neck, and he is released. "A Miracle has happened", the crowd chants!

Then, a Jewish person goes, also prays for a miracle, and, again, the blade stops short of his neck, saving this life. "Another miracle"

Lastly, it's the skeptics turn. His gaze is fixed on the guide bars. At last, he exclaims: "Hey, I see what the problem is. There is a splinter of wood that is stuck, preventing the blade from going the whole way".

This is a joke, and I doubt it really happened, but it illustrates how speaking the truth and the facts are not always in our best interest.

Certainly, it wasn't in the interest of our ancestors, who, bucking the majority, voiced the unpopular ideas.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/galileo-is-convicted-of-heresy
 
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BigV

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If God is not real, then all of the people who believe in Him have a fixed, false belief. QED.

As Michael Scott (the Office, US Version) said, if there is no God, then who was Jesus' dad? And what are all the churches for then?
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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And here it is. Scientists will lie to defend evolution, this is what you are saying. Whatever. If a dinosaur fossil was found in the same layer as the trilobites in the Cambrian layer then common descent and our understanding of evolution would drastically change. There would be no way to "adjust" common descent to fit it. Our phylogenetic trees would be a mess. Mutations and natural selection still happen but our understanding of how life changed over time would be falsified.
You are tilting at windmills. Never said anything remotely like this. Obviously we adjust to fit new evidence, else it would be pseudoscience. And yes, we could and would adjust it. Really now.

This is untrue. It is easy to falsify as I have stated one case above. I am supposed to take your word for this over the evolutionary scientists on how to falsify the theory?
None of what you said falsifies it. Don't take my word though. Karl Popper, one of the premiere philosophers of Science, famously called natural selection a metaphysical research programme, and not a testable theory. Sure, he subsequently retracted it after backlash amongst scientists, but he really didn't. I attached an article on it. It is not that elements can't be tested, but it is difficult to falsify.

Why accuse me of doing anything on purpose is what you are doing here. Semantic trickery and obfuscate are loaded terms to indicate I am not being truthful. Keep safe my friend.
I really have no intention to talk about evolution, which red herring you keep trying to chase. I didn't feel you were trying to stay on topic at all, though. If I was mistaken, I apologise.

Have a nice day, sir.

Edit: I just realised I may not be allowed to distribute a pdf of that article, so I removed it. Here is a link for it.

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/691119
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Well, I would say talking to imaginary beings that you think are real, are pretty much outside the norm also.

Your OP reminds me of a joke:

A Christian, a Jew and a Skeptics are all being executed for their crimes. As they are facing the guillotine, they are asked if they have a last word.

At first, it's the Christian's turn. A Christian prays for a miracle, lays his head down and then, voila, the blade stops short of his neck, and he is released. "A Miracle has happened", the crowd chants!

Then, a Jewish person goes, also prays for a miracle, and, again, the blade stops short of his neck, saving this life. "Another miracle"

Lastly, it's the skeptics turn. His gaze is fixed on the guide bars. At last, he exclaims: "Hey, I see what the problem is. There is a splinter of wood that is stuck, preventing the blade from going the whole way".

This is a joke, and I doubt it really happened, but it illustrates how speaking the truth and the facts are not always in our best interest.

Certainly, it wasn't in the interest of our ancestors, who, bucking the majority, voiced the unpopular ideas.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/galileo-is-convicted-of-heresy
Galileo's trial is quite misunderstood. The problem was not that he went against the Church's prefered model of the solar system, but that he claimed that if a theory saved the appearances, it was true. He was free to investigate Copernican theory as much as he wished, but his stance on epistemology was the heresy.
 
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zippy2006

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None of what you said falsifies it. Don't take my word though. Karl Popper, one of the premiere philosophers of Science, famously called natural selection a metaphysical research programme, and not a testable theory. Sure, he subsequently retracted it after backlash amongst scientists, but he really didn't. I attached an article on it. It is not that elements can't be tested, but it is difficult to falsify.

Edit: I just realised I may not be allowed to distribute a pdf of that article, so I removed it. Here is a link for it.

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/691119

Interesting paper! It actually makes quite a bit of sense to say that natural selection is tautologous.
 
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