UNDER THE LAW!

HARK! · Mar 25, 2020

SkyWriting said:
You just claimed that no one else ever used it.
God is not so shallow as to allow TRUTH to be imparted to only one writer.

"Paul is the only one in the Bible who uses this phrase.
It's found 11 times in his writings."

And revealed to no other person,
in history? God is bigger than that.

"Paul is the only one in the Bible who uses this phrase.
It's found 11 times in his writings."

not under law · Mar 25, 2020

SkyWriting said:
You just claimed that no one else ever used it.
God is not so shallow as to allow TRUTH to be imparted to only one writer.

"Paul is the only one in the Bible who uses this phrase.
It's found 11 times in his writings."

And revealed to no other person,
in history? God is bigger than that.

It is true that only Paul used the term ''not under law'' but as it refers to not being under righteousness of obeying the law the same thing can be read by others with different words:
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. John16:7-11

In the above Jesus said in regard to sin not believing in him, he did not say in regard to sin transgressing the law. Righteousness was available because he was going to his father where he would be an atonement for believers sins. So the believer was under righteousness of faith in Christ, not under law in this regard
Jesus himself said he was limited as to what he could teach the disciples for the Holy Spirit had not yet been sent to them, they could as yet not bear greater knowledge, but when he did come he would guide them into all truth. Paul simply expanded on the gospel message. The believers righteousness is faith in Christ, not being under law/righteousness of obeying the law

SkyWriting · Mar 25, 2020

HARK! said:
"Paul is the only one in the Bible who uses this phrase.
It's found 11 times in his writings."

He was not very bright. One of the worst sinners ever in history.

HARK! · Mar 25, 2020

SkyWriting said:
He was not very bright. One of the worst sinners ever in history.

Proof?

Saint Steven · Mar 25, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Mt 25:46
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Kind of hard to get around this one:

(CLV) 1Co 9:21
to those without law as without law (not being without God's law, but legally (εννομος) Christ's), that I should be gaining those without law.

...But somehow they seem to skim right over it.

Good, I'm glad someone finally brought this up. I read a bit of the topic. It looked like a guaranteed headache, so I stayed out of it.

There are three laws being discussed. All in need of definitions, or at a minimum, the recognition that the Apostle is differentiating between the three.
- the law
- God's law (not the same as the law) and...
- Christ's law (not the same as the law, or God's law)

parousia70 · Mar 25, 2020

HARK! said:
I gave you scripture. You gave me your interpretation, of unspecified scripture.

Rather, you gave me interpretation of OT scripture based on your bias, but against apostolic teaching.

Show me the NT, APOSTOLIC testimony that confirms your belief that there will be future levitical, ceremonial Blood animal sacrifices for atonement of sins in a future Temple complex in, as you said, The "kingdom to Come" (A position Jesus and the Apostles all taught AGAINST.)

Until you do so, your position remains not only unapostolic, but anti-apostolic, and anti-christic, and therefore must be rejected.

You deny scripture? If so, you deny the teachings of Yahshua.

So far between us, you appear to be the only one denying apostolic testimony.

Blade · Mar 25, 2020

I can't explain it better the sweet sweet holy Spirit did through Paul. Christ said He didn't come to abolish the law.. He came to fulfill it. Something no man could do. Yet.. some treat this as if what Christ DID never happened.

What Jesus did.. the Fathers ways are written in/on my heart. Hes never treated me like a puppet or a slave. Never told me once to keep anything.. to do anything. He never wanted that. I WANT to do it.. its AWESOME!

He fulfilled the law..its done.

Dkh587 · Mar 25, 2020

Blade said:
I can't explain it better the sweet sweet holy Spirit did through Paul. Christ said He didn't come to abolish the law.. He came to fulfill it. Something no man could do. Yet.. some treat this as if what Christ DID never happened.

What Jesus did.. the Fathers ways are written in/on my heart. Hes never treated me like a puppet or a slave. Never told me once to keep anything.. to do anything. He never wanted that. I WANT to do it.. its AWESOME!

He fulfilled the law..its done.

fulfilling the law is something that can be done every day. You share the misunderstanding that many others do in regards to what it means to fulfill the law. It’s something that anybody can do.

Romans 13:8-10

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Saint Steven · Mar 25, 2020

Blade said:
Christ said He didn't come to abolish the law.

Not exactly.
It says "the Law or the Prophets", meaning the books, not the law itself.
After his resurrection he explained what he meant. (compare with Matt.5:17 below)
The fulfillment was prophetic.

Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

HARK! · Mar 25, 2020

parousia70 said:
Rather, you gave me interpretation of OT scripture based on your bias, but against apostolic teaching.

Show me the NT, APOSTOLIC testimony that confirms your belief that there will be future levitical, ceremonial Blood animal sacrifices for atonement of sins in a future Temple complex in, as you said, The "kingdom to Come" (A position Jesus and the Apostles all taught AGAINST.)

Until you do so, your position remains not only unapostolic, but anti-apostolic, and anti-christic, and therefore must be rejected.

I'm glad you asked. I'm in the process of putting together a thread on this subject; but my studies are in the very early stages.

Here are some of my notes:

Ezekiel 43:

19 And you have given unto the priests, the Levites, who [are] of the seed of Zadok--who are near unto Me, an affirmation of the Lord Yahweh, to serve Me--a calf from the herd, for a sin-offering." 20 And you have taken of its blood, and have put it on its four horns, and on the four corners of its border, and on the border round about, and have cleansed it, and purified it." 21 And you have taken the bullock of the sin-offering, and have burnt it in the appointed place of the house at the outside of the sanctuary." 22 And on the second day you do bring near a kid of the goats, a perfect one, for a sin-offering, and they have cleansed the altar, as they cleansed [it] for the bullock." 23 In your finishing cleansing, you do bring near a calf, a son of the herd, a perfect one, and a ram out of the flock, a perfect one." 24 And you have brought them near before Yahweh, and the priests have cast upon them salt, and have caused them to go up, a burnt-offering to Yahweh." 25 Seven days you do prepare a goat for a sin-offering daily, and a bullock, a son of the herd, and a ram out of the flock, perfect ones, do they prepare." 26 Seven days they purify the altar, and have cleansed it, and filled their hand." 27 And the days are completed, and it has come to pass on the eighth day, and henceforth, the priests prepare on the altar your burnt-offerings and your peace-offerings, and I have accepted you--an affirmation of the Lord Yahweh.'"

(CLV) Isa 56:7
I will bring them also to My holy mountain And make them rejoice in My house of prayer; Their ascent offerings and their sacrifices They shall offer up for acceptance on My altar, For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.

(CLV) Jer 33:18
As for the Levitical priests there shall not be cut off a man from before Me who offers up the ascent offering and fumes the approach present and offers sacrifices for all the days.

(CLV) Zch 14:20
In that day there shall be on the horse shades: Holy to Yahweh. And the pots in the house of Yahweh will be like the sprinkling bowls before the altar.

(CLV) Zch 14:21
And every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will come to be holy to Yahweh of hosts. And all who are sacrificing will come and take of them and cook in them. And no longer shall there be a trafficker in the house of Yahweh of hosts, in that day.

(CLV) Mal 3:3
And He will sit like a refiner and a cleanser of silver. And He will cleanse the sons of Levi, and purify them like gold and like silver. And they will come to be for Yahweh, bringing close the approach present in righteousness.

(CLV) Mal 3:4
Then the approach present of Judah and Jerusalem will be congenial to Yahweh as in the days of the eon, and as in former years.

HARK! · Mar 25, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Christ's law (not the same as the law, or God's law)

Paul speaks of many categories of law; but the evidence seems to support that Messiah's law is YHWH's law.

I plan on starting a thread on this subject. My notes are in their infancy; but here they are:

(CLV) Jn 17:6
I manifest Thy name to the men whom Thou givest Me out of the world. Thine they were, and to Me Thou givest them, and Thy word they have kept.

(CLV) Jn 7:16
Jesus, then, answered them and said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His Who sends Me.

(CLV) Mt 23:1
Then Jesus speaks to the throngs and to His disciples,

(CLV) Mt 23:2
saying, "On Moses' seat are seated the scribes and the Pharisees.

(CLV) Mt 23:3
All, then, whatever they should be saying to you, do and keep it. Yet according to their acts do not be doing, for they are saying and not doing.

(CLV) Mt 28:19
Going, then, disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,

(CLV) Mt 28:20
teaching them to be keeping all, whatever I direct you. And lo! I am with you all the days till the conclusion of the eon! Amen!"

Dkh587 · Mar 25, 2020

not under law said:
Did the leaders of the Pharisees of Jesus day love God? They didn't want to obey the entire law, true, but what is often termed the legalistic law they were most eager to follow

No, they didn’t love God. They were more interested in obeying their own commandments, and not God’s. In fact, their commandments caused them to disobey God’s commandments Mark 7:1-13

HARK! · Mar 25, 2020

Dkh587 said:
No, they didn’t love God.

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,

Saint Steven · Mar 26, 2020

HARK! said:
Paul speaks of many categories of law; but the evidence seems to support that Messiah's law is YHWH's law.

Galatians 3:1-3
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? ... After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

Saint Steven · Mar 26, 2020

HARK! said:
Paul speaks of many categories of law...

Categories?
Many categories of law?
Just because a phrase has the word "law" in it does not automatically connect it to the law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.
As soon as you add the word "of" behind "the law" (the law of...) , it no longer has anything to do with the law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.

And many times a reference to "the law" (the Law - capital "L") means the books. I love this scripture which uses both.

Romans 3:21
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

Shrewd Manager · Mar 26, 2020

HARK! said:
Yahshua set an example of how for us to behave in a way that is in the father's will.

There's your problem methinks. Jesus rejected the behaviourist legalistic model as it leads to superficiality (unrighteous judgment) and hypocrisy (leaven of Pharisees) - Lord have mercy. The new covenant is the revelation of grace and truth, teaching us to focus on our internal attitudes towards identity (the be-attitudes).

We no longer need to 'comply' with a bunch of rules, they'll just make us blind and sinful (the 'law of sin'), serving 2 masters and in a state of constant rebellion (Lord deliver us). Instead we 'step into' the Kingdom, we drink of the life-giving water of the perfect faith of Christ, secure in the assurance that He has done it, God has shown us He is the source of all value, and He'll never let us go, no matter how dark it gets.

HARK! · Mar 26, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Categories?
Many categories of law?
Just because a phrase has the word "law" in it does not automatically connect it to the law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.
As soon as you add the word "of" behind "the law" (the law of...) , it no longer has anything to do with the law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.

And many times a reference to "the law" (the Law - capital "L") means the books. I love this scripture which uses both.

Romans 3:21
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

That is my point.

Paul mentions at least 8 categories of law in his letter to the Romans alone.

The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
A Different Law (Ch 7)
The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
God's Law (Ch 7)
The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)
The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)

Speaking of righteousness; let's take a look at what Paul has to say about his law of righteousness.

31 Yet Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, into a law of righteousness does not outstrip." 32 Wherefore? Seeing that it is not out of faith, but as out of law works, they stumble on the stumbling stone, 33 according as it is written: Lo! I am laying in Zion a Stumbling Stone and a Snare Rock, And the one believing on Him shall not be disgraced."

Well, there seems to be quite a contrast between the Law of Righteousness, and the righteousness of YHWH.

HARK! · Mar 26, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
There's your problem methinks.

Shrewd Manager said:
We no longer need to 'comply' with a bunch of rules

(CLV) Mt 7:21
"Not everyone saying to Me `Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.
(CLV) Mt 7:22
Many will be declaring to Me in that day, `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'

(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'

not under law · Mar 26, 2020

The Law of Faith (Ch 3)

Righteousness/justification of faith in Christ

A Different Law (Ch 7)

A law of the flesh

The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)

God’s law

The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)

Transgressing God’s laws

God's Law (Ch 7)

The law handed down at Sanai

The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)

love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control

The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)

Righteousness of obeying the law handed down at Sanai

The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works

Or righteousnes of obeying the law

HARK! · Mar 26, 2020

not under law said:
The Law of Faith (Ch 3)

Righteousness/justification of faith in Christ

A Different Law (Ch 7)

A law of the flesh

The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)

God’s law

The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)

Transgressing God’s laws

God's Law (Ch 7)

The law handed down at Sanai

The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)

love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control

The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)

Righteousness of obeying the law handed down at Sanai

The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works

Or righteousnes of obeying the law

You would do well to go and read these chapters, before speculating on what Paul meant by these terms.

Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 3
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 7
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 8
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 9

UNDER THE LAW!

שמע

Well-Known Member

The Librarian

שמע

You can call me Steve

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Veteran

Well-Known Member

You can call me Steve

שמע

שמע

Well-Known Member

שמע

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

שמע

שמע

Well-Known Member

שמע

Similar threads