Are those who deny eternal punishment doomed to Hell?
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Dear Contender: Dr. Strong has provided a wonderful service for us with his numbering of koine words.
If you actually believe aidios & aionios are interchangeable I have a few questions for you.
1. Can an adjective hold greater scope than the noun upon which it rests?
2. If aion means age (& it does), how can aion be in the plural & why?
3. Aidios is ONLY applied to God in exactly 2 passages of Scripture. Why?
Marvin R. Vincent: Note on ‘eternal destruction’ (Olethron Aionion) | Mercy Upon All
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And people need to believe and receive that. Otherwise they are not trusting in Jesus' words nor in his finished work on the cross - it means nothing to them.
John says, "to all who received him he gave the right to become children of God", John 1:12.
And "if anyone does not have the Son, he does not have life", 1 John 5:12
The gift of God is eternal life thought Christ, Romans 6:23 - a gift needs to be received and opened before it can be enjoyed or used.
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Well yes - but you said that everybody is ALREADY saved.
If they are, where's the evidence of that?
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I don't.
I am reconciled to Christ now; as are you, and all other believers on these forums.
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The evidence? Right here. (scripture below) Done deal.
Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
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Okay, good.
This scripture says that, "one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people."
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
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1 John 5:19
(19) We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
Revelation 12:9
(9) The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Revelation 13:3
(3) One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.
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>FL>Dear Contender: Dr. Strong has provided a wonderful service for us with his numbering of koine words.FineLinen said:
If you actually believe aidios & aionios are interchangeable I have a few questions for you.
1. Can an adjective hold greater scope than the noun upon which it rests?
2. If aion means age (& it does), how can aion be in the plural & why?
3. Aidios is ONLY applied to God in exactly 2 passages of Scripture. Why?
Marvin R. Vincent: Note on 'eternal destruction." Olethron Aioniod) | Mercy Upon All.<FL<
Why do you mention Dr. Strong then link to Vincent?
Perhaps you should read another old, old scholar E. W, Bullinger who wrote a book titled "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible." It is available for reading and D/L at Internet Archives. .....There were no superlatives in Hebrew so to emphasize a word it was doubled. An example occurs in Gen 2:17 which reads in English "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." In Hebrew it is "muth t'muth" , "dying you will die." To emphasize "eternity/eternal" it is frequently doubled.
.....Mr. Strong has been found to have about 15,000 errors and omissions. Instead of reading the contradictory opinions of "scholars." Let us review what Paul had to say about "aionios."
Paul defines αἰώνιος/aionios in ten passages. No "scholars,"no "experts" only how Paul uses and defines the word.
Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]
Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
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Yes ALL people can be saved and made righteous.
But not all will accept that gift from God.
Elsewhere on these forums, someone has written about how their father hated God, really hated him. There are probably many lie that; others are indifferent to him. In what way has someone who hates God been made righteous - or is it your belief that they can, and will, be made righteous after they die?
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I agree.
Please tell us some of what God has already said on this matter. Thanks.
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You say, "ALL people can be saved and made righteous"? By what?
This scripture says it has ALREADY been accomplished. Christ did it on the cross.
We can NEVER be our own righteousness. Christ is our righteousness.
We is ragamuffins. (Brennan Manning)
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
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Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. (Lk 7:22)
When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth."The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Unbind him, and let him go." (Jn 11:44)
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. (Rev 1:17-18)
Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (Jn 14:9)
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who wills that all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2:3-4)
So Jesus can, does and will raise the dead [edit: unto salvation] according to the will of God. Case closed.
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Dear Strong: Salvation is NOT on us! Not only can the broken wrecks of the great schism of the fall of Adam1 be saved and made righteous, they shall! Every last broken wreck of the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Please follow the bouncing ball of reconciliation>>>
The polus "made sinners" = the polus "made righteous".
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@Strong in Him
How many is "many"? (many = all)
- "... the many died by the trespass of the one man..." How many is "many"? (many = all)
- "... God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! ..." How many is "many"? (many = all)
- "The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses..." How many is "many"? (many = all)
Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
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The Three Tenses of Salvation
There is a picture of Bishop Westcott. The nineteenth-century English scholar, Bishop B.F. Westcott, was Regius Professor of Divinity at Cambridge University.
On one occasion he was approached by a zealous undergraduate who asked him, ‘Are you saved?’
‘Ah,’ said the Bishop, ‘a very good question.
But tell me: do you mean … ?’ And then he mentioned three passive participles of the Greek verb ‘to save’, indicating that his answer would depend on which of the three the student had in mind (the English translation is given here in italics). ‘I know I have been saved,’ he said; ‘I believe I am being saved; and I hope by the grace of God that I shall be saved.’
‘Salvation’ is a huge and comprehensive word. It means ‘freedom’. As the Bishop pointed out, there are three tenses of salvation:
we have been set free from the penalty of sin, we are being set free from the power of sin and we will be set free from the presence of sin.
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I know he did.
But that doesn't mean that everyone in the world - the atheists, Mormons, suicide bombers etc etc - are saved or righteous.
I think you would agree with that. But you appear to be saying that one day they will die, meet with God, be told that they HAD been saved and righteous while on earth, and say "ok; I believe, then", and be given eternal life there and then, because they have finally believed.
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If you indeed "know he did", then why do you make it about us?
Explain how you are more deserving than the others. (atheists, Mormons, suicide bombers etc etc)
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If they are already saved then they have eternal life already, correct?
Even those who believe in a forever burning hell believe this. You have to be alive to be in torment. Right? How long will they be in torment? (forever) Dead or alive?
Do you believe that we are seated with Christ in the heavenly realms?
If so, what is the evidence?
Ephesians 2:6
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
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