Are those who deny eternal punishment doomed to Hell?

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Saint Steven

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Stated differently, it's the distinction between the Great While Throne in Revelation and the Judgment Seat of Christ for believers, in the passage you cited.
Right. I think judgment is a lot more complicated that the black and white view we tend to take. In Matt.25 (end of chapter) Those caring for the needs of the body of Christ are welcomed in. Nothing about belief or faith.

We also see that kings (leaders) and nations (peoples) and individuals will all be judged. How will the judgment of a nation effect both the peoples and the king? And teachers will be judged as well. (I hear) There may be many more categories. Seems more gray than black and white.
 
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Saint Steven

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I just had a humorous visual image of someone being pulled out of the "wrath" on a cookie sheet, looking rather dazed and sooty. (lightly blackened) Giving a single cough with smoke coming out. - lol --- Like a physical comedy in a movie. (insert laugh track here)
@Shrewd Manager
Now I envision the exit interview. (from the wrath)
Reporter (with microphone): "So, are you glad to go through that?"
Restored person: (nods head to affirm a "Yes.")
Reporter: "So, would you like to do it again?"
Restored person: (shakes head to affirm a "No.")
 
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Contenders Edge

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Dear Contender: We will now compare krisis with krema. Again I repeat: there is simply NO word for damnation in all Canon, NONE!

Our Abba corrects, He chastens, He brings every last broken wreck of His children damaged by the break in union with Him back to Himself by way of at-one-ment with His Mind & Heart & purpose in His beloved Son, the Master Isous.

The good, the bad, & the ugly.

Krisis Meaning in Bible - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard


I don't see a comparison between Krisis and Krima shown. They can both be applied to eternal punishment but Krisis, in the passage cited is applying to a specific form of judgment that the people of God may be subject to which is not "wrath" because God does not subject His people to wrath, but a correction or chastening
 
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Der Alte

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I don't see a comparison between Krisis and Krima shown. They can both be applied to eternal punishment but Krisis, in the passage cited is applying to a specific form of judgment that the people of God may be subject to which is not "wrath" because God does not subject His people to wrath, but a correction or chastening
Rubbish!
Genesis 19:24-25, Genesis 7:23, Numbers 21:3, Deuteronomy 20:16-17, Deuteronomy 7:2, Deuteronomy 32:25, Jeremiah 13:14

 
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Strong in Him

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Some gather that from what I am saying. But I need to correct their misconceptions.
I do believe in Restorationism. Everyone is already saved.

Not judging by the current state of the world, they're not.

Only a few know about it now. The rest will have to be informed later.

They will be informed that the Gospel they rejected was true; yes.
They will also know that God loved them unconditionally, sent Jesus to save them and they rejected him. That, in my view, is what hell will be; people who died in their sins will know for a fact that forgiveness and reconciliation were possible and will look upon the One who died for them and whom they rejected.

But repentance seems pointless in that situation.

It won't be pointless, it will be impossible.
If people die in their sins or die with unconfessed, unforgiven sin how can they live forever in the presence of a holy God?
When Adam and Eve sinned they were thrown out of the garden, Genesis 3:23-24.
In the OT people believed that if they saw God they would die, Exodus 33:20, Judges 13:22.
When Isaiah had a vision of God he declared himself to be sinful. Isaiah 6:5
When Jesus called Peter, told him to throw his nets over the side of the boat and they caught masses of fish, Peter's response was "go away from me Lord, I am a sinful man", Luke 5:8

The message of the Gospel is that we need to repent of our sins and our efforts to get to heaven on our own, or make ourselves good enough, believe that that's why Jesus died and we are saved through his sacrifice and receive him, the Holy Spirit and eternal life.
Those who do that while alive on earth, are saved; those who knowingly refuse to do that and accept Christ die in their sins. At judgement, Christians who are in Christ are forgiven and reconciled to God. Those who aren't, aren't. It won't be a matter of "I saved you while you were on earth, now that you can see me, do you accept that?" Otherwise, as I said, there would have been no point in proclaiming the Good News. According to Mark, Jesus' first word after he started his ministry was 'repent'. There was a reason for that.
And no one will enter the Kingdom of God unless they are born again, John 3:3.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Yes, Jesus died for everyone.
Everyone, not just a few, has the potential to respond to the Gospel and be saved - but it is still a gift, Romans 6:23, that some choose to reject.
 
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FineLinen

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I don't see a comparison between Krisis and Krima shown. They can both be applied to eternal punishment but Krisis, in the passage cited is applying to a specific form of judgment that the people of God may be subject to which is not "wrath" because God does not subject His people to wrath, but a correction or chastening

My friend it is evident there are many (polus) things you do not see. Only the One who opens blind eyes & deaf ears will suffice!

Again, and again, and again if necessary, there is NO "eternal" kolasis!

Aionios kolasis & aidios kolasis are NOT interchangeable!

Marvin R. Vincent: Note on ‘eternal destruction’ (Olethron Aionion) | Mercy Upon All
 
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Saint Steven

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Not judging by the current state of the world, they're not.
Salvation is not dependent on us. Never was. Salvation is the work of God, done on his timetable.

Saint Steven said:
Some gather that from what I am saying. But I need to correct their misconceptions.
I do believe in Restorationism. Everyone is already saved.
 
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Saint Steven

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It won't be pointless, it will be impossible.
If people die in their sins or die with unconfessed, unforgiven sin how can they live forever in the presence of a holy God?
That's like worrying about how you will be able to continue to make your monthly mortgage payments when you have the deed in your hands. On it is stamped...

-- PAID IN FULL --
 
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Saint Steven

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When Adam and Eve sinned they were thrown out of the garden, Genesis 3:23-24.
In the OT people believed that if they saw God they would die, Exodus 33:20, Judges 13:22.
When Isaiah had a vision of God he declared himself to be sinful. Isaiah 6:5
When Jesus called Peter, told him to throw his nets over the side of the boat and they caught masses of fish, Peter's response was "go away from me Lord, I am a sinful man", Luke 5:8
Adam and Eve, for their own good. (and ours)
The OT people, wrong in every case. Moses was a murderer when God gave him the TCs.
Did Isaiah burn up, or did they talk?
Did Jesus go away when Peter said that? (nope)

Maybe we are wrong about God.
 
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Saint Steven

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The message of the Gospel is that we need to repent of our sins and our efforts to get to heaven on our own...
I agree with that if we stop the paragraph right there. The rest... smh
 
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Saint Steven

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At judgement, Christians who are in Christ are forgiven and reconciled to God.
What if that is actually available to everyone?

Why do you believe that "Christians who are in Christ are forgiven and reconciled to God" AT JUDGEMENT ???

Weren't they forgiven and reconciled to God before they arrived?
 
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Saint Steven

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According to Mark, Jesus' first word after he started his ministry was 'repent'. There was a reason for that.
And no one will enter the Kingdom of God unless they are born again, John 3:3.
We are not claiming that anyone will enter the Kingdom of God WITHOUT BEING born again.
 
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FineLinen

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My friend it is evident there are many (polus) things you do not see. Only the One who opens blind eyes & deaf ears will suffice!

Again, and again, and again if necessary, there is NO "eternal" kolasis!

Aionios kolasis & aidios kolasis are NOT interchangeable!


"This is zoe aionios, that we may know You..."

Aionios is knowing God. In short, a quality of Life.

And yes, aionios does extend to age and ages, which extends beyond time.

Aionios kolasis likewise extends to a quality of chastisement by the Father of all fathers.

Aidios

ALL references to aidios are completely in the Realm of the eternal God of glory. All 2 one of them!
 
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Saint Steven

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Yes, Jesus died for everyone.
Everyone, not just a few, has the potential to respond to the Gospel and be saved - but it is still a gift, Romans 6:23, that some choose to reject.
Why do you limit that potential?
I think the phrase "not only for ours" in the scripture below is there for a reason.
If what you say is true, why state it this way? What difference would it make?

Saint Steven said:
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
 
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Contenders Edge

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Rubbish!
Genesis 19:24-25, Genesis 7:23, Numbers 21:3, Deuteronomy 20:16-17, Deuteronomy 7:2, Deuteronomy 32:25, Jeremiah 13:14

These were not the people of God who were being subject to wrath but the wicked. Those subjected to the wrath of God are destroyed but the people of God are never destroyed even though they must be corrected in measure.
 
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My friend it is evident there are many (polus) things you do not see. Only the One who opens blind eyes & deaf ears will suffice!

Again, and again, and again if necessary, there is NO "eternal" kolasis!

Aionios kolasis & aidios kolasis are NOT interchangeable!

Marvin R. Vincent: Note on ‘eternal destruction’ (Olethron Aionion) | Mercy Upon All


According to the Strong's Concordance, they are interchangeable as they both apply to that which is ongoing and never ending.
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
Aionios kolasis & aidios kolasis are NOT interchangeable!
Marvbin R. Vincent: Note on 'eternal destruction' (Olethrone Aionion) Mercy Upon All
Your friend Saint Steven said quotes from such sources as Vincent were worthless and I think you agreed with him.
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
My friend it is evident there are many (polus) things you do not see. Only the One who opens blind eyes & deaf ears will suffice!
Again, and again, and again if necessary, there is NO "eternal" kolasis!
After hearing this argument umpteen times on this and other forums I decided to to a word study in the NT.
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” cannot mean eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
But neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament as in the following verses.
…..In 9 of these verses Jesus has defined “aionios” as eternal.
In 10 verses Paul has defined “aionios” as eternal.
In twenty four [24] of the following verses aion and aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
List of verses cited:1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33,Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26, John 3:36 , John 4:14, John 6:27

[1] Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[2] Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
[3] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]
In this verse the reign basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
[4] 2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[5] 2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[6] Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[7] 1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
[8] 1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[9] Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[10] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[11] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[12] 1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [aion]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, which is is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
[Character limit. Continued next page.]


 
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Der Alte

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[Post #398 continued]
[13] 1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
[14] Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[15] 1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[16] Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
[17] John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
[18] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
[19] John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[20] Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[21] Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[22] John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
In this verse aionios life is contrasted with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
[23] John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.
In this verse aionios is contrasted with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[24] John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
In this verse “aionios meat” is contrasted with “meat that perishes” .” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[25] John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent
"The double negative [ou mé] signifies in nowise, by no means. [theorese], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally."
 
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Saint Steven

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These were not the people of God who were being subject to wrath but the wicked. Those subjected to the wrath of God are destroyed but the people of God are never destroyed even though they must be corrected in measure.
That sounds like Annihilation.
 
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