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mmksparbud

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I just read your post (#24). Still I cannot find the scripture that says that Michael raised Moses.

If you make a claim, you must quote the scripture that clearly supports your claim.

Jude 9
But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses...

There was an argument over the body of Moses and that is all this verse says.

How you get that an archangel raised the dead from this verse 9 in Jude, is puzzling.

I never said post 24 said Michael raised Moses. And that is the only thing you get out of that post? Doesn't bother you that a supposed angel was worshipped by men, that a supposed angel claimed to make the place Holy by His presence?? You consider angels that powerful do you? Jude only says Satan contented with Michael over the body of Mosses. What do you believe that means? Why is Satan upset about Mosses body. Mosses died and was buried. Then Mosses appears with Jesus at His translation. We do not believe that anyone goes to heaven or hell directly at death. They are sleeping until Jesus awakens them. That only leaves that Mosses was raised from the dead and Satan did not want that to happen.
 
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mmksparbud

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You spell 'worshipped' with only one 'p'.

Your confusing an archangel with the angel of the Lord.

The angel of the Lord speaks as God in the first person.

Michael does not represent God in the first person.


My spell check is not very good, my fingers are numb and painful and I tend to double letters and hit 2 keys at the same. Though I check for errors at least 3 times before sending, there are always errors I miss.
There are many names for Jesus--Angel of the Lord, Captain of the Host, the Lamb, Son of man, and about 200 others. Are you also of the opinion that Michael is such a powerful angel that he can call the angels "his angels?"

Rev_12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Jesus created them, they are His angels. Satan has his angels, they were created by Jesus but have given their allegiance to Satan so now they belong to him just as people who choose him over God
,are His and as Satan is the Prince of this world. You are free to have your opinion and so am I -- I'll stick with mine for now as no one has proven biblically otherwise.
 
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Dale

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Again, no angel will allow worship, Michael and the angel of the Lord have both accepted worship and they do indeed, merge into the Almighty is some passages. Jesus said no one has seen the Father, however, Jesus was the Creator of all and it is He that was the one that spoke to Moses and others for Jesus said none has ever heard the Father either.
Joh_5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.


Sparbud,

You keep making the claim that Michael the Archangel "accepted worship." I can find no verse in Scripture where this happens. Where did Michael accept anyone's worship?
 
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Dale

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When I point out that

Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary - author Bob McCabe

Albert Barnes
James Burton Coffman
Adam Clarke Commentary
Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary Bob McCabe
-- and R.C.Sproul

All agree that "the Angel of the Lord" instances they reference in the OT are in fact God the Son and that they are not saying this because of "Ellen White"

You respond that you have your reasons for not agreeing with them on the subject of the identity of "the Angel of the Lord"




1. Interesting that you are not dealing with texts that McCabe was pointing out to make the case.
2. your own discussion of it includes explanation "in some ways similar" to all the scholars I point to -

(2) He may be a momentary descent of God into visibility;

It is interesting that your post includes the idea that when the Bible speaks of "the Angel of the Lord" in some texts - it may well be "God" that is the being speaking (for various reasons you give in your own post).


Bob,

In several posts, you apparently assume the "the Angel of the Lord" is Michael the Archangel and from there you conclude that Michael is Jesus Christ. I know of no one besides you who says that "the Angel of the Lord" is Michael. Maybe other SDA's say it, but I know of no one else.

Why would anyone think that "the Angel of the Lord" is Michael the Archangel?
This onlyl makes sense if you are already making the assumption that Michael is Jesus.
 
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mmksparbud

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Sparbud,

You keep making the claim that Michael the Archangel "accepted worship." I can find no verse in Scripture where this happens. Where did Michael accept anyone's worship?


Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Captain of the host of the Lord---Archangel, same thing.

Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Exo 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
Exo 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
 
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mmksparbud

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Why would anyone think that "the Angel of the Lord" is Michael the Archangel?

This only makes sense if you are already making the assumption that Michael is Jesus.

LOL! Angel of the Lord--- archangel----both called angels.
 
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klutedavid

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Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Captain of the host of the Lord---Archangel, same thing.

Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Exo 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
Exo 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
You are missing an obvious point about the angel of the Lord.

The angel of the Lord has a secret name and it's not Gabriel or Michael.

Genesis 32:27-30
So he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” He said, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.” Then Jacob asked him and said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And he blessed him there. So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.”

The angel of the Lord does not reveal His identity here.
 
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klutedavid

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LOL! Angel of the Lord--- archangel----both called angels.
In chapter ten of Daniel someone of great importance is seen and talks with Daniel. Here He is described by Daniel below.

Daniel 10:4-6
On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, while I was by the bank of the great river, that is, the Tigris, I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a certain man dressed in linen, whose waist was girded with a belt of pure gold of Uphaz.
His body also was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a tumult.

This is not Gabriel as Daniel has already seen Gabriel.

Do you know who He is?
 
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Dale

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Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Captain of the host of the Lord---Archangel, same thing.

Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Exo 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
Exo 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.


The Book of Joshua doesn't say that the Man in Linen is Michael.
"Archangel" doesn't mean "Captain of the host." It is taken to mean an important angel but the Bible doesn't exactly define it.

If Jesus is Michael, why didn't the Book of Jude tell us that in the NT? Jesus had been revealed to the human race and certainly to Christians at that time. What's the secret if they are the same? Jude didn't say they were the same, so we must believe that they are not.
 
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mmksparbud

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You are missing an obvious point about the angel of the Lord.

The angel of the Lord has a secret name and it's not Gabriel or Michael.

Genesis 32:27-30
So he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” He said, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.” Then Jacob asked him and said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And he blessed him there. So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.”

The angel of the Lord does not reveal His identity here.


I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.” God the Father has never been seen nor heard. Jacob called Him God, he would never say that about an angel. It can be none other that Jesus. Angel of the Lord, Michael, Captain of the Host---all are Jesus.
Joh_5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
 
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pasifika

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I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.” God the Father has never been seen nor heard. Jacob called Him God, he would never say that about an angel. It can be none other that Jesus. Angel of the Lord, Michael, Captain of the Host---all are Jesus.
Joh_5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Hello, Hosea 12:4 state that Jacob was struggle or wrestle with the angel..
 
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mmksparbud

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In chapter ten of Daniel someone of great importance is seen and talks with Daniel. Here He is described by Daniel below.

Daniel 10:4-6
On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, while I was by the bank of the great river, that is, the Tigris, I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a certain man dressed in linen, whose waist was girded with a belt of pure gold of Uphaz.
His body also was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a tumult.

This is not Gabriel as Daniel has already seen Gabriel.

Do you know who He is?

Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev_1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Daniel had a vision of Jesus:
Dan 10:9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.
Dan 10:10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.
Dan 10:11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

The angel that stood him upright was Gabriel, he was sent to Daniel several times. Gabriel is the one that explains things to Daniel.

It was, however not Jesus that brought him up unto his feet.
 
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mmksparbud

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Hello, Hosea 12:4 state that Jacob was struggle or wrestle with the angel..

Hos 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
Hos 12:4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;
Hos 12:5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial.
It was Jesus.
 
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pasifika

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Hos 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
Hos 12:4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;
Hos 12:5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial.
It was Jesus.
You don't think it was God who was in the angel?
 
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klutedavid

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Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev_1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Daniel had a vision of Jesus:
Dan 10:9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.
Dan 10:10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.
Dan 10:11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

The angel that stood him upright was Gabriel, he was sent to Daniel several times. Gabriel is the one that explains things to Daniel.

It was, however not Jesus that brought him up unto his feet.
Where in chapter ten of Daniel does it say that Gabriel was talking?

Jesus was the one talking to Daniel in chapter ten.
 
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mmksparbud

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You don't think it was God who was in the angel?

Joh_5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
 
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mmksparbud

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Where in chapter ten of Daniel does it say that Gabriel was talking?

Jesus was the one talking to Daniel in chapter ten.


Dan 10:11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.
Dan 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Daniel was always the one that explained things to Daniel. Jesus was the vision. Daniel raised him up.

But, you are certainly free to believe anything else you want. I'm not holding a gun to your head. Just stating how I see it.
 
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klutedavid

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Dan 10:11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.
Dan 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Daniel was always the one that explained things to Daniel. Jesus was the vision. Daniel raised him up.

But, you are certainly free to believe anything else you want. I'm not holding a gun to your head. Just stating how I see it.
The man in the vision is speaking to Daniel.

Daniel 10:9
But I heard the sound of his words...

See mmsparbud, Daniel heard Jesus speaking.

Daniel 10:11
...and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you.

Jesus has just arrived and Daniel sees Him and hears His words.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Jesus is speaking to Daniel.

Have a look at the dreadful condition of Daniel after seeing Jesus, Daniel is face down on the floor and cannot even breathe.
 
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mmksparbud

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The man in the vision is speaking to Daniel.

Daniel 10:9
But I heard the sound of his words...

See mmsparbud, Daniel heard Jesus speaking.

Daniel 10:11
...and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you.

Jesus has just arrived and Daniel sees Him and hears His words.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Jesus is speaking to Daniel.

Have a look at the dreadful condition of Daniel after seeing Jesus, Daniel is face down on the floor and cannot even breathe.

Yah, Gabriel was just sent to explain, Jesus doesn't do the explaining. Gabriel always does that. Daniel was face down on the ground after seeing Jesus, Daniel strengthened him and set him upright, If it was Jesus, he'd of fallen face down again.
 
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klutedavid

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Yah, Gabriel was just sent to explain, Jesus doesn't do the explaining. Gabriel always does that. Daniel was face down on the ground after seeing Jesus, Daniel strengthened him and set him upright, If it was Jesus, he'd of fallen face down again.
I showed you where the text says that Jesus was now speaking to Daniel. There is no mention of Gabriel in chapter ten.

This is another vision and it does not say that Gabriel is speaking.

Jesus is still speaking at the end of chapter eleven.
 
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