Forgiveness must come from the victim

cloudyday2 · Mar 24, 2020

topher694 said:
This is not a shortcoming, it is a misunderstanding of forgiveness and justice, as is your alternate "explaination"

Why did you misspell "explanation" and then put quote marks around it? I don't believe I misspelled it - at least not in what you quoted from me. I guess it's not big deal except that I think you are trying to frame me for the crime of misspelling a word that I did not misspell. You know I won our school's spelling bee in 3rd grade and almost won the county spelling bee too? I try to spell things correctly LOL

Religiot · Mar 24, 2020

JIMINZ said:
I think maybe you should repent of your anger directed at me, and of your overall judgment.

That doesn't look good on a Christian to towards a Brother.

I'm not sure if you are allowed on this Forum to say all of the nasty things you have said, but I Forgive you your sin anyway.

I'm not angry at you, I was simply appalled by your answer...

I do agree that I could've said it much nicer, but it was just my shock of disbelief at what you said that got the better of me (tho I did control myself, as a Christian, not to insult you, because that would've been sin, and uncalled for), so I must ask your forgiveness for my short reply to your response.

And please consider my rebuke to be out of love for you and the truth of our Lord, as a fellow Christian, and not out of anger in sin.

"Open rebuke is better than secret love."
--Proverbs 27:5

topher694 · Mar 24, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
Why did you misspell "explanation" and then put quote marks around it? I don't believe I misspelled it - at least not in what you quoted from me. I guess it's not big deal except that I think you are trying to frame me for the crime of misspelling a word that I did not misspell. You know I won our school's spelling bee in 3rd grade and almost won the county spelling bee too? I try to spell things correctly LOL

No, I just framed myself is all. I hat speling. I was turrrible at it skool.

I think I started typing "explain" then changed when realized that wasn't the right word and just mashed them up. But, if I'll just leave it there now if that's cool with you, cause it's funny.

Carl Emerson · Mar 24, 2020

You may choose to question God's Word, I don't.

GospelS · Mar 25, 2020

@cloudyday2

Please tell me what you find unsatisfactory in the below passage, the punishment of death given to the the criminal? or the forgiveness he received from Jesus? Because it is same with all. We will be justly punished in this world for our wrongs but are you saying that it isn’t enough and we should also be punished after death. Jesus forgiveness is related to salvation of human souls, not an escape from the punishments we are subjected to in this world. Punishment for rebellion against God is spiritual death/hell which is forgiven. Punishment for crime against another human will be adequately given to the sinners’ physical life unless forgiven by the victim.

Luke 23:32-43, Two others also, who were criminals, were being led away to be put to death with Him. When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

cloudyday2 · Mar 25, 2020

gospels said:
@cloudyday2

Please tell me what you find unsatisfactory in the below passage, the punishment of death given to the the criminal? or the forgiveness he received from Jesus? Because it is same with all. We will be justly punished in this world for our wrongs but are you saying that it isn’t enough and we should also be punished after death. Jesus forgiveness is related to salvation of human souls, not an escape from the punishments we are subjected to in this world. Punishment for rebellion against God is spiritual death/hell which is forgiven. Punishment for crime against another human will be adequately given to the sinners’ physical life unless forgiven by the victim.

Luke 23:32-43, Two others also, who were criminals, were being led away to be put to death with Him. When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Jesus said that the criminal would join him in Paradise. Jesus did not say that the criminal's presumed sins against human victims had been forgiven. In fact, a crime as defined by Pontius Pilate might not involve human victims. The crime was likely to have been sedition. This was the crime of Jesus.

GospelS · Mar 25, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
Jesus did not say that the criminal's presumed sins against human victims had been forgiven.

That is what I was saying. The criminal is already paying the price for his crime against another human/sedition (He was put to death). So that is not forgiven. Every sin against God is forgiven by Jesus. So we all pay the price for the wrongs that we do to others unless the victim forgives. There are two victims involved, human and God. A human victim may punish or forgive the victimizer to their satisfaction for the crime committed against them and similarly it is upto God whether He will punish or forgive for the sin committed against Him. @cloudyday2

cloudyday2 · Mar 25, 2020

gospels said:
That is what I was saying. The criminal is already paying the price for his crime against another human/sedition (He was put to death). So that is not forgiven. Every sin against God is forgiven by Jesus. So we all pay the price for the wrongs that we do to others unless the victim forgives. There are two victims involved, human and God. A human victim may punish or forgive the victimizer to their satisfaction for the crime committed against them and similarly it is upto God whether He will punish or forgive for the sin committed against Him. @cloudyday2

You assume that every sin against another person is a crime that is handled justly by human governments. Many times people sin without breaking any law. I think I sin when I make other people on CF angry instead of happy, but that is not a crime. Some might argue that a sin against a human is also a sin against God, and I can agree with that. Still, if I sin against both a human and God then both must forgive me. It is not sufficient for God alone to forgive without addressing the feelings of the human victim too.

So the ministry, teachings, and crucifixion of Jesus set the example of forgiveness. The idea that justice was somehow satisfied in God's eyes by crucifying Jesus is probably anthropomorphizing God inappropriately as some sort of Al Capone type (Sorry maybe Al Capone isn't the best analogy but hopefully you see what I mean. God surely isn't like that.)

GospelS · Mar 25, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
You assume that every sin against another person is a crime that is handled justly by human governments. Many times people sin without breaking any law. I think I sin when I make other people on CF angry instead of happy, but that is not a crime. Some might argue that a sin against a human is also a sin against God, and I can agree with that. Still, if I sin against both a human and God then both must forgive me. It is not sufficient for God alone to forgive without addressing the feelings of the human victim too.

Yes, God does address the feeling of the human victim too but that human would have to be reconciled to God for Him to address those feelings. That is why God wants us to believe in Him and be reconciled to Him through Jesus so that He can address the feelings of those human victims. God is also hurt that He could not address human victims' feelings because that victim denied God and is not in relationship with Him. So someone cannot expect God to address those feelings if they deny Him/ deny to have faith that reconciles them to God.

cloudyday2 said:
So the ministry, teachings, and crucifixion of Jesus set the example of forgiveness. The idea that justice was somehow satisfied in God's eyes by crucifying Jesus is probably anthropomorphizing God inappropriately as some sort of Al Capone type (Sorry maybe Al Capone isn't the best analogy but hopefully you see what I mean. God surely isn't like that.)

God made us in His image. He sees His image in us when we suffer. God created us through His son. Hence, in God's eyes, He sees everyone in His son. @cloudyday2

mkgal1 · Mar 25, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
I would say it is the human who sees justice as punitive rather than God, but part of justice is to satisfy the human victim. God's solution is "judge not lest you be judged" and "let him without sin cast the first stone" and to make everybody aware of their deeply selfish and sinful nature. A human victim naturally wants to do hurt the victimizer. God hopefully is more enlightened and wants to enlighten and reconcile both the victim and the victimizer. ... That's my opinion anyway. ... But forgiveness must be granted by the victim. To have God forgive the victimizer is not satisfactory.

I absolutely agree that part of justice is to satisfy the human victim. Only recently had I noticed these passages about vindication being sought from victims (and I do believe this was satisfied, although I don't think the details have been revealed to us):

Genesis 4:10 ~ But the LORD said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground!

Matthew 23:34-35 ~Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Luke 11:51 ~ from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

Revelation 6:9-10 ~ When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their testimony. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

This is the time and event that I believe fulfill these passages: The Jewish Revolts

JIMINZ · Mar 25, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
Jesus said that the criminal would join him in Paradise. Jesus did not say that the criminal's presumed sins against human victims had been forgiven. In fact, a crime as defined by Pontius Pilate might not involve human victims. The crime was likely to have been sedition. This was the crime of Jesus.

Do you own a book of hundreds of blank pages, with a concise listing of all of the things the Bible doesn't speak about, but are sins nonetheless? :doh:

Robban · Mar 26, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
I am curious if this idea works from a Christian and non-Christian perspective.

The common explanation of salvation through Jesus has some shortcomings. Let's say somebody sins against me, but that person seeks salvation through Jesus and goes unpunished. It seems like an injustice to me.

Here is my solution: the crucifixion is an example of forgiveness rather than justice. I can either forgive the person who sins against me or not. If I do not forgive the person then God will punish him appropriately on my behalf even if he is a Christian. But I will become aware of my own pettiness after death and ultimately forgive the person who sinned against me to follow the example of Jesus.

In a nutshell, Jesus cannot forgive people for their sins against other people, but he can set an example of forgiveness.

Sorry if I haven't explained it clearly. Maybe if people will ask questions on areas of confusion I can clarify.

Somewhere in the NT there is a passage telling that
if anyone comes to offer at the Altar and has something
unreconciled with his neighbour,
he is to leave his offer at the Altar and go and reconcile with his neighbour.

Thereafter he can offer his offer.

I tried to find this passage but could not, but it is there.

How is it different from what the Mishnah states;

"For sins against G-d, the day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) brings forgiveness.

For sins against one,s neighbour, the Day of Atonement
brings no forgiveness until one has become reconciled
with one,s neighbour."

cloudyday2 · Mar 26, 2020

Robban said:
Somewhere in the NT there is a passage telling that
if anyone comes to offer at the Altar and has something
unreconciled with his neighbour,
he is to leave his offer at the Altar and go and reconcile with his neighbour.

Thereafter he can offer his offer.

I tried to find this passage but could not, but it is there.

How is it different from what the Mishnah states;

"For sins against G-d, the day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) brings forgiveness.

For sins against one,s neighbour, the Day of Atonement
brings no forgiveness until one has become reconciled
with one,s neighbour."

That verse is Matthew 5:23-24 NIV
' “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.'
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:23-24 - New International Version

Most Christians see the Crucifixion as vicarious punishment - Jesus takes the punishment for our sins - but I think it works better to see the Crucifixion as an example of God forgiving Israel for yet another act of rebellion. Jesus claimed to be the promised Messiah, but he was rejected and killed like Isaiah and other prophets, and God forgave Israel as requested by Jesus. So that is an example to follow. If God can forgive Israel for rebellion then we can have hope that God will forgive each of us for rebellion and we should follow that example by forgiving others. (And of course we need to try to be aware when we sin against others and ask their forgiveness to help them heal from the wound in addition and to hopefully resolve the sin.)

Robban · Mar 26, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
That verse is Matthew 5:23-24 NIV
' “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.'
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:23-24 - New International Version

Most Christians see the Crucifixion as vicarious punishment - Jesus takes the punishment for our sins - but I think it works better to see the Crucifixion as an example of God forgiving Israel for yet another act of rebellion. Jesus claimed to be the promised Messiah, but he was rejected and killed like Isaiah and other prophets, and God forgave Israel as requested by Jesus. So that is an example to follow. If God can forgive Israel for rebellion then we can have hope that God will forgive each of us for rebellion and we should follow that example by forgiving others. (And of course we need to try to be aware when we sin against others and ask their forgiveness to help them heal from the wound in addition and to hopefully resolve the sin.)

Thanks for directions to that passage,

I trust you are trying to keep safe in these times.

cloudyday2 · Mar 26, 2020

Robban said:
Thanks for directions to that passage,

I trust you are trying to keep safe in these times.

Yep, so far nobody I know has been hospitalized or anything. My brother and I had to layoff over half our employees last night, and most of them have been with us for 10 to 20 years. It's all been a shock to me, because I don't read the news. Three weeks ago I don't know if I had even heard of this corona virus.

Hopefully you are protecting yourself.

Robban · Mar 26, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
Yep, so far nobody I know has been hospitalized or anything. My brother and I had to layoff over half our employees last night, and most of them have been with us for 10 to 20 years. It's all been a shock to me, because I don't read the news. Three weeks ago I don't know if I had even heard of this corona virus.

Hopefully you are protecting yourself.

Oh, that was not good.

Today I was out after about a week inside,
had to get some provisions.

It was more or less normal, the bus could only be entered by the back door, to protect the driver,
which is good.

A wonderful day, sunny and there was warmth in the sun.
Rows of krokuses in bloom,
I touched so few surfaces, but still wash my hands on coming home.

From what I understand the virus which is so tiny, tiny
has to find a cell to invade otherwise it will die.

So if it is not spread it has nowhere to go and fades out or dies.
That is my view, right or wrong I am not thinking of giving it the green light to enter into me.

In any case hope the situation improves for you and family.

cloudyday2 · Mar 26, 2020

Robban said:
Oh, that was not good.

Today I was out after about a week inside,
had to get some provisions.

It was more or less normal, the bus could only be entered by the back door, to protect the driver,
which is good.

A wonderful day, sunny and there was warmth in the sun.
Rows of krokuses in bloom,
I touched so few surfaces, but still wash my hands on coming home.

From what I understand the virus which is so tiny, tiny
has to find a cell to invade otherwise it will die.

So if it is not spread it has nowhere to go and fades out or dies.
That is my view, right or wrong I am not thinking of giving it the green light to enter into me.

In any case hope the situation improves for you and family.

It is good that you are being careful. Riding the bus sounds risky to me, but I guess there is no alternative in urban areas. Get yourself a unicycle with a really tall seat like the circus, so you can maintain that 6 foot separation on a crowded sidewalk

Robban · Mar 26, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
It is good that you are being careful. Riding the bus sounds risky to me, but I guess there is no alternative in urban areas. Get yourself a unicycle with a really tall seat like the circus, so you can maintain that 6 foot separation on a crowded sidewalk

Haha, my cycle days are over,

I have always been cautious in taking a bus,

Some years ago when I was working at place about,
I do not know, about 8 km away bus was never an option.
One winter with -20 and the bicycle outside during the night, I would ride it to work, it creaked and groaned
pretty heavy to pedal.

Today there were not many on the bus.
There was a notice that said;
"Keep distance with others."

So what more can one do, keep distance avoid touching surfaces, hand washing on coming home.

And of course not touching face, eyes, nose or mouth.

Godistruth1 · Mar 26, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
I am curious if this idea works from a Christian and non-Christian perspective.

The common explanation of salvation through Jesus has some shortcomings. Let's say somebody sins against me, but that person seeks salvation through Jesus and goes unpunished. It seems like an injustice to me.

Here is my solution: the crucifixion is an example of forgiveness rather than justice. I can either forgive the person who sins against me or not. If I do not forgive the person then God will punish him appropriately on my behalf even if he is a Christian. But I will become aware of my own pettiness after death and ultimately forgive the person who sinned against me to follow the example of Jesus.

In a nutshell, Jesus cannot forgive people for their sins against other people, but he can set an example of forgiveness.

Sorry if I haven't explained it clearly. Maybe if people will ask questions on areas of confusion I can clarify.

See jesus can take the punishment possibly of only one person or only one murder because he died only once. What about people like hitler who killed millions. How can he be just forgiven just because he accepted jesus. Thats injustice to the millions of jews who were incarcerated, killed in most heinous ways. Logically some have even undergone worse than what jesus went through. One person cannot pay for crimes of all. Hitler has to go through the same punishment a million times for justice to prevail unless each victim forgives him personally.

JIMINZ · Mar 26, 2020

Godistruth1 said:
See jesus can take the punishment possibly of only one person or only one murder because he died only once. What about people like hitler who killed millions. How can he be just forgiven just because he accepted jesus. Thats injustice to the millions of jews who were incarcerated, killed in most heinous ways. Logically some have even undergone worse than what jesus went through. One person cannot pay for crimes of all. Hitler has to go through the same punishment a million times for justice to prevail unless each victim forgives him personally.

I know this will be difficult for you to comprehend, Jesus can take the sin of the would world.....Because.

"JESUS is GOD"

Forgiveness must come from the victim

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