Beware of Pre-Tribbers Doomsday Hype

Davy

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2) About that passage in Luke you seem to be saying, unless I misunderstood you, that Jesus' description of events before His return are about sorrows and tribulation, but one of the events isn't? But there's nothing in the text to indicate that; in fact just the opposite, Jesus says "A, B, C, D, all because E"; and you want it to mean "First A, B, C, D, and later E". Why?

The Luke 21 version is giving some different info. All 3 versions give a little bit different info.

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

KJV

Matt 24:15-16
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
KJV

Mark 13:14
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

KJV

In all 3 of those examples our Lord Jesus tells those living in Judea to flee to the mountains when they see those events. The Luke 21 version is different, because He is telling them to flee the sudden destruction that He is going to do on that area on the last day of this world, which is what that "days of vengeance" is about, and why all things are fulfilled when that happens (meaning the end of this world).

In the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 versions, we know there is a group of events to occur once the "abomination of desolation" is setup. We know the "sudden destruction" on the "day of the Lord" is not yet right then, but the time of "great tribulation" will be when that abomination is setup. So the Luke 21 example is actually a look forward to the last day with Armageddon, the armies surrounding Jerusalem so God can pour out His cup of wrath upon them per Zeph.3:8. But the Matt.24 and Mark 13 version of fleeing Judea is about the pseudo-Messiah setting up the abomination, i.e., the start of the tribulation.
 
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Jamdoc

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Yet there's a lot of truth in what he says, the Jewish wedding tradition is used by pre-trib saying the bride is the Church, when Christ's bride is actually Jerusalem per Revelation 21. We are the children of the bridechamber (Matt.9:15), and are to be like virgins waiting on the Bridegroom to receive her Bride (Jerusalem).

And pre-trib's teaching of the 'rapture' is specifically... the 1 Thess.4 chapter, isolating it's timing from the "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15.

I also read in Revelation 21 that the city of New Jerusalem is the bride, not specifically the church, but specifically the city. I don't know if it also includes all the people or maybe all of the new creation itself, but it's New Jerusalem that is adorned as the bride.
 
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Jamdoc

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The Church is the bride. the new Jerusalem is where the Church dwells. He's not marrying a city.

As for the timing, I provided more passages. He flat out dismissed them with ignorance. You're free to pretend like they don't exist as well, but it won't make them go away.

You'll have to explain how any of those passages specify a timing to the rapture that is better explained than Matthew 24 where Jesus says it is after the tribulation. Who's word should I trust more, yours, or Jesus'?
 
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JacksBratt

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The Church is the bride. the new Jerusalem is where the Church dwells. He's not marrying a city.

As for the timing, I provided more passages. He flat out dismissed them with ignorance. You're free to pretend like they don't exist as well, but it won't make them go away.
Two thumbs way up for that post.
 
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Davy

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The Church is the bride. the new Jerusalem is where the Church dwells. He's not marrying a city.

As for the timing, I provided more passages. He flat out dismissed them with ignorance. You're free to pretend like they don't exist as well, but it won't make them go away.

The new Jerusalem is the Bride, and the Lamb's wife, as written...

Rev 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

KJV

Rev 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
KJV

That is not up for debate.
 
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Davy

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I don't know where you get your information, but I get the bulk of my timing info from Revelation 12:1-8, 1 Corinthians 15:52 and Isaiah 26:17-21, but correlating passages would include 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 and Micah 4:9-10, but those are not primary passages concerning timing, more of a secondary nature.

Maybe the actual truth is that you don't know anything about pretrib if you think there is only one passage.

Let's look at the Scriptures you provided as a proof for the pre-trib rapture. I will only display those Scripture areas you quoted:

1.
Rev 12:1-8
12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The above five verses are actually a short, short summary of the whole Bible. That "woman" represents the Seed of the woman in Genesis that Christ would be born through. Those sun, moon, and stars symbols were first given in Genesis 37. The red dragon drawing a third of the stars (angels) with that old beast kingdom that had only seven crowns happened in the old world, when Satan first rebelled against God. By the time of the Seed of the woman was setup in God's Garden, that old serpent (dragon) was ready to devour her Seed. Her Child would be The Christ Who is to eventually rule all nations with a rod of iron.


So all that section of verses 1-5 is a summary of events from the time of Satan's old rebellion to the future "thousand years" reign of Lord Jesus after His return. There is nothing there about a pre-trib rapture of the Church.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

That 1260 days period is about the first part of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of 7 years. The tribulation period is the latter one in verse 14 where the woman is protected for 1260 days from the waters as a flood out of the mouth of the serpent.


7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
KJV


That event is for when Satan as the coming Antichrist will be booted out of the heavenly down to earth and will be the pseudo-Christ working the great signs and wonders in Jerusalem. That... is when the time of great tribulation begins, as shown in the 13-15 verses. So no pre-trib rapture message there at all.

2.
1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

KJV

The pre-trib rapture school teaches that "last trump" event doesn't happen when Jesus comes for His Church prior to the tribulation. They instead teach that event is for Jesus' coming 'with' His Church after the tribulation. They teach TWO SEPARATE COMINGS of Christ Jesus, which of course is false, for God's Word only supports ONE return of Christ to gather His Church and defeat His enemies.

Trying to use that 1 Cor.15:52 Scripture as proof for a pre-trib rapture shows you don't even really know what the pre-trib rapture school teaches regarding their own doctrine!

3.
Isa 26:17-21
17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

The 'travail with child' metaphor is for those who are deceived. Apostle Paul showed this in 1 Thess.5 about those who will be saying, "Peace and safety".


19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

KJV

That is about the LAST DAY when Jesus comes to gather His Church AND defeat His enemies at Armageddon (Rev.16:15-17; Rev.19:11-21). For that to be about a pre-trib rapture, it would have to show Jesus coming to gather His Church PRIOR to the tribulation that happens way before all that. So you cannot simply use that for a pre-trib rapture theory.

4.
1 Thess 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
KJV


Those events, when the deceived will be saying that, "Peace and safety", is DURING the tribulation. That "sudden destruction" upon them comes on the day of Christ's return to gather His Church, and that day He does that is the LAST DAY of this present world, not prior to the tribulation. That is when that "day of the Lord" per the OT prophets will happen, on the LAST DAY. So you are confused about that Scripture also. It is not supporting a rapture prior to the tribulation, which is what the pre-trib rapture doctrine teaches.

5.
Mic 4:9-10
9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counseller perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.

10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.
KJV


That was historically about Judah's captivity to historical Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar. God would eventually call Cyrus to free them, and He called Cyrus "His anointed" in Isaiah 45:1. Cyrus represents Jesus coming to free chosen Israel from a second metaphorical Babylon captivity, if you're wanting to use that as a blueprint for the end. It does not support a fly away pre-trib rapture though.
 
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SeventyOne

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The new Jerusalem is the Bride, and the Lamb's wife, as written...

Rev 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

KJV

Rev 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
KJV

That is not up for debate.

Of course, it's up for debate. The city is the vessel carrying the bride. When you are at a wedding and the bride arrives in a Buick, and someone says 'the bride has arrived', are you foolish enough to assume the groom is marrying the Buick? Because that's exactly what you are doing here.
 
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SeventyOne

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Let's look at the Scriptures you provided as a proof for the pre-trib rapture. I will only display those Scripture areas you quoted:

1.
Rev 12:1-8
12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The above five verses are actually a short, short summary of the whole Bible. That "woman" represents the Seed of the woman in Genesis that Christ would be born through. Those sun, moon, and stars symbols were first given in Genesis 37. The red dragon drawing a third of the stars (angels) with that old beast kingdom that had only seven crowns happened in the old world, when Satan first rebelled against God. By the time of the Seed of the woman was setup in God's Garden, that old serpent (dragon) was ready to devour her Seed. Her Child would be The Christ Who is to eventually rule all nations with a rod of iron.


So all that section of verses 1-5 is a summary of events from the time of Satan's old rebellion to the future "thousand years" reign of Lord Jesus after His return. There is nothing there about a pre-trib rapture of the Church.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

That 1260 days period is about the first part of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of 7 years. The tribulation period is the latter one in verse 14 where the woman is protected for 1260 days from the waters as a flood out of the mouth of the serpent.


7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
KJV


That event is for when Satan as the coming Antichrist will be booted out of the heavenly down to earth and will be the pseudo-Christ working the great signs and wonders in Jerusalem. That... is when the time of great tribulation begins, as shown in the 13-15 verses. So no pre-trib rapture message there at all.

2.
1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

KJV

The pre-trib rapture school teaches that "last trump" event doesn't happen when Jesus comes for His Church prior to the tribulation. They instead teach that event is for Jesus' coming 'with' His Church after the tribulation. They teach TWO SEPARATE COMINGS of Christ Jesus, which of course is false, for God's Word only supports ONE return of Christ to gather His Church and defeat His enemies.

Trying to use that 1 Cor.15:52 Scripture as proof for a pre-trib rapture shows you don't even really know what the pre-trib rapture school teaches regarding their own doctrine!

3.
Isa 26:17-21
17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

The 'travail with child' metaphor is for those who are deceived. Apostle Paul showed this in 1 Thess.5 about those who will be saying, "Peace and safety".


19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

KJV

That is about the LAST DAY when Jesus comes to gather His Church AND defeat His enemies at Armageddon (Rev.16:15-17; Rev.19:11-21). For that to be about a pre-trib rapture, it would have to show Jesus coming to gather His Church PRIOR to the tribulation that happens way before all that. So you cannot simply use that for a pre-trib rapture theory.

4.
1 Thess 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
KJV


Those events, when the deceived will be saying that, "Peace and safety", is DURING the tribulation. That "sudden destruction" upon them comes on the day of Christ's return to gather His Church, and that day He does that is the LAST DAY of this present world, not prior to the tribulation. That is when that "day of the Lord" per the OT prophets will happen, on the LAST DAY. So you are confused about that Scripture also. It is not supporting a rapture prior to the tribulation, which is what the pre-trib rapture doctrine teaches.

5.
Mic 4:9-10
9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counseller perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.

10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.
KJV


That was historically about Judah's captivity to historical Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar. God would eventually call Cyrus to free them, and He called Cyrus "His anointed" in Isaiah 45:1. Cyrus represents Jesus coming to free chosen Israel from a second metaphorical Babylon captivity, if you're wanting to use that as a blueprint for the end. It does not support a fly away pre-trib rapture though.

I understand it's tough to understand a concept you've already rejected. It would take a lot of humility to consider such things in that light again.

Maybe someday soon, something will click and you'll think back on these passages you've just dismissed and understand the relationship to the topic at hand. But it better be quick, because the time is really short.
 
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JacksBratt

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I understand it's tough to understand a concept you've already rejected. It would take a lot of humility to consider such things in that light again.

Maybe someday soon, something will click and you'll think back on these passages you've just dismissed and understand the relationship to the topic at hand. But it better be quick, because the time is really short.
Two good posts...
 
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SeventyOne

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The new Jerusalem is the Bride, and the Lamb's wife, as written...

Rev 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

KJV

Rev 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
KJV

That is not up for debate.

This is the Bride…

Ephesians 5:29-32: For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

It is in this passage and the verses leading into it where the mystery is revealed that then God spoke in Genesis 2:24, that man would leave his mother and father, take a wife, and the two will become one flesh, that was in reference to Christ and the Church together, as husband and wife.


2Corinthians 11:2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

Here, Paul is telling us directly that we are betrothed to Christ, the husband of the Church.


Revelation 19:7-8 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

The Bride makes itself ready, clothing itself in fine linin, which we are told are deeds of the saints. Now, who does these deeds? The saints, the members of the Church. A city doesn’t do our deeds, we do them ourselves.

The Bride is clearly the Church. The New Jerusalem is the dwelling of the Church.
 
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SeventyOne

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This viewpoint puts the 5th seal martyrs waiting, not raised during the wrath of God.

I'm not exactly sure what your point is, but the scripture itself has them there waiting.

Revelation 6:12 "Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been."

Revelation 20:4 seems to be when that number to be killed is completed and their wait for the resurrection is over.
 
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Berean Tim

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I'm not exactly sure what your point is, but the scripture itself has them there waiting.

Revelation 6:12 "Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been."

Revelation 20:4 seems to be when that number to be killed is completed and their wait for the resurrection is over.
My point is they were killed during the 4 seals.
1st Thessalonians 4 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them
The Rapture hasn't happened yet
 
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SeventyOne

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My point is they were killed during the 4 seals.
1st Thessalonians 4 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them
The Rapture hasn't happened yet

No, it hasn't, but the 5th seal group is a very specific group. Their characteristics from Revelation 20 is they were beheaded, had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

Two different groups. The third phase of the harvest, or the gleanings, if you will.
 
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Berean Tim

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No, it hasn't, but the 5th seal group is a very specific group. Their characteristics from Revelation 20 is they were beheaded, had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

Two different groups. The third phase of the harvest, or the gleanings, if you will.
I misunderstood you then. I thought you position was the Rapture happens before the 1st Seal
 
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SeventyOne

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I misunderstood you then. I thought you position was the Rapture happens before the 1st Seal

That is my position. What we call the rapture would correspond to phase 2 of the harvest model, the primary harvest. It is the general resurrection where we are told simply that the living and dead "in Christ" are gathered. The seal 5 group are not a general group. We are given specific requirements for their inclusion.

In case you are curious, the first phase of the harvest were the firstfruits, which we are told by Paul that Christ was the firstfruits (1 Corinthians 15:23), and we also see those resurrected before us in Matthew 27:52-53.
 
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JacksBratt

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My point is they were killed during the 4 seals.
1st Thessalonians 4 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them
The Rapture hasn't happened yet
That's my question... How many would be still alive to meet in the air with those "dead, in Christ" who rose first?
 
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Davy

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This is the Bride…

Ephesians 5:29-32: For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

It is in this passage and the verses leading into it where the mystery is revealed that then God spoke in Genesis 2:24, that man would leave his mother and father, take a wife, and the two will become one flesh, that was in reference to Christ and the Church together, as husband and wife.


2Corinthians 11:2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

Here, Paul is telling us directly that we are betrothed to Christ, the husband of the Church.


Revelation 19:7-8 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

The Bride makes itself ready, clothing itself in fine linin, which we are told are deeds of the saints. Now, who does these deeds? The saints, the members of the Church. A city doesn’t do our deeds, we do them ourselves.

The Bride is clearly the Church. The New Jerusalem is the dwelling of the Church.

No, new Jerusalem is the Bride, as written.

What you are referring to is a SPIRITUAL METAPHOR that God used in Isaiah 54. That is where Paul got that from.

Isa 54:1-14
54:1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8 In a little wrath I hid My face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto Me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but My kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of My peace be removed, saith the LORD That hath mercy on thee.
11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.

12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
KJV

Per those Isaiah 54:11-14 verses we see He is talking about the new Jerusalem.
 
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SeventyOne

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No, new Jerusalem is the Bride, as written.

What you are referring to is a SPIRITUAL METAPHOR that God used in Isaiah 54. That is where Paul got that from.

Isa 54:1-14
54:1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8 In a little wrath I hid My face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto Me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but My kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of My peace be removed, saith the LORD That hath mercy on thee.
11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.

12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
KJV

Per those Isaiah 54:11-14 verses we see He is talking about the new Jerusalem.

Ok. If you really think God marries a building, I guess it makes sense to you. Bye.
 
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Davy

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I also read in Revelation 21 that the city of New Jerusalem is the bride, not specifically the church, but specifically the city. I don't know if it also includes all the people or maybe all of the new creation itself, but it's New Jerusalem that is adorned as the bride.

Ezekiel 16 is where the idea of God marrying Jerusalem comes from. I'm surprised that so few have read it.

Christ as our true Husband that Paul wanted to espouse the brethren to comes from Isaiah 54, which is about remaining spiritually chaste vs. those who become spiritual harlots. This idea God first applied to Jerusalem in Ezekiel 16, which in Isaiah 54 He eventually shows He is speaking of Jerusalem especially.
 
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