Who is the harlot of the Apocalypse?

Jerusalem

Compare it with chapter 11.

Knee V said:

Compare it with chapter 11.

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The identity

Knee V said:

Compare it with chapter 11.

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Knee V said:

Compare it with chapter 11.

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once the great city is identified in chapter 11 as the city where the final two prophets are slain and more importantly where the Lord was crucified the identity of the great city does not change between re. 11 and re. 17.

Knee V said:

Jerusalem

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Is that 1st century or future Jerusalem?

The harlot in Revelation is first-century Jerusalem. The book of Revelation was relevant to John's original audience that would later encounter the Jewish Wars with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. This is the divine judgement prophesied in the book. This letter was not written to 21st century Christians about their future.

ewq1938 said:

If that is true, why did John not write about that?

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He did. He used apocalyptic language. Let us not forget that the letter is addressed to seven first-century churches and has several statements that indicate Jesus was going to come in judgement during their lives and very soon.

Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place.

Revelation 1:3
...for the time is near.

Revelation 3:11
I am coming soon.

Revelation 22:7
And behold, I am coming soon.

Revelation 22:10
Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

Clearly it was since most of the things written in Revelation have not happened like the death of 1/3 of the human population by the 6th trumpet massive army, the rise of the ten kingdoms beast empire with the AC as it's leader, the public death and resurrection of the two prophets in Revelation 11, the largest earthquake in human history in Revelation 16, and of course no sounding of the 7th trumpet and battle between Christ and his army and the beast and it's armies at Armageddon. None of that happened in the first century so the events were well into the future and to this day have not happened yet.

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You don't seem to understand how a first century Jew would have read apocalyptic literature. Isaiah 13 will serve as a good example.

Isaiah 13 is about God's judgment on ancient Babylon. This prophecy was fulfilled in 539 BCE when Cyrus, the king of the Medes, marched his army over to Babylon and captured the city. Yet, look at the apocalyptic language used. It is symbolic, universal, and exaggerated.

Isaiah 13:8
They will be dismayed: pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor.

13:10-11
For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity.

13:13
Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the Lord of hosts in the day of his fierce anger.

Now, did the stars, sun, and moon darken in 539 BCE? Did the whole world get punished in 539 BCE? Did the earth shake off its foundation in 539 BCE?

No. No. And no. Does this mean the prophecy was wrong or misleading? No. This prophecy was not intended to be read literally. The same goes for all apocalyptic literature - including the Olivet Discourse and Revelation.

ewq1938 said:

No, he said nothing about the temple of Jerusalem being destroyed in fact the only damage that happens to Jerusalem is from an earthquake and that only causes ten percent of the city to fall.

No human army destroys all of the city in any part of Revelation.



Sure but they didn't live to witness the majority of events Revelation describes. The message was simply delivered in the first century but wouldn't be relevant event wise until the last generation and we don't know if we live in that generation or not.

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Here is a fun exercise. Read the Olivet Discourse and underline the word "you" when you come across it. It is used dozens of times.

For example, in Luke 21:20 it states, "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near."

Then ask yourself. Who is the "you" referring to? Is it referring to unknown modern Christians living thousands of years in the future or was it the people Jesus was speaking to

Modern Christians have a bad habit of thinking the text is talking to them, but they forget that they are reading someone else's mail.

ewq1938 said:

It's also fun to underline all the things in the OD and related Revelation passages that did not happen in the lives of the disciples.

The "you" is people of a future generation.

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If I was standing in front of you and said, "When you see an army surround Dallas, know that it is about to be destroyed." You would think I was talking to someone in the distant future?

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Immediately after the tribulation will the sun and moon go dark and the stars will fall from heaven, all being global events. Did that happen the first century? No.

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Alright, now I know you haven't been reading my posts. This exact same thing is said about Babylon's destruction in Isaiah. I already mentioned this and you bypassed it.

Isaiah 13:10, 13
For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light...I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place.

This is apocalyptic language for divine judgement. This is a fulfilled prophecy that happened in 539 BCE. Yet, none of these things happened literally when Cyrus captured Babylon. Please explain why it can happen in the Isaiah prophecy figuratively, but not in the Olivet Discourse prophecy?

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

All the tribes of the Earth mourning and seeing Christ coming from heaven to the Earth. Again, a global event. Did that happen in the first century? No.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The gathering of the elect by angels in the first century? No. The disciples would have been the elect of their generation and they certainly weren't gathered by angels. This is the same event known as the Rapture but it didn't happen in the first century and hasn't happened yet.

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


"all these things" includes verses 29-31 which shows the second coming and the gathering of the saints. Other scriptures tell us this timeframe is also the time when the dead in Christ are resurrected. Did either of those things take place in the first century? No.

None of those things happened in the lives of the disciples proving he was NOT talking about their generation not passing before "all these things" occurred.

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All those things were fulfilled. That generation experienced it. The Olivet Discourse and Revelation are speaking about the Jewish Wars that happened soon after these prophecies were given in 70 CE. Global and universal language is used hyperbolically in apocalyptic language.

The Greek version of Esther in the apocrypha has an excellent example of the apocalyptic genre.

In Mordecai's dream we read:

Greek Esther 11:5-7, 11
Noises and confusion, thunders and earthquake, tumult on the earth! Then two great dragons came forward, both ready to fight, and they roared terribly. At their roaring every nation prepared for war, to fight against the righteous nation. It was a day of darkness and gloom, of tribulation and distress, affliction and great tumult on the earth! ... and at their outcry, as though from a tiny spring, there came a great river, with abundant water; light came, and the sun rose, and the lowly were exalted and devoured those held in honor.

The best part about this is that this vision is interpreted in the same book!

Greek Esther 10:6-9
There was the little spring that became a river, and there was light and sun and abundant water—the river is Esther, whom the king married and made queen. The two dragons are Haman and myself. The nations are those that gathered to destroy the name of the Jews. And my nation, this is Israel, who cried out to God and was saved. The Lord has saved his people; the Lord has rescued us from all these evils; God has done great signs and wonders, wonders that have never happened among the nations.

The vision is essentially the story of Esther told in apocalyptic language. As you can see, global language is used hyperbolically by this author. Also, there is a heavy use of symbolism.

Chris V++ said:

Well whether Rome or Jerusalem, those inhabitants are/were not without hope. A voice from Heaven says "Come out of her, my people.' implying some of His people are in fact living/lived therein, and apparently have/had the opportunity to 'come out of her. ' Rev 18:4

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Sounds like you want it to mean Rome, regardless of the Scriptures. That speaks of agenda.

A simple read in Ezekiel 16 reveals how God married Jerusalem, and then later called her a harlot for playing the harlot against Him. And it was suggested for you to read Ezekiel on that and compare to Revelation.

Davy said:

Sounds like you want it to mean Rome, regardless of the Scriptures. That speaks of agenda.

A simple read in Ezekiel 16 reveals how God married Jerusalem, and then later called her a harlot for playing the harlot against Him. And it was suggested for you to read Ezekiel on that and compare to Revelation.

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I repent of everything I said and apologize if I've caused offence. I may have been influenced by too many radical preachers and have drawn too many conclusions.

Chris V++ said:

I repent of everything I said and apologize if I've caused offence. I may have been influenced by too many radical preachers and have drawn too many conclusions.

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You know, I was just thinking of starting a thread on that very matter, i.e., the cause God's Word reveals for all the confusion happening among the Churches today. It's a subject I have never heard in any Church I've ever attended. And I guarantee no Church where I live would allow me to preach on it from God's Word. It definitely is not PC, but it is God's Word as written, which shows He wants us to be aware (see Jude 1).

HTacianas said:

Rev 17:1 - And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:

Rev 17:2 - With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication...

Rev 17:4 - And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Rev 17:5 - And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

The answer to the question is found in Ezekiel:

Eze 16:2 - Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations...

Eze 16:3 - And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem...

Eze 16:14 - ...thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD...

Eze 16:15 - But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was...

Eze 16:26 - Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger...

Eze 16:28 - Thou hast played the harlot also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied...

Eze 16:29 - Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith...

Eze 16:30 - How weak is thine heart, saith the Lord GOD, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman...

Eze 16:35 - Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD...

Eze 16:36 - Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

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AT one point in the history of Christianity there were well-know Catholic scholars protesting some things in Catholic church and they had a certain historicist view of those verses in
Rev chapter 17.

Davy said:

You know, I was just thinking of starting a thread on that very matter, i.e., the cause God's Word reveals for all the confusion happening among the Churches today. It's a subject I have never heard in any Church I've ever attended. And I guarantee no Church where I live would allow me to preach on it from God's Word. It definitely is not PC, but it is God's Word as written, which shows He wants us to be aware (see Jude 1).

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I was evangelized by what most would consider a zealot (God love him) with his own arsenal of guns and a bunker's supply of Chick tracts on every conceivable subject. I finally had that final pivotal 'born again' moment when I flipped on the TV in the middle of the day right at the moment in the movie The Mission when the DeNiro character ended his penance and became convert. This troubled my friend a little since it was a Catholic ish story. I figure people are flawed, confused, and opinionated and and one point the Spirit takes over and reels us in regardless, at least that is what happened in my experience.

A number of surprising sources

from: http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V1.htm

Introduction

This council was summoned by Pope Pius IX by the bull Aeterni Patris of 29 June 1868. The first session was held in St. Peter's basilica on 8 December 1869 in the presence and under the presidency of the Pope.
…
Session 2 : 6 January 1870

Profession of faith
…
12. I acknowledge the Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church, the mother and mistress of all the Churches [1].

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